Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grunty]

From X-Men Monday:
(Pic)

Anyone knows which book this is art from?

Children of the Atom.

The only book where someone used Maggott currently. Also one where the writer tries to create a reality in which he is apparently famous among the general public as X-men.

[Grinning Soul]

I mean that was how many people were written back then.

But cheating and making out on her grave is another level of disrespect

You guys do remember that Scott was going to reject Emma and walk away, right? That kiss, at that moment, *only* happened because Jean, as the White Phoenix, from the future, pushed him.

I also find it horrible to read/see it. Of course I do. But let's be fair here: he did walk away! That kiss and the whole relationship only happened because of an intervention. Regardless of how you feel off-comics about it - trust me: I hate it too - in-story, that's what happened.

[Omega_DCD]

It's been a busy weekend but just wanted to say, just because Scott wasn't literally controlled by Emma, doesn't mean he wasn't coerced. How many times did Emma role-play as Jean during their sessions? How long did she persist in blurring the lines? And yes, regular minds can be trained to defend themselves to a degree against mental assaults, but this wasn't that. And besides, Scott's mental state was clearly that of trauma, further evidenced by the fact that Jean and Scott's psychic rapport, the same rapport that made Jean never give up hope that he was alive, and lead her to him...the same rapport that still survived the union between him and Apocalypse, was now damaged.

And remember, their rapport is based on their very essences, as shown in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix...even being psychically yanked 3,000 years into the future and into foreign bodies wasn't enough to disrupt it. So yes, Scott was clearly traumatized on a very fundamental level.

[Grinning Soul]

Children of the Atom.

The only book where someone used Maggott currently. Also one where the writer tries to create a reality in which he is apparently famous among the general public as X-men.

Don't they normally share panels from the comics who are being released on the same week? That would mean Hellions, X-Men or X-Force, right? I can't really match the art to any of those books. Or Children of the Atom...

[Grinning Soul]

It's been a busy weekend but just wanted to say, just because Scott wasn't literally controlled by Emma, doesn't mean he wasn't coerced. How many times did Emma role-play as Jean during their sessions? How long did she persist in blurring the lines? And yes, regular minds can be trained to defend themselves to a degree against mental assaults, but this wasn't that. And besides, Scott's mental state was clearly that of trauma, further evidenced by the fact that Jean and Scott's psychic rapport, the same rapport that made Jean never give up hope that he was alive, and lead her to him...the same rapport that still survived the union between him and Apocalypse, was now damaged.

And remember, their rapport is based on their very essences, as shown in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix...even being psychically yanked 3,000 years into the future and into foreign bodies wasn't enough to disrupt it. So yes, Scott was clearly traumatized on a very fundamental level

All of that and the fact Emma had agreed to be his therapist. That alone put her in a position of authority and power. So when your therapist characterise your behaviour, your relationship, your trauma, etc... you're in a much more vulnerable position to accept it than if anyone else was doing the same.

There is a reason why romantic/sexual relationships with patients are ethically forbidden by the professional boards. The fact the affair happened telepathically only makes it worse, because it gives the telepath access to influence the sensations of their patients as if they were real - like Scott says that it felt like he was really falling when she makes his parachute turn into costumes.

It is so violating in so many levels... It's astounding how so many people just don't see it. But what can we do? *shrug*



EDIT: By the way, not only those bodies weren't theirs, those bodies were genetically humans until Rachel turned them into mutants. So, Jean really couldn't have her telepathy when they just arrived. Yet, the rapport was there.

[Mercury]

Told you Jean is the dom!

You! lol.

I've just remembered how much I loved her short-lived power signature in this particular style!! So gorgeous.

I love it, too. I posted that panel upthread. The art and coloring are just phenomenal.

[Mercury]

Grinning Soul, I haven't gathered my thoughts on your last reply to me, so I won't be responding to it just yet. I did want to say, however, that I agree with you and Omega_DCD about Emma. What she did to Jean during the Dark Phoenix Saga and later to Scott was abusive. I suppose this is one of the reasons - certainly not the only one - I have a hard time categorizing Logan's behavior as abusive, too.

[Grinning Soul]

Grinning Soul, I haven't gathered my thoughts on your last reply to me, so I won't be responding to it just yet. I did want to say, however, that I agree with you and Omega_DCD about Emma. What she did to Jean during the Dark Phoenix Saga and later to Scott was abusive. I suppose this is one of the reasons - certainly not the only one - I have a hard time categorizing Logan's behavior as abusive, too.

