Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[poki]

Yes this is why I believe a mutant nation who also shares space with humans is a good way in achieving actual co-existence and so far Genosha was the closest they got to this, until Krakoa lifts some of the bans on migration or at least began a more closer cooperation betwee humans and mutants something I would like to see would be cooparative scientific research on Mars, that would be awesome.



Scott didn´t have much of long term plan, he just wanted to keep what was left of the decimated mutants alive and given Osborn bassically made them enemy #1 of the US at the time Utopia was a good answer as any and later it became a refuge for mutants before AvX. It was not really a nation and it wasn´t meant to be one.



It´s hard to say for sure because I believe Hickman has put some clues about not everthing being quite well with Krakoa even if the idea itself is a good one, so I will wait and see on this, so far with Onslaught presence it seems it´s paying off waiting a little and I am sure Inferno will reveal more in the near future.



Yes that was the premise of the endangered species story, they all were going to die off and mutants would become extinct and it was until Hope´s birth and later direct intervention by Phoenix that mutants could be born again and have mutant children. I don´t think it was an idiotic premise, this was exactly the state of things HoM left mutants so writers at the time were just developing stories around it and I believe they did good in general, there are some really interesting stories from this era and Mike Carey, one of the writers who developed the Messiah trilogy, was one of the best of that time, he really had Claremonts insight with the characters and developed their world despite the limitations of the time given decimation.



If co-existence could not be achieved in the US that was the X-men main home, then it´s doubtful it could be achieved in the rest of the world, Krakoa is more an answer to the state of things post decimation and that was also something that needed to be addressed and I hope Duggan is going to retake the X-men as team that fights for all, because both things are actually neccesary to begin to approach coexistence.





I loved Fallen Angels premise so I hope some other writer tackles it, the writer did a work that seemed more appropiate for a movie or a tv series and that´s why I guess he didn´t get to develop it.

I belive Duggan X-men are going to be the traditional X-men, "No longer hated but that anyway work to protect everybody and I like that premise, it brings the franchise back to what traditional readers are used to and it´s nice to see.



I REALLY don´t think Scott would not talk with Jean about the Crucible but I also think that particular issue is something Onslaught made easier for them to understand because otherwise I really can´t see them supporting it, so hopefully it will be addressed in Way of X but the "fireworks" themselves was quite the opposite from the Crucible, they were a way to avoid War with Arakko and other countries as well to address some elemental needs Krakoa had at the moment so as far as that goes, I could see Kurt, Jean and Scott supporting it, especially with Storm as Regent now, if they had put someone else I could see them having more doubts.




They have to aske permission from Storm first before going to Krakoa and Yes that was explicit on Planet Size.




I would like that to be the case, in fact given todays interview with JDW I believe it´s possible that if they find out he didn´t do it that he will be put on trial for trying to use his authority to get Wanda ressurrection which obviously will put him in an opposite possition to at least half of the QC and the country but I guess we will have to wait and see.



I just don´t see her doubting that he killed someone but I could see her doubting he killed his own daughter but I guess we will have to wait and see, so far I think she will have much to do with the X-men to really get involved on Magneto´s trial but Lorna definitely is going to be involved given JDW interview.

He killed his own son.

[Lucyinthesky]

He killed his own son.

In HoM most people that awoke from that reality had murderous reactions, like Spider-Man who wanted to kill off Wanda so my guess is that it had an effect on him along with the fact Pietro used him and Wanda to create that world and it didn´t repeat itself no matter when Pietro used the terrigen gas to give mutants on Genosha back their powers which resulted in some of them dying,mutants Magneto had been taking care of or during their search for Wanda or during Axis crossover where they worked together. It´s not a justification but it´s certainly a different circunstance than him deciding to kill off Wanda out of the blue after he invited her to the Gala.

Mind you I don´t really know how Jean would react to all this tbh because she was dead at the time HoM happened and right now she and Magneto just talk on matters of work so I don´t really know how she would react in this context. Mostly she probably could give him a chance or she would think he definitely did it. I don´t really know.

[poki]

NAH ... Magneto’s assholish-ness is really off the charts
tumblr_inline_p7icul1ujS1rr4ug7_500.jpg
Magneto Abuse Kid Piedro....Dadneto is just tumblr headcanon

[Lucyinthesky]

Lol yes he´s it but this doesn´t mean Pietro is some Angel who should not take responsibility for his own actions, because it´s always someone else fault except his own and I say this as someone who actually likes Pietro a lot and dislikes how marvel has made him an antagonist of Wanda´s in her solo. I totally agree with you he needs his own stories.

