Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

And I hate the fact that she always has to say “i dont know how long I can do this or I wont be able to do this for much longer” blah blah. I noticed it’s pretty prevalent ever since she donned this Marvel Girl costume. She could have easily said “I’ll do this for as long as I can.” It says the basically the same thing but shows determination and resolve. That’s the Jean I know.

We didnt have any lines with Polaris saying I can only hold this metal for x amount of time or Cyclops saying I can only blast for a little bit. It’s ONLY with Jean. It makes her come off as inadequate and unassured. That’s not Jean. It honestly gives me hickman house of x 4 vibes, gross.

I completely agree but unfortunately this extends to many other writers as well...even in X-Men Red during the attack on Atlantis, Jean telekinetically holds a falling tower, but has to mention she can't do this for long, blah blah blah, bore bore bore. And it's glaring next to other characters and how they use their powers.

Just recently in Planet Size X-Men, not only does he have to have Jean say that soon the station will be too big to move, even after Jean hurls it into orbit, without any visible or audible strain, he still has Magneto say "Breathe easy Jean...I have it". And like you say, a simple change of phrasing would make those moments come across so much better. The constant under-cutting of her feats by either 1st or 3rd person commentary is exhausting.

I have to agree with both of you here. I am not sure if this is intended maliciously or just due to being misinformed about her character, but it is certainly irritating. And as both of you have pointed out, even if the objective was to clarify that her power has limitations, which is really unnecessary and makes no sense, much better dialogue could be used.

And let me add while the writing with her and Cyclops is fine, it also feels unearned. So much happened with Emma/the affair and now the weirdness with Wolverine that we dont get to see how to they got from point a to point b. It leaves me cold.

I have a love-hate relationship with her marriage to Scott. On the one hand, it makes me nostalgic, and I love its longevity; on the other hand, I would rather see her partner with someone else or just be single and grow in new ways.

[Daedra]

Agree. While Duggan’s Jean hasn’t been bad, what has been so great? She hasn’t had any character defining moments. Are we so desperate that we’re celebrating basic use of her powers? Gee she’s actually using her tk and telepathy that any other psi character could have done. Replace her with another psionic and the result would have been the same. There isn’t any “ OH that’s Jean” moments like when she defended the Mansion during Morrison’s run from the U-Men.”

And I hate the fact that she always has to say “i dont know how long I can do this or I wont be able to do this for much longer” blah blah. I noticed it’s pretty prevalent ever since she donned this Marvel Girl costume. She could have easily said “I’ll do this for as long as I can.” It says the basically the same thing but shows determination and resolve. That’s the Jean I know.

We didnt have any lines with Polaris saying I can only hold this metal for x amount of time or Cyclops saying I can only blast for a little bit. It’s ONLY with Jean. It makes her come off as inadequate and unassured. That’s not Jean. It honestly gives me hickman house of x 4 vibes, gross.

I did not want to piss on on other people’s parades but since you brought it up, I very much agree with you, it’s like they have to constantly remind us she’s strong but not really THAT tough…..and I know this is mostly a pet peeve of mine but I find telepathic chores so very boring, Claremont’s tp was very cool and creative especially during the REVOLUTION ERA but recent writers and editors seems to think of it as nothing more than a fancy skype connection and firewall, it could not be any more passive.

And let me add while the writing with her and Cyclops is fine, it also feels unearned. So much happened with Emma/the affair and now the weirdness with Wolverine that we dont get to see how to they got from point a to point b. It leaves me cold.

…..and me as well, not feeling the growth, not feeling the overcoming of obstacles….. tomorrow’s Scott could propose to Emma and I would not be any bit surprised.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I didn't even notice the "Jean isn't that powerful" slights in the dialogue before y'all said something. Well, I did notice the 'rest easy' line, but that entire scene I mostly didn't give much thought to because it's so goofy.

Qualifiers on her capabilities could be influence from the cartoon. There seems to be an element of intentional super basicness when it comes to the characterization, even if the geopolitics are a bit more creative. Classic, uncomplicated characterization is intentional. And the only thing more classic, basic, and uninspired than a 90s-esque Jean not being able to handle something is...

Jott. It's early days, a couple of issues into Gerry's tenure unless you count Cable, so I guess it could be said that it's too early for growth or explaining them getting from Point A to B.

To be fair, I would say that kind of content is counterintuitive to the value of the Jean/Scott ship, anyway. The reason to put them together again is that it is basic X-Men. I don't think depth or storytelling is the point. It's just supposed to be nostalgic. Anyway, addressing anything that happened in the Morrison run would require acknowledging Morrison's take on Jean, which they are not keen on doing.