No problem. And don't worry about it. Take your time. I really appreciate that you're thinking about it. It's not something I could see it right away either. It took me years to recognize it because those things are way too common in pop culture and even more common in real life. And it's certainly not easy to digest it all at once.

So, honestly, don't worry, all right? :)

[Mercury]

Thanks, Grinning Soul.

According to the AIPT review of X-Men #1 - it earned 8.5/10 stars - this issue is "heavy on Cyclops and Jean," which, of course, I am thrilled about. I also loved this little bit of the review:

At one point, Duggan — formerly the writer of Guardians of the Galaxy and Nova — jaunts off to space for a wild scene with a mysterious set of aliens. This issue is set in a brand new era but has the classic feel of Chris Claremont’s X-Men, where the story can move from New York to space and anywhere in between.

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/05/x-men-1-review/

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks, Grinning Soul.

According to the AIPT review of X-Men #1 - it earned 8.5/10 stars - this issue is "heavy on Cyclops and Jean," which, of course, I am thrilled about. I also loved this little bit of the review:



https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/05/x-men-1-review/

I don't know if I want to read it or not... The dilemma! :D

I'm very wary of reviews nowadays... I'm really trying not to get super hyped about the book! Oh, I want to read it!

You're mean, Mercury! :P

But seriously: thanks for sharing! :)

[Omega_DCD]

Thanks, Grinning Soul.

According to the AIPT review of X-Men #1 - it earned 8.5/10 stars - this issue is "heavy on Cyclops and Jean," which, of course, I am thrilled about. I also loved this little bit of the review:



https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/05/x-men-1-review/

That sounds promising...and also Jean and Polaris have a scene in issue #2 right? Looking forward to this ��

[Mercury]

Yeah, Duggan said Jean has some cool stuff in issue #2, including a moment with Polaris.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I read the review...

I'm hyped. Damn it! :D

[Lucyinthesky]

Hi Grinning Soul, I want to apologize for my late answer, I had a response before but CBR eat it but here is my answer now if you can´t answer right now, it´s allright, I am mostly giving my pov on the story.

I donÂ’t think itÂ’s always a matter of surprising. Some really good stories donÂ’t have any surprising elements. But I get what you mean.
IÂ’m not sure the fact that readers buy into everything they read has to do with being a new fan. I think itÂ’s more about thinking about what they are reading, in other words, using some discernment and critical thinking. For instance, just because a character is saying something, it doesnÂ’t mean theyÂ’re right, but you need to ask yourself if they could be wrong otherwise you just accept it as the truth.

When I read a story I know I am going to get characters with their own motives, thoughts and wordviews, especially if the writer makes a point of exploring this with them and wants to do more than your usual superhero story, so for me the question is not so much if the characters are telling the truth or not, they may have reasons to tell the truth at that moment and then keep something to themselves and just like the characters I believe readers have also their own take of the story, so some may take what X character says at face value while others try to get more into the internal motivations of the character, I believe this is normal for a work that´s read from different perspectives .

I’ll admit: based on her other appearances in S.W.O.R.D., I had formed a different perspective of her than the one we saw on the last issue. ItÂ’ll be interested into seeing where she goes from here.Lucy, all of this is about the practical implications. IÂ’m talking about the conceptual implications.
Like I wrote in another thread:
Dictatorship is the form of government where a single person or a small group hold the power over a society without being limited by a constitution and without being challenged by democratic elections.
I don't know how one would argue that is not the case for the Quiet Council, the Great Ring of Arakko or the Regent of Sol...
A kind and righteous dictator is still a dictator.
So, by definition, unless the inhabitants of the Solar System are allowed to vote for the regent (directly or indirectly) and this regentÂ’s power is limited by some for of constitution, the people of the Solar System is living under a dictatorship.

By this definition BlackBlot, T´Challa and Namor are all dictators too instead of being the recognized leaders of their countries, not all populations choose representative democracy as their goverment and this is true even in the real world, more so in comics where we often get civilizations with councils and Kings/Queens instead of Presidents and a congress and of coruse all of them have their own laws and way of managing their society.

On that note Gyrich was not chosen to represent Earth by the UN and neither was Alpha Fight or Carol Danvers yet they are/were considered legitimate representatives of Earth by the Galactic Council and it´s the same case with Storm and Arakko as long as she´s retcognized as Regent by Krakoa, Arrako and the Galactic Councils then her representative part has validity, that´s my point, I am not really trying to convice you, that´s the way I see it.

