Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Devaishwarya]

That's a relief, and thank you for the positive feedback. By the way, what is your perspective? What are your thoughts on Jean, character, her history? I am interested in reading what you think.

This is going to be a tad long-ish...

"Jean Grey is an innately and supremely empathic and benevolent character who possesses nearly unlimited powers and boundless potential, and who has endured and persevered through trauma, abuse, addiction, and self-destruction, spanning from her childhood to her adulthood, as both a member and leader of the X-Men."

To use your quote and opinion as a starter:

I do see Jean as empathic and benevolent...as shown in her literary history (of what I've read and am familiar with) from Claremont to Taylor.

I do see her having unlimited potential...again, as I've read from Claremont, Simonson, Morrison, Taylor and recently Duggan. The unlimited powers...on the one hand...yes? On the other...writers will write what they write. I'm not holding them to my expectations of how I think she should be written, power-wise. If Duggan pushes her beyond her limits, fine (as an OL, she should explore those limits). If he doesn't...that's also fine. As a fan...I don't necessarily want or expect that potential and power to be achieved...explored, yes. Achieved...no. (I feel the same about ALL my faves)

With respect to the third part of the quote...this is where we may differ.
Yes...she's been through multiple trauma and everything else you've stated (though I view the abuses self-inflicted and otherwise from a more open, contextual perspective)...ALL the X-Men/Mutants have experienced those things as individuals and as a collective over course of their literary lives. It doesn't define who she is (who they are.) If nothing else, it shows great strength and resilience to grow and live and love beyond those bad experiences.
My view on the X-Men as a whole, and why I love them, is that despite the insurmountable challenges they strive and persevere and win (sometimes), that's what defines them, for me.

I haven't read ALL her appearances by ALL the writers who've written her so my perspective and appreciation for her is solely based on the ones I've read and enjoyed to varying degrees. Claremont in X-Men. Simonson in the original X-Factor (my favourite iteration) Seagle's X-Men. Morrison's NXM (also a favourite iteration). Taylor's X:MRed. They all had variations of Jean with some characterisations I loved more than others but...none of them I would say were grossly egregious to the character. Yes there were questionable moments...every written character has had those...but nothing to make me say definitively "This is not Jean." Or, "Jean would never do that." HiX-Man's Jean was...okies...she had her moments.
I would say, now that I'm thinking on it...Duggan's take, from what little there is, sounds and feels similar to Louise Simonson's Jean who is my definitive "Jean".
I know a lot of readers say Claremont is their definitive take on the character (and many of the characters they love) but...imo, the P/DP era wasn't the 'real' Jean. Not entirely. And it greatly overshadows the Jean Claremont was writing before. Whereas Original X-Factor Jean coming out of suspended animation felt like a truer continuance of pre Phoenix Jean. Simonson showed her Strength of character and power. Empathy. More importantly her Emotional Independence (I felt prior to the Phoenix, Claremont focused mainly on her relationship with/to Scott to the minimisation of her as an individual.) Simonson presented a fully realised woman and individual who didn't feel secondary to any other character. That's the Jean I love. That's the Jean I hope to see more of in X-Men.

[WallStreeter]

“you wanna get dragged too”

Attachment 111392

Lol. Awesome.

[Wiccan]

This is going to be a tad long-ish...

"Jean Grey is an innately and supremely empathic and benevolent character who possesses nearly unlimited powers and boundless potential, and who has endured and persevered through trauma, abuse, addiction, and self-destruction, spanning from her childhood to her adulthood, as both a member and leader of the X-Men."

To use your quote and opinion as a starter:

I do see Jean as empathic and benevolent...as shown in her literary history (of what I've read and am familiar with) from Claremont to Taylor.