For the X-office's intents and purposes, Jean Grey put on an old dress on the moon and died there and wasn't seen again until House of X.

[Lucyinthesky]

I did not want to piss on on other people’s parades but since you brought it up, I very much agree with you, it’s like they have to constantly remind us she’s strong but not really THAT tough…..and I know this is mostly a pet peeve of mine but I find telepathic chores so very boring, Claremont’s tp was very cool and creative especially during the REVOLUTION ERA but recent writers and editors seems to think of it as nothing more than a fancy skype connection and firewall, it could not be any more passive.



…..and me as well, not feeling the growth, not feeling the overcoming of obstacles….. tomorrow’s Scott could propose to Emma and I would not be any bit surprised.

I agree so far the only other character I saw who has to mention they can´t hold it together long during a power feat was Susan Storm, it often happens to her too and the only thing they have in common is that they were created during the silver age and have a long lasting relationship with the leader of their respective team. Lorna often has gotten bad treatment but her powers usually are very stable. I didn´t saw this happening to young Jean, who was by all intends and purposes a different character for most writers.

This usually doesn´t bother me because Jean still has a good place on the team and everybody loves or respects her so I only need her feats to be an usual thing that happens because she has that powers and doesn´t need to be hold by Scott after them like in the case of KiB.

On Scott and Jean relationship I like to see them together but it also looks forced to me during this era because they have not talked about everything that happened during all those years in which Scott loved Emma or explain how´s Scott so ok with Jean kissing Logan before going to bed with him. Call me old school but those type of things make me look at them now and doubt they are so ok with each other as they seem to be.

[MechaJeanix]

I don't think lines like "you can rest easy, Jean.. I have it" or "I can't hold this forever" is that bad. I don't even see it as a slight. Both of the feats involved with those lines were huge - Jean lifting a growing space station and throwing it and the other lifting a falling building/tower under water.

Personally I love that Jean is very powerful but I don't want her to be all powerful where she can do anything and everything without any effort or struggle. I feel the same for all of the characters. I do think they will show Jean putting more effort into her tk feats due to the redefinition of her not being an omega tk - which is annoying but again her dominant power is going to be telepathy (the omega mutant data page described their omega power as their dominant power).

Another trend I'm seeing on x-twitter is fans going off even when Jean does big things in the comics. I think it because they fall for the bait and are primed to see Jean as flopping rather than the opposite because other stans of other characters are constantly popping off on anything Jean does including posting negatively about King in Black 4 and even Planet Sized - both great showings from Jean but if I hadn't read those issues myself I would have thought Jean flopped by the posts I had read on twitter the day before both came out. I wish some Jean fans wouldn't fall for the bait or tag the creators in diatribes especially when the writers do well with Jean. I think Duggan has done well so far, so there is no reason to go after him on twitter. Maybe I'm too effected by it but I hate seeing x-men fans on this forum or other forums I belong to generalizing how Jean fans are so awful when it is just a few people behaving badly. But after 20 years you'd think I'd be more immune to this.

As for Percy, I think he did get Jean in a lot of ways. His Jean was a departure of the X-men Red version certainly but she still had a lot of great qualities. She was strong, capable, confident and dealt with the inner struggle with her values and what X-force has to do to keep Krakoa safe. That was her story - realizing X-force wasn't about being heroic but doing the dirty work and she wanted to do something positive for the world.

My fear is that Jean will become too much of the girlfriend to Wolverine and wife to Cyclops character. Good thing so far she has had plenty of moments independent of them - like when she was on the council, a few of her adventures in X-force, her psychic rescue of Storm (yes both of her men was there but she spent most of the issue without them), being on the omega mutant team and terraforming Mars. I love the preview with her spending time with Synch. I can take some warm moments with Cyclops and/or Wolverine but I want so much more for the character than the romance/family stuff.

[Mercury]

For the X-office's intents and purposes, Jean Grey put on an old dress on the moon and died there and wasn't seen again until House of X.

Touching upon what I wrote on the previous page regarding Jean's core characteristics and the handling of her character by current writers, this tendency to resort to diminishing her power(s) and autonomy as a woman is something that has been happening since the beginning of her comic book "career." While researching and reviewing her development for the #JeanGreyFeats thread I am currently working on [1], starting with her first appearance in 1963, I noticed the following two things about the initial 66-issue run of the X-Men: 1) Jean was immediately introduced as formidable, assertive, and a powerful telekinetic, with her subsequent evolution as both a woman and mutant being primarily progressive, and 2) although her skills and power set increased incrementally, writers occasionally resorted to characterizing her as a weak and helpless woman in distress, often in service of a flimsy plot and, perhaps, latent sexism. Additionally, her pivotal roles as the most trusted team member and occasional team leader were solidified during this period.

