Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Devaishwarya]

LOL that might have been a "poke" at my post, Merc. And one with which I also wholeheartedly disagree.

My hesitance to accept such "deep, philosophical dives" stems mainly from the understanding that they are the perspectives of one person that may be shared by a few or even many. But it doesn't make it absolute. Because again, that's just an interpretation.

[Mercury]

LOL that might have been a "poke" at my post, Merc. And one with which I also wholeheartedly disagree.

LOL. Glad to read that you don't agree with it either.

LOL, that might have been a "poke" at my post, Merc. And one with which I also wholeheartedly disagree.

My hesitance to accept such "deep, philosophical dives" stems mainly from the understanding that they are the perspectives of one person that may be shared by a few or even many. But it doesn't make it absolute. Because again, that's just an interpretation.

I totally understand where you're come from. However, in defense of my perspective, let me be clear about something: My perspective stems from what is both implied and literally shown in the work itself, specifically in the Dark Phoenix Saga. In other words, I am not assuming Jean was abused - by definition, she was abused. Furthermore, Byrne's depictions of her expressions after she's broken free of Mastermind's control coupled with Claremont's writing of her subsequent behavior certainly paint a portrait of a traumatized individual. I have both experienced - this may lead to some thinking, You are just projecting then - and studied abuse, trauma, and addiction, so I am aware of the pernicious effects of all three on an experiential and intellectual level.

I have recently had four to five different conversations with people inside and outside of this forum in which it was suggested to me that Mastermind only seduced and urged Jean to "tap into" her shadow and latent desires. I can't begin to articulate how much this bothers, disturbs, and even angers me. As I have said to these people - and as hypocritical as this may come across, considering I just finished admitting that all interpretations of art are valid - in my opinion (and I would like to stress that this is totally my opinion), attributing the Dark Phoenix's emergence solely to Jean's shadow and latent desires is a disservice to both the character and to the depth of the story. I want to go as far as saying that it may even be a disservice to those who have survived abuse and trauma, but I won't. And, for the record, if Claremont himself used this reasoning, though I honestly don't believe that he would, I would say the same thing to him as well.

Before moving on with the discussion, I do want to point out that victims of sexual abuse, be it rape or molestation, have sometimes admitted to feeling great shame and guilt not simply because of the acts that were perpetrated against them, but because there were instances in which they experienced sexual arousal during those acts, even though they were and remained unwilling participants in the abuse. As far as I am concerned, what Mesmero and Mastermind did to Jean constitutes psychic rape. They invaded, no, penetrated her psyche and deposited into it lies, illusions, false memories, and suggestions. Furthermore, in both instances, she was oversexualized as a result of the abuse. Mind you, I'm not saying she was sexually abused, but she did take on the persona of a prostitute in one instance and ended up marrying, kissing, and dressing in lingerie for the abuser in the other instance. I bring this up only to provide food for thought.

Ultimately, I have no problem admitting and accepting that to some, maybe even many people, my interpretation of the DPS as an allegory of abuse, trauma, and addiction is a deeply personal one. I do want to stress, however, that my opinion that Jean was both abused and traumatized, and became addicted to her power as unleashed by the Phoenix Force, is based on the writing and artwork itself, i.e., I am not simply assuming things that may have happened off-panel; I am interpreting exactly what was written, drawn, and published.

[Mercury]

Let me clarify something else: If some of you read the DPS as just a tale of corruption and possession and don't read anything deeper into it, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. In fact, I totally understand and consider valid this interpretation, too. All of your interpretations are valid, especially if they have meaning to you.

I'll shut up now, lol.

[WallStreeter]

I think it’s part of why Fox twice botched the Dark Phoenix story. They likely felt uncomfortable using undertones of abuse, rape, trauma, and addiction in a superhero movie. The worst part of this story is the victim, Jean, died.

I do think Dark Phoenix the movie was great as Jean pulled herself together and lived. Plus no rape undertones.

[MechaJeanix]

I've listened to that episode twice and I'm on my third listen now. Initially, I didn't agree with their assertion that Jean is a "bully," but whereas before I didn't understand where they were coming from at all, after reading the first 66 issues, I can now sort of see what they mean, especially in regards to how she reacted in certain instances, particularly toward Beast. She telekinetically flings him around a few times during those first 66 issues, though he wasn't doing anything that necessarily warranted that reaction from her. Quite frankly, I love seeing her be so assertive, lol.