I do see her having unlimited potential...again, as I've read from Claremont, Simonson, Morrison, Taylor and recently Duggan. The unlimited powers...on the one hand...yes? On the other...writers will write what they write. I'm not holding them to my expectations of how I think she should be written, power-wise. If Duggan pushes her beyond her limits, fine (as an OL, she should explore those limits). If he doesn't...that's also fine. As a fan...I don't necessarily want or expect that potential and power to be achieved...explored, yes. Achieved...no. (I feel the same about ALL my faves)

With respect to the third part of the quote...this is where we may differ.
Yes...she's been through multiple trauma and everything else you've stated (though I view the abuses self-inflicted and otherwise from a more open, contextual perspective)...ALL the X-Men/Mutants have experienced those things as individuals and as a collective over course of their literary lives. It doesn't define who she is (who they are.) If nothing else, it shows great strength and resilience to grow and live and love beyond those bad experiences.
My view on the X-Men as a whole, and why I love them, is that despite the insurmountable challenges they strive and persevere and win (sometimes), that's what defines them, for me.

I haven't read ALL her appearances by ALL the writers who've written her so my perspective and appreciation for her is solely based on the ones I've read and enjoyed to varying degrees. Claremont in X-Men. Simonson in the original X-Factor (my favourite iteration) Seagle's X-Men. Morrison's NXM (also a favourite iteration). Taylor's X:MRed. They all had variations of Jean with some characterisations I loved more than others but...none of them I would say were grossly egregious to the character. Yes there were questionable moments...every written character has had those...but nothing to make me say definitively "This is not Jean." Or, "Jean would never do that." HiX-Man's Jean was...okies...she had her moments.
I would say, now that I'm thinking on it...Duggan's take, from what little there is, sounds and feels similar to Louise Simonson's Jean who is my definitive "Jean".
I know a lot of readers say Claremont is their definitive take on the character (and many of the characters they love) but...imo, the P/DP era wasn't the 'real' Jean. Not entirely. And it greatly overshadows the Jean Claremont was writing before. Whereas Original X-Factor Jean coming out of suspended animation felt like a truer continuance of pre Phoenix Jean. Simonson showed her Strength of character and power. Empathy. More importantly her Emotional Independence (I felt prior to the Phoenix, Claremont focused mainly on her relationship with/to Scott to the minimisation of her as an individual.) Simonson presented a fully realised woman and individual who didn't feel secondary to any other character. That's the Jean I love. That's the Jean I hope to see more of in X-Men.

What do you mean with pre-Phoenix Claremont?.. He only wrote a couple issues with her in it before she became Phoenix.

[Devaishwarya]

Sorry...I meant Jean pre-Dark Phoenix...not pre-Phoenix.

[Mercury]

Firstly, thank you for responding to my question, Devaishwarya. I greatly appreciate it. Also, you have given me much to think about. For the most part, our views and opinions of Jean are the same.

This is going to be a tad long-ish...

"Jean Grey is an innately and supremely empathic and benevolent character who possesses nearly unlimited powers and boundless potential, and who has endured and persevered through trauma, abuse, addiction, and self-destruction, spanning from her childhood to her adulthood, as both a member and leader of the X-Men."

To use your quote and opinion as a starter:

I do see Jean as empathic and benevolent...as shown in her literary history (of what I've read and am familiar with) from Claremont to Taylor.

I do see her having unlimited potential...again, as I've read from Claremont, Simonson, Morrison, Taylor and recently Duggan. The unlimited powers...on the one hand...yes? On the other...writers will write what they write. I'm not holding them to my expectations of how I think she should be written, power-wise. If Duggan pushes her beyond her limits, fine (as an OL, she should explore those limits). If he doesn't...that's also fine. As a fan...I don't necessarily want or expect that potential and power to be achieved...explored, yes. Achieved...no. (I feel the same about ALL my faves)

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote above. I will say this, I do not so much desire that writers characterize her as all-powerful all the time as I do that they acknowledge her formidable power and potential without having to make a point of repeatedly having her note how impressive uses of her powers are "too much" for her. At this point, it's become a cliche, one that is not accurate to her history nor indicative of her strength and capabilities. Still, as you've noted, I am not the writer(s), so this is just me venting.

With respect to the third part of the quote...this is where we may differ.
Yes...she's been through multiple trauma and everything else you've stated (though I view the abuses self-inflicted and otherwise from a more open, contextual perspective)...ALL the X-Men/Mutants have experienced those things as individuals and as a collective over course of their literary lives. It doesn't define who she is (who they are.) If nothing else, it shows great strength and resilience to grow and live and love beyond those bad experiences.
My view on the X-Men as a whole, and why I love them, is that despite the insurmountable challenges they strive and persevere and win (sometimes), that's what defines them, for me.