[loke13]

In HoM most people that awoke from that reality had murderous reactions, like Spider-Man who wanted to kill off Wanda so my guess is that it had an effect on him along with the fact Pietro used him and Wanda to create that world and it didn´t repeat itself no matter when Pietro used the terrigen gas to give mutants on Genosha back their powers which resulted in some of them dying,mutants Magneto had been taking care of or during their search for Wanda or during Axis crossover where they worked together. It´s not a justification but it´s certainly a different circunstance than him deciding to kill off Wanda out of the blue after he invited her to the Gala.

Mind you I don´t really know how Jean would react to all this tbh because she was dead at the time HoM happened and right now she and Magneto just talk on matters of work so I don´t really know how she would react in this context. Mostly she probably could give him a chance or she would think he definitely did it. I don´t really know.

Doesn't Jean still have all her memories from her Teen Jean phase. She did try to beat Wanda's ass after she found out what she did.

[Lucyinthesky]

Doesn't Jean still have all her memories from her Teen Jean phase. She did try to beat Wanda's ass after she found out what she did.

Jean has those memories but I doubt Jean thinks the exact same way now, it´s more like she has those memories but with her adult perspective and that results in a different person than young Jean. Like I don´t think adult Jean likes Wanda personally but this doesn´t mean she would be ok with anyone who decides to kill her for decimation.

[loke13]

Jean has those memories but I doubt Jean thinks the exact same way now, it´s more like she has those memories but with her adult perspective and that results in a different person than young Jean. Like I don´t think adult Jean likes Wanda personally but this doesn´t mean she would be ok with anyone who decides to kill her for decimation.

Oh absolutely. Jean wouldnt just sit by and let Wanda get murdered regardless how she personally feels about her.

[Lucyinthesky]

Oh absolutely. Jean wouldnt just sit by and let Wanda get murdered regardless how she personally feels about her.

Exactly

[Grinning Soul]

Hi Grinning Soul, I want to apologize for my late answer, I had a response before but CBR eat but here is my answer now :D if you can´t answer right now, it´s allright, I am mostly giving my pov on the story.

I’m always happy when you’re around, but I get people have other stuff they want/need to do too. Chatting in these forums should be a hobby, never an obligation. :)

I just feel sorry for you because you probably have to search in lots of pages to find the last message.

When I read a story I know I am going to get characters with their own motives, thoughts and wordviews, especially if the writer makes a point of exploring this with them and wants to do more than your usual superhero story, so for me the question is not so much if the characters are telling the truth or not, they may have reasons to tell the truth at that moment and then keep something to themselves and just like the characters I believe readers have also their own take of the story, so some may take what X character says at face value while others try to get more into the internal motivations of the character, I believe this is normal for a work that´s read from different perspectives.

It varies from person to person. And some stories allow for more interpretation than others.

I love the ones in which the consumer decides the level of engagement. Meaning: if you want to stop at the entertainment only level, that’s fine. But if you want to dig deeper into more philosophical stuff, you can.

That’s why I love The Jungle Book (2016). You can watch the movie and just have fun with Mowgli’s journey or you can embark in your questions about belonging, being different, finding your own way, the animal life and our role in nature.

By this definition BlackBlot, T´Challa and Namor are all dictators too instead of being the recognized leaders of their countries, not all populations choose representative democracy as their goverment and this is true even in the real world, more so in comics where we often get civilizations with councils and Kings/Queens instead of Presidents and a congress and of coruse all of them have their own laws and way of managing their society.

I understand that, but not to get to he minutia of other fictional governments, that was exactly my point: no nation of Earth chose to be part of Solar System Government, did they?

On that note Gyrich was not chosen to represent Earth by the UN and neither was Alpha Fight or Carol Danvers yet they are/were considered legitimate representatives of Earth by the Galactic Council and it´s the same case with Storm and Arakko as long as she´s retcognized as Regent by Krakoa, Arrako and the Galactic Councils then her representative part has validity, that´s my point, I am not really trying to convice you, that´s the way I see it.

Again, not to get into minutia, are you saying that two wrongs make a right?

