Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

Yes

But it's not women only.
It's everyone

Got it!

[Spiderfan001]

Sadly all I can remember from that time period is a sense of exasperation and discomfort

I liked everything before AvX.It was fun to see how. they managed at the brink, there was a real sense of danger and every death felt so impactful.

[Grinning Soul]

But the entire issue to me I guess is him looking at everything that has happened leading upto this with no bias or clouding his judgement.
Hence the dehumanization.Hence the calling by hair colors, etc.

Cool, but if nothing is clouding his judgement, Jean's presence readjusting the universe forever should still be more impactful than mere need, no?

[Spiderfan001]

Cool, but if nothing is clouding his judgement, Jean's presence readjusting the universe forever should still be more impactful than mere need, no?

What do you mean?

[Grinning Soul]

What do you mean?

Here's how I see it: Scott is watching events in his past and in his present happening at the same time. He's not emotionally affected by them at all. The perspective he is presenting in the narration is what he felt at the moment when those things happened. So Jean's slight presence readjusting the universe forever is how it felt to him at that moment he met her. But that is also true when it comes to Emma: she was everything Jean wasn't and everything he needed, at the moment of the affair.

As far as I understood, you see it differently: you see it as his having a look at those events without bias and judgement, correct? But if so, if it is true that Emma is everything that Jean isn't and everything he needs, it is also true that Jean's slight presence readjusts the universe forever. And, especially when you consider that it is the perspective of a super-human-Phoenix-powered intellect, readjusting the universe forever should mean she has a bigger impact on him. Meaning: Jean is not simply and emotional need, she way beyond that.

[andreikes]

Grindr advertising girl

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[Spiderfan001]

Here's how I see it: Scott is watching events in his past and in his present happening at the same time. He's not emotionally affected by them at all. The perspective he is presenting in the narration is what he felt at the moment when those things happened. So Jean's slight presence readjusting the universe forever is how it felt to him at that moment he met her. But that is also true when it comes to Emma: she was everything Jean wasn't and everything he needed, at the moment of the affair.

As far as I understood, you see it differently: you see it as his having a look at those events without bias and judgement, correct? But if so, if it is true that Emma is everything that Jean isn't and everything he needs, it is also true that Jean's slight presence readjusts the universe forever. And, especially when you consider that it is the perspective of a super-human-Phoenix-powered intellect, readjusting the universe forever should mean she has a bigger impact on him. Meaning: Jean is not simply and emotional need, she way beyond that.

I think you understand where I come from.But one thing you missed:-

I think he is telling us what is happening at the moments he is going through from a unbiased 3rd person prespective.
Yes.At that moment when he chose Emma he needed someone who would help him go to the darker side of things because he at that moment felt it was necessary and in retrospective at the end of the issue it was for him.
Of course.Jean has a big role to play in the X-men and specially for the phoenix.
I still don't understand the last sentence.

[Grinning Soul]

I think you understand where I come from.But one thing you missed:-

I think he is telling us what is happening at the moments he is going through from a unbiased 3rd person prespective.
Yes.At that moment when he chose Emma he needed someone who would help him go to the darker side of things because he at that moment felt it was necessary and in retrospective at the end of the issue it was for him.
Of course.Jean has a big role to play in the X-men and specially for the phoenix.
I still don't understand the last sentence.

I quoted this so many times I don't know if you've read it already (and I apologise if you have).

Erich Fromm: "Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says 'I need you because I love you.'"

That's what I meant. When the reason for loving someone is a need, that's immature love. Scott is talking about a "need".

[Spiderfan001]

I quoted this so many times I don't know if you've read it already (and I apologise if you have).

Erich Fromm: "Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says 'I need you because I love you.'"

That's what I meant. When the reason for loving someone is a need, that's immature love. Scott is talking about a "need".

Haven't read it or don't remember if I have.Nice quote.

Oh it's immature all right.
And I would say it's not love at that time, just a need.
She was the person who would go with him to the boundaries he would cross, Jean would try to stop him.
I think that's the bottom line.

[Grinning Soul]

Haven't read it or don't remember if I have.Nice quote.

Oh it's immature all right.
And I would say it's not love at that time, just a need.
She was the person who would go with him to the boundaries he would cross, Jean would try to stop him.
I think that's the bottom line.

I think Jean would only try to stop him (EDIT: by trying to convince him, not forcing him) if it would be harmful to him, though. She would never want to limit him in any way.

Look, Emma and Scott did love each other. She fell during the affair. For him it came later, when they were in a relationship already. I never denied that.

I just don't think it invalidates his relationship with Jean. Neither the affair or the relationship with Emma that came after Jean died and pushed him.

This whole discussion was really about how it started: in an abusive note that, in my opinion, shouldn't have been rewarded with a romantic relationship for the reasons I mentioned. That's all.

[Conor]

Grindr advertising girl

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Petition for Jean to change her name to Grindr Girl for the gays? Hey, it beats Marvel Girl! LOL!!

[Spiderfan001]

I think Jean would only try to stop him (EDIT: by trying to convince him, not forcing him) if it would be harmful to him, though. She would never want to limit him in any way.

Look, Emma and Scott did love each other. She fell during the affair. For him it came later, when they were in a relationship already. I never denied that.

I just don't think it invalidates his relationship with Jean. Neither the affair or the relationship with Emma that came after Jean died and pushed him.

This whole discussion was really about how it started: in an abusive note that, in my opinion, shouldn't have been rewarded with a romantic relationship for the reasons I mentioned. That's all.

Jean would definitely stop him or leave if she was by his side in his "Black costume phase".

I'm saying it wasn't abusive.Not to Scott.He had a choice and he chose.Emma never forced him to stay, as you said he said he wanted to leave but it was telepathic.I would say it is like kissing someone while telling them to stop,He could have left.Even if the first time was forced(I don't think so but sure) he came back to her.
Jean was the one done wrong.

[Grinning Soul]

Jean would definitely stop him or leave if she was by his side in his "Black costume phase".

I'm saying it wasn't abusive.Not to Scott.He had a choice and he chose.Emma never forced him to stay, as you said he said he wanted to leave but it was telepathic.I would say it is like kissing someone while telling them to stop,He could have left.Even if the first time was forced(I don't think so but sure) he came back to her.
Jean was the one done wrong.

I'm not saying Scott doesn't have a share of responsibility. And, yes, his commitment was to Jean so he did wrong by her.

As for the abuse... For me, his desire doesn't matter neither does his ability to get out of the telepathic session. What matters is that he objected or asked Emma to stop repeatedly. And, for me, it only takes one time for a person to have to ask that. If a person has to ask a second time, we're already in an abusive interaction.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

[Spiderfan001]

I'm not saying Scott doesn't have a share of responsibility. And, yes, his commitment was to Jean so he did wrong by her.

As for the abuse... For me, his desire doesn't matter neither does his ability to get out of the telepathic session. What matters is that he objected or asked Emma to stop repeatedly. And, for me, it only takes one time for a person to have to ask that. If a person has to ask a second time, we're already in an abusive interaction.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Okay great

I would agree but this is a telepathic conversation.She wasn't holding home down.Agree to disagree.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It's also not accurate that Cyclops has no defense against telepathy. Characters in the MU can struggle against mind control even when they are being *actually* attacked, let alone just being talked to.

Ergo, if he wanted out, and the stories tell us he did not, he could have tried to get out. He wasn't feeling threatened; he was feeling tempted.

Now, with that all said, who do we complain to to get Emma to mind control or abuse her bore again so Jean can go do new and interesting things? Lolol