I wouldn't say the abuse and trauma she has endured - which includes what she underwent as a child, along with while on the space shuttle, while believing her friends and lover to be dead, and at the hands of sadists (e.g., Mesmero, Mastermind, the Hellfire Club) - define her, but they certainly shaped and deeply impacted her. She wasn't just disturbed by these events; they caused her to unravel, disassociate, debase herself, harm and endanger others, self-destruct, and kill herself, albeit in a moment of true heroism. As I wrote to another poster in a private conversation regarding this very topic:

"Much like an addict who becomes habituated to drinking, using drugs, being promiscuous, and other unhealthy and self-destructive behaviors in order to block the pain and shame of abuse and trauma that threaten to overwhelm them, during the Dark Phoenix Saga she, i.e., her soul (her body was at the bottom of Jamaica Bay), became addicted to both her power AND Mastermind's illusions, which afforded her what substances afford a substance abuser: escape. Why wouldn't she want to escape and lose herself in these illusions? I mean, on the one hand, she had the option of facing and dealing with all of the pain, abuse, guilt, trauma, and self-blame (re: Annie's death) she had endured, which was compacted and compounded at that point, and on the other hand, she had a whole other reality to lose herself in, one in which she was loved, confident, and powerful and didn't have to face or deal with the aforementioned."

This is an important part of her history that I think many people, fans and writers alike, tend to overlook and underplay. Of course, this is partly due to the confusing retcons. However, the Classic X-Men backstories centered on her during the Phoenix period are essential reading in order to clarify much of the confusion. Again, this aspect of her life doesn't define her per se but is fundamental to who she is and is rarely handled with the care and nuance it deserves. Nevertheless, I totally agree with and appreciate your "view on the X-Men as a whole," which certainly applies to Jean, too.

I haven't read ALL her appearances by ALL the writers who've written her so my perspective and appreciation for her is solely based on the ones I've read and enjoyed to varying degrees. Claremont in X-Men. Simonson in the original X-Factor (my favourite iteration) Seagle's X-Men. Morrison's NXM (also a favourite iteration). Taylor's X:MRed. They all had variations of Jean with some characterisations I loved more than others but...none of them I would say were grossly egregious to the character. Yes there were questionable moments...every written character has had those...but nothing to make me say definitively "This is not Jean." Or, "Jean would never do that." HiX-Man's Jean was...okies...she had her moments.
I would say, now that I'm thinking on it...Duggan's take, from what little there is, sounds and feels similar to Louise Simonson's Jean who is my definitive "Jean".

I haven't read all of her appearances either, though I am certainly attempting to! Also, I thoroughly enjoy all of the writers you've mentioned and credit them with much of the growth of my love for Jean as a character. For the most part, I also would not say that those writers did anything that was "grossly egregious to" Jean, save for maybe Morrison killing her off - another death - especially after he had managed to synthesize some of her best and most overlooked qualities so successfully. That decision still stings. (Don't even get me started on the Emma/Scott affair.) Still, I love much of what he did with her. Also, I am not happy with and, quite frankly, feel confused by what Hickman has done with her - I just don't get it - though I often credit him with perhaps having a long game in mind and I do love most of what he's done to shake things up. As for Duggan, I've liked the majority of what he's written for Jean. Again, I could do without another scene of her feeling the need to say that she "can't" or is barely able to manage to do something, but I am very much looking forward to reading his take on her. He has given her some wonderful, luminous moments.

[Continued in the next post.]

[Mercury]

[Continued.]

I know a lot of readers say Claremont is their definitive take on the character (and many of the characters they love) but...imo, the P/DP era wasn't the 'real' Jean. Not entirely. And it greatly overshadows the Jean Claremont was writing before. Whereas Original X-Factor Jean coming out of suspended animation felt like a truer continuance of pre Phoenix Jean. Simonson showed her Strength of character and power. Empathy. More importantly her Emotional Independence (I felt prior to the Phoenix, Claremont focused mainly on her relationship with/to Scott to the minimisation of her as an individual.) Simonson presented a fully realised woman and individual who didn't feel secondary to any other character. That's the Jean I love. That's the Jean I hope to see more of in X-Men.