Of the handful of writers preceding Chris Claremont, Roy Thomas, who, incidentally, created the team Lady Liberators, which satirized "extreme feminism," seems to have had the most negative impact on her early characterization. Though, to be fair, Thomas can also be credited with giving her moments to shine, most notably when she asserts herself and prevents the entire team from intruding on Professor X's privacy. Nevertheless, during Thomas' initial two-year run, Jean was sent off to college and took a back seat for several issues, often dropping in to be of minimal help. Upon his return to the book at the cusp of its hiatus, Thomas' ten-issue run saw a markedly submissive Jean, who, in some instances, quietly tolerated beratement and belittlement by Scott, who yelled at her and even referred to her as "girl" on a few occasions - something he had never done before. Her power set and levels were also undermined, most notably in a five-page spread written, ironically enough, by a woman, Linda Fite. In this spread, Jean is shown using her powers to complete housework and admitting, "It's easier for me to control things from a closer range," neither of which she had said or evidenced before.

After Claremont took over writing duties and brought Jean back into the fold (she had chosen, along with the other original team members save for Scott, to leave the team), she became more prominent in the book again. Claremont has always been open about his love for Jean and has revealed that the basis for his creation of Phoenix was to display and expand Jean's limitless power and potential. Admittedly, Claremont's work on Jean solidified her as a powerhouse and the most empathic member of the team. However, he also had a hand in unwittingly undermining her innate power and strength, as attributed to her during the initial 66-issue run. In issue #105, he has Scott think to himself, "Jean used to be the weakest X-Man" - a description that had never been applied to her up until that point and which would haunt her for years; some might stay it still haunts her.

Once she became Phoenix, artist John Byrne, a purported fan of Jean's, took issue and umbrage with her new power levels, made an issue of it to both Claremont and editorial, and has since admitted that he was "never a fan" of Jean as Phoenix. In fact, Jean's eventual fate as the Dark Phoenix can be in great measure credited to Byrne, who perceived Jean as Phoenix as an obstacle that undermined the team because of how often she overshadowed the other members.

Since her death and subsequent resurrection, writers have fumbled with how to characterize her, often resorting to one-dimensional tropes in place of more nuanced arcs and interpretations. While Grant Morrison came closest to successfully rehabilitating Jean by weaving her history and various dichotomies into one thrilling whole, he, too, resorted to undermining her by killing her, after which she remained dead for more than a decade. Most recently, Tom Taylor and Benjamin Percy have both proven adept at handling Jean, displaying glimmers of promise in their portraits of her, which have been both surprisingly fresh and consistent with her history.

During the first fifteen plus years of her history, Jean was often subjected to the unconscious, or maybe even conscious, fears, biases, and uncertainties of writers who were not confident enough to know what to do with a character of such power and complexity - a fact that ultimately led to her first death. Likewise, for the most part, this millennium has seen Jean subjected to the conscious denial of her history as a survivor of abuse, trauma, addiction, and self-destruction, save for, as mentioned above, some of Morrison's and Percy's best moments with her, though even they did not adequately touch upon the aforementioned themes. As a result, her redemption and growth as a character have been greatly subjugated and undermined.

Nevertheless, I have hope for her. She is such a pivotal and vital character in Marvel history and has a large and eclectic enough fanbase, I don't think it will be so easy to send her away again. My hope is that Duggan will be allowed and willing to explore her fascinating facets and depths and be instrumental in permitting her to grow beyond what we've seen.

1. Jean Grey Feats

[Devaishwarya]

I agree MJ.
I always remind myself that these are different writers writing Jean in different era/setting...once they're respectful (imo, they have been) and don't **** all over the character, I'm happy. I cannot waste time and emotional energy comparing Percy's Jean with Taylor's with Simonson's with Claremont's...that makes no sense to me. As much as some wish them to be...they're never going to be the same iterations of the character because...comics. ie: No two/three writers will have the same idea about how this one character can serve their individual stories.

It seems the poly thing thing may be over as we've been definitely getting some solid Jott moments...In XM and Cable.
It was interesting, don't get me wrong, but I'm almost certain that that's one of the many "things" that were reviewed and abandoned when they discussed shifting and changing story things going forward. As plot-points go it really didn't add anything of note to the characters or the stories...other than to fuel pointless on-line talk. Best to let it die a quiet ineffectual death.