Yes I hope Inferno is good and that Hickman gets off the world building and does more character work to let us understand where´s he going with his story but I am more excited for to see more interactions between the X-men and the rest of the MU on SWORD, that title does exactly the kind of stories I like and Ewing is a great writer :)

I don’t expect much character work from Inferno. But let’s see.

Yes this is why I believe a mutant nation who also shares space with humans is a good way in achieving actual co-existence and so far Genosha was the closest they got to this, until Krakoa lifts some of the bans on migration or at least began a more closer cooperation betwee humans and mutants something I would like to see would be cooparative scientific research on Mars, that would be awesome.

I don’t think we’ll see that anytime soon. Not on Krakoa.

Scott didn´t have much of long term plan, he just wanted to keep what was left of the decimated mutants alive and given Osborn bassically made them enemy #1 of the US at the time Utopia was a good answer as any and later it became a refuge for mutants before AvX. It was not really a nation and it wasn´t meant to be one.

I understand he didn’t have time and it didn’t start like that, but that became the goal.

It´s hard to say for sure because I believe Hickman has put some clues about not everthing being quite well with Krakoa even if the idea itself is a good one, so I will wait and see on this, so far with Onslaught presence it seems it´s paying off waiting a little and I am sure Inferno will reveal more in the near future.

I think Onslaught won’t be enough to explain everything. There must be something fishy with the resurrection protocols otherwise I’ll be really angry at all those red herrings. Even the last issue of X-Factor talked about removing trauma and the effect it could have.

And the resurrection protocols are just some of the weird stuff about that place.

Yes that was the premise of the endangered species story, they all were going to die off and mutants would become extinct and it was until Hope´s birth and later direct intervention by Phoenix that mutants could be born again and have mutant children. I don´t think it was an idiotic premise, this was exactly the state of things HoM left mutants so writers at the time were just developing stories around it and I believe they did good in general, there are some really interesting stories from this era and Mike Carey, one of the writers who developed the Messiah trilogy, was one of the best of that time, he really had Claremonts insight with the characters and developed their world despite the limitations of the time given decimation.

But that is why the premise is idiotic. Because they didn’t know if no mutant would ever be born again. They didn’t know there would be a baby Hope and the intervention of the Phoenix.

Some writers did the best they could with the premise. But, in my opinion, the premise - not the stories - is still idiotic.

If co-existence could not be achieved in the US that was the X-men main home, then it´s doubtful it could be achieved in the rest of the world,

The original X-Factor was actually achieving something like that. There was even a parade for them. But then they went to space and soon after they re-joined the X-Men in the mansion.

Krakoa is more an answer to the state of things post decimation and that was also something that needed to be addressed and I hope Duggan is going to retake the X-men as team that fights for all, because both things are actually neccesary to begin to approach coexistence.

The good news is that their headquarters will be in New York. That gives me some hope. I’d still prefer if it wasn’t a Krakoa habitat, but baby steps, right?

I loved Fallen Angels premise so I hope some other writer tackles it, the writer did a work that seemed more appropiate for a movie or a tv series and that´s why I guess he didn´t get to develop it.

The execution was weak, but the idea was good indeed. I still think it’s an interesting case study pre-new-X-Men book.

I belive Duggan X-men are going to be the traditional X-men, "No longer hated but that anyway work to protect everybody and I like that premise, it brings the franchise back to what traditional readers are used to and it´s nice to see.

And a breath of fresh air!

I REALLY don´t think Scott would not talk with Jean about the Crucible

Until the first actual Crucible, he didn’t. Unless he was lying to Kurt. But I doubt that.

but I also think that particular issue is something Onslaught made easier for them to understand because otherwise I really can´t see them supporting it, so hopefully it will be addressed in Way of X but the "fireworks" themselves was quite the opposite from the Crucible, they were a way to avoid War with Arakko and other countries as well to address some elemental needs Krakoa had at the moment so as far as that goes, I could see Kurt, Jean and Scott supporting it, especially with Storm as Regent now, if they had put someone else I could see them having more doubts.

Ugh… I’m not sure I even want to know the answer for it. I’m willing to remain in the dark in this particular issue. And *that* should tell you a lot, because I hate being in the dark.

They have to aske permission from Storm first before going to Krakoa and Yes that was explicit on Planet Size.

Really? I guess I have to read it again, then. I don’t remember that at all. But I don’t really trust my memory, so I won’t argue against it.