I disagree with your opinion that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix era Jean "wasn't the 'real' Jean." It has been established that when the Phoenix Force put her body in suspended animation, it used her conscious - her soul - and bonded with it in order to "become" her. Everything the Phoenix Force did, using Jean's essence, as Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Jean felt, experienced, had a hand in, and remembers. Nevertheless, I understand what you mean and where you're coming from.

Also, I agree with most of your points regarding both Claremont's handling of her and Simonson's brilliant take on her. Incidentally, while researching and reviewing her appearances, starting at the very beginning with X-Men #1 (I'm up to X-Men #133 now), I have noticed the subtlest yet most impactful shifts and turns her character took and that I hadn't noticed years ago, during my initial readings of those issues. Between issues #57 and #66, there's a slight but marked change in how she is written, i.e., weaker and more passive, and treated by her teammates, though, even in these issues, she has shining moments. Nevertheless, this change seemed to bleed into Claremont's run, understandably so.

This leads me to my last point: As I have already noted in this thread, I think I've realized what my biggest issue is with how Claremont wrote her - and he was always my favorite X-Men and Jean writer, so this realization came as quite a surprise to me. It is something seemingly insignificant but highly impactful, especially because of the influence his writing would end up having over the X-Men mythos for years to come. When he had Scott qualify his concern for her increasing powers as Phoenix by writing him referring to her in his thoughts as "once the weakest X-Man." I never noticed this line before, and I have read the Dark Phoenix Saga more times than I care to admit. Perhaps the line stood out because I had just finished reading and realizing just how powerful she was during most of the first 66-issue run. In either case, reading that line recently made so much sense of so much of the mess she has endured as a character since.

Though I know Jean was/is one of Claremont's favorite, if not his favorite, character, he unwittingly undermined her and set her up with this description, especially coming from the leader of the X-Men and her destined partner. He chose to underscore the radicality of what he was doing with and for Jean by characterizing her as "once the weakest member," something that had never been done before and which, going by how she was regarded in the first 66 issues, was simply not true. I won't get into all of the "Jean Grey feats" I've chronicled in the Twitter thread (I've linked to it here before), but she was often instrumental in the team's success and was the only member Xavier trusted enough to speak for and represent him, and to take his place.

Anyway, thank you for indulging me. This post has gone on long enough, lol. I look forward to more discussions!

[Grinning Soul]

Mercury, go back to your study or mamma Grin will pout at you! :P

[Mercury]

Mercury, go back to your study or mamma Grin will pout at you! :P

I completed all of my studying, momma.

[Celestialbodies]

Fine. But I *am* going to ignore whatever is said about it. Seriously: I'm not engaging in a discussion here.

Things that I can think of the top of my head. Categorically stated because I do *not* want to get into a discussion here.

- Bad characterisation, for many different reasons, the worst being: she curses and acts tough, but she's actually a push-over.
- Doesn't care about friends or team-mates and suggested a person she *knows* is deeply traumatised to take her place as the moral compass of a team that was too much for her to handle.
- Tosses Hank around when she finds out what he did, but doesn't raise hell about it, doesn't confront Charles and tries to ensure this will never happen again (and because of that, Hank keeps on with his unenthical, abusive behaviour), doesn't refuse to continue to take part of a nation which acts like that
- X-Force was the main book where she was a part of the permanent cast and yet Percy didn't bother to show her feelings about things that should concern the character (why did she even join Krakoa, how did she vote about Alex being in the Hellions team, about Madelyne, about the crucible, etc...). And that's because...
- ... her role is of a girlfriend, a sexy one who straddles her guy, but comes running when he asks, even though she quit the team.
- Mouth piece for the writer, at the cost of her characterization.

I enjoyed Percy's Jean, but I agree with most of everything here, thanks for sharing.