[Mercury]

I agree MJ.
I always remind myself that these are different writers writing Jean in different era/setting...once they're respectful (imo, they have been) and don't **** all over the character, I'm happy. I cannot waste time and emotional energy comparing Percy's Jean with Taylor's with Simonson's with Claremont's...that makes no sense to me.

While I totally get and understand where you're coming from, there should be some consistency, i.e., a through-line and respect for the core characteristics of a character, even in the depiction of comic book characters, no?

In my opinion, I think this is what distinguishes good from lazy and cliched comic book writing.

[Devaishwarya]

There hasn't ever been a 100% consistent through-line for any character since inception.
Similarities at best...completely OOC at worst...but never consistent to that extent some fans (not only of Jean) expect. Claremont's Jean wasn't Stan Lee's Jean. Why would we expect Duggan's Jean, 40 years later, to be Claremont's Jean?...Even when you factor in how much she's been through conceptually since Claremont to Taylor?

[Daedra]

I don't think lines like "you can rest easy, Jean.. I have it" or "I can't hold this forever" is that bad. I don't even see it as a slight. Both of the feats involved with those lines were huge - Jean lifting a growing space station and throwing it and the other lifting a falling building/tower under water.

Personally I love that Jean is very powerful but I don't want her to be all powerful where she can do anything and everything without any effort or struggle. I feel the same for all of the characters. I do think they will show Jean putting more effort into her tk feats due to the redefinition of her not being an omega tk - which is annoying but again her dominant power is going to be telepathy (the omega mutant data page described their omega power as their dominant power).

Personally (but I think others would agree) I am not looking for an all-powerful Jean, I just want her to be effective & incisive with what she currently has (and we are talking about a lot) ……I get it, Jean would be the perfect secretary and an awesome librarian…..I just would love her to be a warrior as well, some fights and struggles should get “close & personal” and I happens to believe Jean tends to be mightily enjoyable in that type of situation but I’m not sure Marvel knows this anymore.

[Mercury]

There hasn't ever been a 100% consistent through-line for any character since inception.
Similarities at best...completely OOC at worst...but never consistent to that extent some fans (not only of Jean) expect. Claremont's Jean wasn't Stan Lee's Jean. Why would we expect Duggan's Jean, 40 years later, to be Claremont's Jean?...Even when you factor in how much she's been through conceptually since Claremont to Taylor?

Of course, no comic book character has had a "100% consistent through-line," but the majority of the depictions of the most popular characters have been mostly consistent - think Superman, Batman, Cyclops, Thor, and the list goes on. Furthermore, Jean's core characteristics and through-line are rather simple and logical. I would describe her as such:

Jean Grey is an innately and supremely empathic and benevolent character who possesses nearly unlimited powers and boundless potential, and who has endured and persevered through trauma, abuse, addiction, and self-destruction, spanning from her childhood to her adulthood, as both a member and leader of the X-Men.

There, done. One wouldn't even have to go into the particulars of every arc and storyline she has been a part of to begin to establish a firm foundation for her character. Also, I want to clarify that quite a few writers have "gotten her" since Lee and Claremont, including, as I mentioned above, Morrison and Percy. The problem is that there have also been more than a handful of writers that have blatantly and flagrantly bastardized her, her story, and character. Perhaps I take this too seriously, but it is only because she has meant and still means a lot to me as a character. I have found much solace and comfort in the best of her stories.

[Devaishwarya]

You and quite a few of her fans would describe her as such...and even I would agree, in part...And that's great, except...we are not writing the character(s).

Again...Claremont had a different concept of the Jean he was writing that was completely different to Stan Lee. Louise Simonson had a different concept of Jean based on her coming out of suspended animation. Seagle, Morrison, Rosenburg, HiX-Man, Percy and now Duggan...they all have varying facets of the Jean they want to write, based on the story they're telling. Tonally, Percy's Jean isn't HiX-Man's Jean because X-Force is a different story to X-Men. And yes certain traits should be could be consistent but who tells the writers which is which?

And while we can compare all of them and say which was better, the best or the worst...to what end?

Did Duggan do such a terrible job in PS:XM and XM 01 that he must go back and pour through every Jean appearance...to, by our varied standards, "get her right"?

If that is what's expected of these writers, for every character they write, the fan-bases would be living in a state of perpetual disappointment.