I would like that to be the case, in fact given todays interview with JDW I believe it´s possible that if they find out he didn´t do it that he will be put on trial for trying to use his authority to get Wanda ressurrection which obviously will put him in an opposite possition to at least half of the QC and the country but I guess we will have to wait and see.

Yeah. I really have no feeling to where this story is going. Not even to speculate.

I just don´t see her doubting that he killed someone but I could see her doubting he killed his own daughter but I guess we will have to wait and see, so far I think she will have much to do with the X-men to really get involved on Magneto´s trial but Lorna definitely is going to be involved given JDW interview.

That’s why I wasn’t thinking of Jean indeed.

[Lucyinthesky]

IÂ’m always happy when youÂ’re around, but I get people have other stuff they want/need to do too. Chatting in these forums should be a hobby, never an obligation. I just feel sorry for you because you probably have to search in lots of pages to find the last message.

It was fine, I liked to read your other debates, given I am not exactly an expert on Jean relationship with Scott and Logan I liked to read them.

It varies from person to person. And some stories allow for more interpretation than others.I love the ones in which the consumer decides the level of engagement. Meaning: if you want to stop at the entertainment only level, thatÂ’s fine. But if you want to dig deeper into more philosophical stuff, you can.
ThatÂ’s why I love The Jungle Book (2016). You can watch the movie and just have fun with MowgliÂ’s journey or you can embark in your questions about belonging, being different, finding your own way, the animal life and our role in nature.

Yes I personally like to get into the philosophical side and I loved The jungle book as a child, I also like poetry but when it comes to comics I really enjoy getting into the characters head to understand them and see their pov become part of the story, their motivations are the tool that helps to advance the narrative and it´s also why I am a critic of more modern writers stance on continuity being a obstacle, I believe continuity helps to enrich the characters and is a vehicule to tell a more complext story told by different authors.

I understand that, but not to get to he minutia of other fictional governments, that was exactly my point: no nation of Earth chose to be part of Solar System Government, did they?Again, not to get into minutia, are you saying that two wrongs make a right?

Two wrongs don´t make a right but I wonder why it´s now fans are reacting badly when this has been the state of things on marvel since SWORD was revealed to exist with Abigail at it´s head and Nick Fury as her partner, this is just bussines as usual for her and Storm being Regent of Mars is in no way a dictatorship given earth has no bussines on Mars and it became an extension of Krakoa so Ororo is a representative of the same goverment she already is part of. No one calls T´Challa a dictator for being King over the other galactic territories of Wakanda on Space why should Storm be an exception?

I donÂ’t expect much character work from Inferno. But letÂ’s see.

Me neither, right now I am more excited for Sword than for anything else but it´s nice to have different titles for each preference.

I donÂ’t think weÂ’ll see that anytime soon. Not on Krakoa.

Who knows, never say never.

I understand he didnÂ’t have time and it didnÂ’t start like that, but that became the goal.

No really, he didn´t have time to even built an actual goverment, the X-men managed things with the different teams in place, he didn´t have laws in place for a society, they lived off from the help the San Francisco Mayor managed to get them and their alliance with Atlantis, they were a military bunker designed to support what was left of mutants until they could not hold it anymore.

I think Onslaught wonÂ’t be enough to explain everything. There must be something fishy with the resurrection protocols otherwise IÂ’ll be really angry at all those red herrings. Even the last issue of X-Factor talked about removing trauma and the effect it could have.
And the resurrection protocols are just some of the weird stuff about that place.

X-factor indeed was supposed to be the title that would get deeply into the ressurrection process but it left this premise and it´s original story of them being the an investigation group in favor of exploring the characters of the team, so I wonder if Leah may tackle some of the ressurrection process on Trial of Magneto. Still even if she doesn´t, at least Way of X will tackle a little that aspect, along with the general self- destructive tendencies most of Krakoa has.

But that is why the premise is idiotic. Because they didnÂ’t know if no mutant would ever be born again. They didnÂ’t know there would be a baby Hope and the intervention of the Phoenix.Some writers did the best they could with the premise. But, in my opinion, the premise - not the stories - is still idiotic.

They released a miniseries called Endangered Species around that time in which Hank Mccoy asked the help of every other scientist: Pym,Reed, T´Challa, Dr Doom, High Evolutionary, etc and Dr Strange to solve the issue but he only found out that even the dead at Genosha were decimated at DNA level. So yes, they were quite sure to be the last generation of mutants in Earth because the situation was magical in nature, not scientific so it was needed a counter-force similar to that of the chaos magic Wanda uses to counter act it and this is why Phoenix was neccesary.