Sara Century is great - we follow each other on Twitter - and I love what she brought to the table in this episode. I really enjoy and mostly agree with Connor's take on things, but he got it wrong when he assessed Jean as weak, boring, or dull - I can't remember his exact wording - during the first 66-issue run of the X-Men. Then again, most people assume that she was this shrinking violet who contributed minimally to the team back then, which is so far beyond the truth. Just check out my thread on Twitter (link below) and it's clear just how assertive and integral to the team she was. She has what have become some of my favorite moments of hers during that run. Admittedly, before really taking the time to go over those issues, I minimized her power and importance during that era, too. Perhaps I was also influenced by that line Claremont gave to Cyclops, which I've already pointed out a few times in this thread - "She was once the weakest X-Man." In either case, no, she was not. She and Bobby have always been the most powerful of the original X-Men because their powers transcend the tangible.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865

Well I do think Jean had a reason for showing off towards the Beast in the first issue, he was trying to kiss her on the cheek if I recall correctly. But yes I love an assertive Jean, like when she beats up a caged Sabretooth in X-men 28 or when she smashed through Emma's mind in Morrison's run. That is one of my fav things about Jean.. yes she has big emotions, a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion but those things have limits when it comes to certain people in her life. It makes her more human and more relatable.

I enjoy your read through of the original x-men issues. Whenever I come across as fellow Jean fan on twitter I tend to follow! On another version of this thread (it gets rebooted every year) Phoenix_Studies ( a poster who rarely posts anymore) posted a lot of scans from the original X-men days and his take was similar to yours. Jean wasn't as weak as others made her out to be and her powers were often useful and growing. And as you know once she gained telepathy she was instantly a capable telepath.

I actually enjoy the early X-men issues. I know a lot of fans criticize them heavily (especially judging them by today's standards) but I find them charming... even the really bad issues.

[MechaJeanix]

There is definitely room for analysis, interpretation, debate and "takes" on any art. I love a good analysis on an X-men arc, run, issue, or character but I also like that you can read the X-men without all these extra things, especially the annoying think pieces that aren't essential. You can enjoy the comics without any of the fluff. I like takes that are in good faith but sometimes articles on the comics are super annoying and don't really add much except "you thought this comic was good but let me show you all the ways it was really bad".

I enjoy The Claremont Run twitter account. I think it is very useful and often has thoughtful commentary. I'm sure there are other good sources too. The Cerebro Podcast is good because it has thoughtful discussion - the discord related to it also tends to have good discussions and from my lurking on it.

To keep it on topic I loved that the Claremont Run recently discussed the classic X-men story where Jean was first shown in the White Phoenix look. Mercury also posted about the story recently if I'm not mistaken. I really enjoyed all the "Classic X-men" backstories that featured Jean. I love it when I read about fans discovering the Classic X-men backup stories for the first time. The Classic X-men story where Jean merges with Phoenix and the one with her as White Phoenix are essential reading imo.

[Devaishwarya]

I think it’s part of why Fox twice botched the Dark Phoenix story. They likely felt uncomfortable using undertones of abuse, rape, trauma, and addiction in a superhero movie. The worst part of this story is the victim, Jean, died.

I do think Dark Phoenix the movie was great as Jean pulled herself together and lived. Plus no rape undertones.

That not the reason why they botched the X-Movies. Even if they had gone with a story closer to the true DP tale, they would have still made a mess of it.

[Mercury]

I think itÂ’s part of why Fox twice botched the Dark Phoenix story. They likely felt uncomfortable using undertones of abuse, rape, trauma, and addiction in a superhero movie. The worst part of this story is the victim, Jean, died. ... I do think Dark Phoenix the movie was great as Jean pulled herself together and lived. Plus no rape undertones.

Their unwillingness to delve that deeply into those topics and themes is certainly one of the reasons those adaptations were unsuccessful. I mean, once you remove the emotional implications central to the DPS, it devolves into an overblown and melodramatic trope: A woman gets power, can't handle it, and becomes unstable as a result. However, another reason I think adaptations of DPS have been unsuccessful is that it is a saga, one that warrants being unfolded throughout the course of several films, much like the Infinity War was adapted. DPS is as much an intimate tale as it is a cosmic one; a human story as much as an alien one.