Yeah, right now MoiraÂ’s intentions are a question mark indeed. She was shown as evolving her way of thinking. In her first lives she wasnÂ’t all about protecting mutants. But we really donÂ’t know if she is still fighting for mutants to win the war against humans at this point.
Whoever is going to keep reading this might find out.

Yes I hope Inferno is good and that Hickman gets off the world building and does more character work to let us understand where´s he going with his story but I am more excited for to see more interactions between the X-men and the rest of the MU on SWORD, that title does exactly the kind of stories I like and Ewing is a great writer

I hated that crossover too. But IÂ’m not sure if weÂ’re supposed to blame the writer. Maybe it was exactly what Marvel wanted.
ItÂ’s the same issue I have with the whole HickmanÂ’s run really: I canÂ’t ever tell if itÂ’s bad writing or intentional.

Yes probably the editorial had something to do with it because I mostly enjoy his work in other comics.

They were always going to undo the retcon Wanda and Pietro arenÂ’t MagnetoÂ’s kids once Disney bought Fox giving Marvel the film and tv rights to the X-Men. Anyone who sus not willfully blind themselves could see this coming one million miles away. Marvel is often very obvious.
After forming Krakoa Apocalypse wondered what other realms could be conquered. Now they terraformed a planet. Saturnyne in ten of swords said the goddess will look to the stars. Now Storm is regent of a world.
Actually, since helped terraformed a planet and created its climate perhaps she has the same role as Gaea does on Earth potentially.

Agreed I believe that´s why marvel left open the question of who the father was in case they would undo the retcon in the near future and yes I also got the feeling the whole issue of planet size was about the omegas acting like the greek gods who gave origin to the world, it´s an interesting analogy because the greek gods also were very human in their behavoir and often had the same actitudes as the rest of humanity so I guess this is one of the themes in this story.

[Lucyinthesky]

[B]It is. Because without a territory, humans and mutants live together under the same laws, they elect the same representatives, theyÂ’re citizens of the same nation. This alone makes a huge difference. Now, like I said yesterday, you can have a mutant nation with a proper territory in a world where peaceful co-existence has been achieved already. Sure. But if this nation doesnÂ’t allow humans to immigrate to it (under certain laws/regulations), become citizens eventually and to have representatives in their governing bodies, then this is not a truly democratic nation even if it can peacefully co-exist with other nations around the world.

Yes this is why I believe a mutant nation who also shares space with humans is a good way in achieving actual co-existence and so far Genosha was the closest they got to this, until Krakoa lifts some of the bans on migration or at least began a more closer cooperation betwee humans and mutants something I would like to see would be cooparative scientific research on Mars, that would be awesome.

ThatÂ’s the thingÂ… I donÂ’t think Utopia was ever intended to be temporary, though. I think it was ScottÂ’s best compromise of the co-existence dream, but he had no plans of ever trying to move back into the human society. Dire circumstances led him to focus on survival, so IÂ’m not making him out to be a villain, but the distinction between his plans and JeanÂ’s are very clear: hers was never about living apart of human society and its laws.

Scott didn´t have much of long term plan, he just wanted to keep what was left of the decimated mutants alive and given Osborn bassically made them enemy #1 of the US at the time Utopia was a good answer as any and later it became a refuge for mutants before AvX. It was not really a nation and it wasn´t meant to be one.

LetÂ’s speculate here a little. She comes back from Age of X-Man and she kisses Scott passionately. I suppose they talk and they get over whatever troubles they had and they decide to go back to the plans they had made before The Twelve and the possession by Apocalypse. At this point, Charles or Erik or both ask them to come live in their new nation where things will be different and theyÂ’ll be able to finally have the family theyÂ’ve always dreamed of.
Now, thatÂ’s not a stretch, right? Family seems to be important for them. Maybe thatÂ’s why they decided to give it a try.
But, I donÂ’t think Jean would be entirely sold on the idea exactly because of what happened in X-Men: Red. So she would be very alert and aware of the problems in this new society and *not* want to be part of it at whatever the price.
ThatÂ’s the part that bothers me. Once she was there, itÂ’s like she became a zombie or a robot that has to follow certain thought-patterns/instructions.
IÂ’m hoping that forming the X-Men is the beginning of a rupture. But IÂ’ll have to keep reading for a while, for as long as I can stomach.

It´s hard to say for sure because I believe Hickman has put some clues about not everthing being quite well with Krakoa even if the idea itself is a good one, so I will wait and see on this, so far with Onslaught presence it seems it´s paying off waiting a little and I am sure Inferno will reveal more in the near future.