The original X-Factor was actually achieving something like that. There was even a parade for them. But then they went to space and soon after they re-joined the X-Men in the mansion.

Yes, maybe if more teams did this they could do something at the PR level but imo a parade for some mutants seen in a positive light is not equivalent to this becoming the status quo for co-existence, that´s two different concepts. Imo it´s also why I liked to see Charles talk with the politicians and heros and supporting mutant groups from back in the 80´s and 90´s because that gave a sense of a more profound change happening at the level of the day to day relations and for this reason I also understand part of the actual status quo of Krakoa, not all but some because you can´t have what we had before decimation and ignore years in which things really were bad for mutants, in many ways Krakoa existence is a consequence of those years.

The good news is that their headquarters will be in New York. That gives me some hope. IÂ’d still prefer if it wasnÂ’t a Krakoa habitat, but baby steps, right?

Yes baby steps, I like that this will allow them to retake their relationship with the other super teams and that it seems perspective of people in NY is more positive.

The execution was weak, but the idea was good indeed. I still think itÂ’s an interesting case study pre-new-X-Men book.

Agreed.

And a breath of fresh air!

Indeed

Until the first actual Crucible, he didnÂ’t. Unless he was lying to Kurt. But I doubt that.

He didn´t need to, imo, Scott was talking with Kurt as friends who had problem with it, I found that moment very in character with their own self and Jean already knew of it given her presence on the QC my problem there is not so much of comunication but more of them being too passive in the face of something they could change given their own influence in the goverment, I know part of being a super-hero is being a rebel agaisnt the system but when you become a member of the system it becomes neccesary to then show how different you would run things and how you can change the system for the better and them, instead of using their new found authority, are just complaining as if they could not do something about it when they very well can. But I don´t blame the characters for this, imo, this looks more like a writer pov, I could be wrong of course but this is how it seems to be.

UghÂ… IÂ’m not sure I even want to know the answer for it. IÂ’m willing to remain in the dark in this particular issue. And *that* should tell you a lot, because I hate being in the dark.

I am way too curious for my own good, so I want to know, even if this may make me angry I can´t help but be curious if there´s something more going on that´s in front of us and will explode at a later story, I mean, that´s how Hickman wrote his FF and Avengers so I don´t think X-men is an exception.

Really? I guess I have to read it again, then. I donÂ’t remember that at all. But I donÂ’t really trust my memory, so I wonÂ’t argue against it.

It was on the pages where it was explained Mars would become a center for dyplomacy to "stop wars before they began" with the other galactic civilizations.

Yeah. I really have no feeling to where this story is going. Not even to speculate.

Yes so far it´s been pretty clear what´s going on but they could change some things. JDW said TOM would be "bananas" I just hope it´s the type of craziness with good character work I like but I am not exactly excited with the premise.

ThatÂ’s why I wasnÂ’t thinking of Jean indeed.

Yes indeed.

[Harpsikord]

Jean has those memories but I doubt Jean thinks the exact same way now, it´s more like she has those memories but with her adult perspective and that results in a different person than young Jean. Like I don´t think adult Jean likes Wanda personally but this doesn´t mean she would be ok with anyone who decides to kill her for decimation.

Jean thinks Wanda is a narcissist. She says as much in the Jean solo when she's a ghost - definitely not a fan. But I very much doubt she would want Wanda dead or feel anything but upset about it.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yes I remember that issue, I don´t think Jean knows Wanda really but I miss those little character moments she used to have, I really liked Teen Jean and adult Jean having to work together to stop Phoenix.

[Harpsikord]

Yes I remember that issue, I don´t think Jean knows Wanda really but I miss those little character moments she used to have, I really liked Teen Jean and adult Jean having to work together to stop Phoenix.

They certainly aren't particularly close but they definitely know each other - they started at the same time on opposing teams after all. I'd be excited to see Jean interact with her when she's brought back to life.

[Lucyinthesky]

They certainly aren't particularly close but they definitely know each other - they started at the same time on opposing teams after all. I'd be excited to see Jean interact with her when she's brought back to life.

Yes I believe they have a great potential as friends, I liked the scenes we got with them on X-men First Class comics

[Mercury]

A question to fans: Why is Jean Grey so alluring? Feel free to list objective and personal reasons. (I'll write my reasons a bit later. Curious to read all of your responses.)