If you can acknowledge more writers have "gotten" Jean than have "bastardised" her then...just ignore and forget those writers because in your estimation they failed and are more or less irrelevant to this discussion of appreciation.

[Mercury]

Did Duggan do such a terrible job in PS:XM and XM 01 that he must go back and pour through every Jean appearance...to, by our varied standards, "get her right"?

For the most part, I have liked what Duggan has done with Jean, as I shared above, or maybe it was on the previous page. In either case, obviously we, as fans, are not the writers, though many fans have become writers on various books they loved growing up. It is also obvious that, for the most part, discussing the quality of and differences in the writing of Jean is pointless or, at the very least, just a fun exercise. Then again, one never knows who is viewing this thread and what influence what is written here might have. Ultimately, this is a thread dedicated to her character, so I see discussing these things here as totally relevant and interesting.

Additionally, I think fans of Jean take issue with the drastic and often contradictory variances in how she is depicted precisely because a lot of other characters aren't so easily and dismissively changed based on the wants and whims of writers. It is both puzzling and frustrating that she is so often mishandled and misappropriated. This is also a topic worthy of discussion on this thread.

I suppose we could just dedicate this thread to posting fan art and gushing about how much we love her as a character without applying any critical thinking or ideas of our own concerning her character, but that would make for a rather dull, dreary, and truly pointless thread.

[Tank]

I don't think lines like "you can rest easy, Jean.. I have it" or "I can't hold this forever" is that bad. I don't even see it as a slight. Both of the feats involved with those lines were huge - Jean lifting a growing space station and throwing it and the other lifting a falling building/tower under water.

Personally I love that Jean is very powerful but I don't want her to be all powerful where she can do anything and everything without any effort or struggle. I feel the same for all of the characters. I do think they will show Jean putting more effort into her tk feats due to the redefinition of her not being an omega tk - which is annoying but again her dominant power is going to be telepathy (the omega mutant data page described their omega power as their dominant power).

Another trend I'm seeing on x-twitter is fans going off even when Jean does big things in the comics. I think it because they fall for the bait and are primed to see Jean as flopping rather than the opposite because other stans of other characters are constantly popping off on anything Jean does including posting negatively about King in Black 4 and even Planet Sized - both great showings from Jean but if I hadn't read those issues myself I would have thought Jean flopped by the posts I had read on twitter the day before both came out. I wish some Jean fans wouldn't fall for the bait or tag the creators in diatribes especially when the writers do well with Jean. I think Duggan has done well so far, so there is no reason to go after him on twitter. Maybe I'm too effected by it but I hate seeing x-men fans on this forum or other forums I belong to generalizing how Jean fans are so awful when it is just a few people behaving badly. But after 20 years you'd think I'd be more immune to this.

The thing is it only really happens to Jean or as someone mentioned Susan Storm. Iceman or Magneto or Storm would not be able to keep up what they did in Planet Sized idefinitely, but the only person who has had these sort of comments both from 1st person and 2nd person is Jean. It’s not like all she did was earth shattering or something. It comes off as bad/negative because she doesn’t seem self assured or confident which all these other characters get to do.

She might as well be saying “im useful but only for a little bit ok? Dont think im that powerful!” It’s cringey after all she’s done and gone through, it’s like they want to reset her back literally to what a stereotypical person would think of her in the 60s. But even in the 60s she showed fire that I dont see in present Jean.

[Omega_DCD]

I don't think lines like "you can rest easy, Jean.. I have it" or "I can't hold this forever" is that bad. I don't even see it as a slight. Both of the feats involved with those lines were huge - Jean lifting a growing space station and throwing it and the other lifting a falling building/tower under water.

Plenty of other characters perform huge feats without the same "can't do X for too long/too heavy/too much" kind of qualifiers. In PSXM(since it is a recent example with a lot going on), I don't remember any of the other characters remarking as such. No one told Storm or Magneto or Iceman to breathe easy after performing a task.

She doesn't need to be omnipotent, but phrasing could be better. No one would accuse Marvel Boy of being omnipotent(especially at this time that I'm showing), but look how he answers Speedball, despite the obvious strain and physical toll

Screenshot_20210710-190654_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

And the strain DID end up being overwhelming, but NOT due to his (lack of) resolve at least.

She's shown that kind of conviction plenty of times

Screenshot_20190930-135149_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

Screenshot_20210710-191349_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

No undercutting necessary.

*Edit* Mental High-Five Tank! That's what I get for taking too long with my post, but those are my sentiments exactly. We even used the same number and same exact people in the PSXM example