Well, Lucy, what can we say? ItÂ’s a mess, right?
If a magic curse made it so that mutants couldnÂ’t be born from humans what is to say they could be born from other mutants?
And if they couldnÂ’t be born, they would be extinct one way or another. Even if all of them died of old age.
Some stories have idiotic premises whatever way you look. And as readers we can only shrug and keep reading or walk away. But we canÂ’t make it less idiotic.

Yes that was the premise of the endangered species story, they all were going to die off and mutants would become extinct and it was until Hope´s birth and later direct intervention by Phoenix that mutants could be born again and have mutant children. I don´t think it was an idiotic premise, this was exactly the state of things HoM left mutants so writers at the time were just developing stories around it and I believe they did good in general, there are some really interesting stories from this era and Mike Carey, one of the writers who developed the Messiah trilogy, was one of the best of that time, he really had Claremonts insight with the characters and developed their world despite the limitations of the time given decimation.

The execution should be the discussion. But itÂ’s not. And *that* is the problem.
They threw away the dream because the execution was flawed or proved not to be effective.
At the same time, both the dream and the execution of a mutant nation are flawed, but they keep insisting on trying it because somehow it seems more achievable.
But until someone stops to think that a mutant nation can only exists *after* co-existence has been achieved, pursuing this goal is even more non-sensical.

If co-existence could not be achieved in the US that was the X-men main home, then it´s doubtful it could be achieved in the rest of the world, Krakoa is more an answer to the state of things post decimation and that was also something that needed to be addressed and I hope Duggan is going to retake the X-men as team that fights for all, because both things are actually neccesary to begin to approach coexistence.

Yeah. I mentioned Fallen Angels here before. I didnÂ’t like the series much, but the premise was interesting.
I hope we get to see some of it in the new X-Men book, but the premise for the group is to be the “heroes of Krakoa” so… it’s doesn’t seem to be exactly the same thing, does it?
At the same time, like I also said here, I donÂ’t really understand the premise of this new X-Men group anyway. So, I guess IÂ’ll have to read to get a better grip. And itÂ’s possible itÂ’s really just nonsensical.

I loved Fallen Angels premise so I hope some other writer tackles it, the writer did a work that seemed more appropiate for a movie or a tv series and that´s why I guess he didn´t get to develop it.

I belive Duggan X-men are going to be the traditional X-men, "No longer hated but that anyway work to protect everybody and I like that premise, it brings the franchise back to what traditional readers are used to and it´s nice to see.

Scott lives with Jean but they donÂ’t talk about stuff. Small stuff like the Crucible. :P
And during the “fireworks” he was looking at it with the eyes of someone who drank too much Krakoan tea. Besides, he doesn’t take care of security, if he did, he would have organised the security for the Gala. And I like to believe that - even on Krakoan tea - less people would have died, because Scott is more competent than those clowns.

I REALLY don´t think Scott would not talk with Jean about the Crucible but I also think that particular issue is something Onslaught made easier for them to understand because otherwise I really can´t see them supporting it, so hopefully it will be addressed in Way of X but the "fireworks" themselves was quite the opposite from the Crucible, they were a way to avoid War with Arakko and other countries as well to address some elemental needs Krakoa had at the moment so as far as that goes, I could see Kurt, Jean and Scott supporting it, especially with Storm as Regent now, if they had put someone else I could see them having more doubts.

Do we know that for sure? They have access to Krakoa, right? And from there they can go anywhere.

They have to aske permission from Storm first before going to Krakoa and Yes that was explicit on Planet Size.

We know there was a murder. But that doesnÂ’t mean it is the crime for which heÂ’ll be put on trial.

I would like that to be the case, in fact given todays interview with JDW I believe it´s possible that if they find out he didn´t do it that he will be put on trial for trying to use his authority to get Wanda ressurrection which obviously will put him in an opposite possition to at least half of the QC and the country but I guess we will have to wait and see.

A non-zombie Jean doesnÂ’t need to like someone to defend them if she thinks they are suffering some injustice. But I wasnÂ’t thinking about her when I wondered if someone would defend him.
I was thinking about her when it came to the implications/consequence of the trial. But againÂ… IÂ’m not sure how much I want her to be involved in any of the big events of this era as they all seem to be problematic to say the least.

I just don´t see her doubting that he killed someone but I could see her doubting he killed his own daughter but I guess we will have to wait and see, so far I think she will have much to do with the X-men to really get involved on Magneto´s trial but Lorna definitely is going to be involved given JDW interview.