Interestingly enough, I liked the Dark Phoenix film more than I thought I would and more than I did X-Men: The Last Stand, though, ultimately, both were unsuccessful adaptations.

Well I do think Jean had a reason for showing off towards the Beast in the first issue, he was trying to kiss her on the cheek if I recall correctly. But yes I love an assertive Jean, like when she beats up a caged Sabretooth in X-men 28 or when she smashed through Emma's mind in Morrison's run. That is one of my fav things about Jean.. yes she has big emotions, a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion but those things have limits when it comes to certain people in her life. It makes her more human and more relatable.

Actually, in the first issue, Hank only caresses her face with his finger, but he did cross physical boundaries. And assertive, rather than a bully, is the better way to describe her. Jean has always been feisty and short-tempered, ever since the first issue, and she's displayed this during pivotal moments throughout her history. In addition to her handling of Hank on a few occasions, other good earlier examples include (I was ready to post six examples but realized I can only post three at a time, so I'll just leave it at these):

I enjoy your read through of the original x-men issues. ... Jean wasn't as weak as others made her out to be and her powers were often useful and growing. And as you know once she gained telepathy she was instantly a capable telepath. ... I actually enjoy the early X-men issues. I know a lot of fans criticize them heavily (especially judging them by today's standards) but I find them charming... even the really bad issues.

Thanks! Also, I agree with everything you've written. The earlier issues are truly charming and whimsical.

There is definitely room for analysis, interpretation, debate and "takes" on any art. I love a good analysis on an X-men arc, run, issue, or character but I also like that you can read the X-men without all these extra things... ...I loved that the Claremont Run recently discussed the classic X-men story where Jean was first shown in the White Phoenix look. Mercury also posted about the story recently if I'm not mistaken. ... The Classic X-men story where Jean merges with Phoenix and the one with her as White Phoenix are essential reading imo.

Exactly! This is one of the things I love about Claremont's run on the X-Men: You can enjoy his issues at face value or delve into deep analysis; either way, his work is uber enjoyable. Also, I did recently post the entire story "Flights of Angels," which is where the White Phoenix first appears. Finally, I agree, the Classic X-Men backstories are essential reading.

That not the reason why they botched the X-Movies. Even if they had gone with a story closer to the true DP tale, they would have still made a mess of it.

I agree. Again, you can't successfully adapt this saga into one movie, even if you exclude the darker undercurrents. Personally, I think you need at least two to three films.

[Mercury]

WONDERFUL art by Patricio Oliver:

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

That's beautiful!

[Mercury]

It really is beautiful, Kitty. I love it.

Also, I'm listening for the third time to the Cerebro podcast episode dedicated to Jean that I linked to on the previous page. During the segment in which Connor and Sara talk about the violations Jean suffered during the Dark Phoenix Saga, Connor flat out says, "We've never dealt with the fact that Mastermind raped her, repeatedly." Wow. I don't know how I didn't remember hearing this during my first two listens - admittedly, I put it on in the background while completing other work during those initial listens - but, well, there it is. Sara agrees with him and they go a bit more in-depth about it. For those interested, Connor's statement is at the 1 hour, 48 minutes, and around the 50-second mark. However, they start talking about this a few minutes before.

[WallStreeter]

I don’t think Jean was well cast, written, or directed in the X-Men films. Dark Phoenix just needed a bigger star than Sophie and certainly not a first time director.

At least the Fox X-Mem are gone. I wonder who will be the next Jean Grey. What actress will be chosen?

[Mercury]

I think I am too much of a Jean fan to be truly objective when it comes to her casting. Like, I would honestly want the impossible, lol. In either case, I've seen a lot of fans suggest Victoria Pedretti. She seems like she could be an interesting choice. She exudes a warmth I associate with Jean.

[Mosage]

Unpopular opinion, but I think Sadie Sink would be a great Jean Grey.
362bca53d54bf96db127c1e06be2a58c.jpg

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I really, really thought Sadie Sink was like 14 years old. Holy hell is time flying.