For me I think there are varying degrees in my enjoyment of Jean for at least 2 years. My enjoyment of Jean in X-force peaked and plateau in the first handful of issues.

Everything else was wheels spinning which is unfortunate because while used consistently in X-Force. Nothing else she was doing concurrently interested me outside a rare issue or two such as GSX and X-men under Hickman. Looking back a lot my enjoyment of Percy's Jean came from her being relatively better than how any other writer were using her for the time.

I liked this succinct description of Jean as part of a broader metaphor of the team's dynamics. Both personality wise and powers wise, Jean is able to play lead or support pretty much effortlessly

Such a great explanation of Jean, something I wish we got to see more of. I'd like writers to explore more consistently the relationship between her personality and power.


I haven't always agreed with the choices made for Teen Jean but efforts were made to explore who she was for better or worse. In ways Jean hasn't seen since Red, Percy was nice, Ayala I enjoy, Duggan is keeping her busy. I can appreciate that at the moment.

[Grinning Soul]

I completed all of my studying, momma. :D

That's my kiddo! :)

[Grinning Soul]

I enjoyed Percy's Jean, but I agree with most of everything here, thanks for sharing.

For me I think there are varying degrees in my enjoyment of Jean for at least 2 years. My enjoyment of Jean in X-force peaked and plateau in the first handful of issues.

Everything else was wheels spinning which is unfortunate because while used consistently in X-Force. Nothing else she was doing concurrently interested me outside a rare issue or two such as GSX and X-men under Hickman. Looking back a lot my enjoyment of Percy's Jean came from her being relatively better than how any other writer were using her for the time.

Yeah. That happens: sometimes we think something is good just because the alternatives are really bad.

Like I was talking to Lucyinthesky some posts ago, it's better that Jean is out of X-Force. For her to be part of the cast, considering the direction he's taking Hank, the dynamics of the book would have to shift to the conflict between both characters or it would mean (even more of) character assassination for Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

I have a weird sense of humour and I am a horrible person. But I just saw this and it made me laugh and I can't resist sharing it! :D



- Jean: Marvel Girl?

Oh, girl, stop it! My belly hurts! :D

[Mosage]

On the matter of polyamorous relationship
lukaswerneck_175506242_126135269545883_123455204125464549_n.jpg
By Lucas Werneck

[Mercury]

...sometimes we think something is good just because the alternatives are really bad.

This is astute. I'm still ruminating on all that you wrote regarding Percy's take on her, especially in our PM chats. You've given me a lot to ponder.

On the matter of polyamorous relationship
lukaswerneck_175506242_126135269545883_123455204125464549_n.jpg
By Lucas Werneck

omfg. This is too cute.

[Mercury]

For the record, I'm nuts. I just tweeted this out yesterday and sent a copy to Duggan, lol.

I’ve had an epiphany: I want Jean to end her relationship with Scott, make it clear that they will always remain the best of friends, no matter what, and that they will continue to CO-LEAD the new team. Furthermore, I want her to end her tryst with Logan and also promise him her friendship forever. Afterward, I want her to burn the green dress, mask, gloves, *and* boots, don a new fit designed to her specifications by Russell Dauterman, all before whistle-cooing the Phoenix Force back to her, where it belongs. THEN, I want her to advise the Quiet Council that they will be approving the resurrection of her slaughtered sister, niece, and nephew - all mutants - immediately. Subsequently, I want her to create another home for herself and her family on the exact spot of the Blue Area of the Moon on which she killed herself as Dark Phoenix (yes, it was her, i.e., her soul) & take a few days off to bond & catch up with her newly resurrected family. After some much-needed rest and leisure and having processed her recent life-altering decisions I want her to return in full force as the incomparably empathic, powerful, no-nonsense badass Omega Telepath AND Omega Telekinetic she has always been and still is. She is also to take Synch and Laura Kinney specifically under her wings. Finally, she is not to be fucked with or undermined again, but allowed to flourish and grow - preferably as a single woman for some time - as she was meant to, fully claiming her crown and throne as the First Lady, literally and figuratively, of the X-Men and of mutants as a whole.