Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

I don't know what it means either. I'm multi-ethnic...

I don't consider myself white, but I enjoy the privilege of being perceived as white in most parts of the world, I suppose. Where I live, I'm definitely not seen as white though. So really: racial matters, for me, are really intriguing.

But that's not about my personal view. I'm just trying to understand. I'm not even American to fully understand how race matters there, though I do try to understand it.

As much as I try to be informed I realize I lack many tools to talk with mastery of the many issues tied to racial history of the U.S. so I’m just resolved to be against all kinds of discrimination, bigotry and racism, I’m a socialist (I’m very lucky this is not an insult were I come from) so I firmly believe that free universal healthcare and free universal education can go a long way in mending the gap between the various ethnic components of our modern societies.

[Wiccan]

What parts of her background (if any) do you think is essential for Jean? Born into a traditional, somewhat upper-middle class family, with one of the parents being a university teacher? Growing up on a wealthy small town? Being mostly sheltered from difficulties until the accident with her best friend?

I'm really thinking about that, specifically when we consider AUs... Then nothing of that seems to matter much, does it?

I don't think her family background is really that important tbh. I guess just being on a "normal" and happy family? Cause, as you say, the accident with Annie and her powers awakening is kind of a big "breaking the normalcy" moment. I think the core idea is that Jean's family loves and supports her, but can't really give her the help she needs as a mutant who has to deal with the discovery of her powers and learning how to live with them, which is where Xavier comes and becomes a father figure for her, and the X-Men her "second family".

[Devaishwarya]

Personally...I prefer the actors to look like their illustrated comic book versions, once they're depicting the 616 Universe. Unless it's an explicitly stated AU scenario...then you can do whatever you want. Making unnecessary "changes" to characters pulls me out of the story and makes me think I'm watching some AU version. (That was my main issue with the FoX-Men...the characters just didn't "feel" right and in some cases didn't look right)

That said...my hypocrisy and bias is on full display...with regards to Tilda Swinton being the Ancient One in Dr. Strange.
1: I absolutely adore Tildy in everything she does.
2: While she didn't look Asian and Ancient...she was still able to embody the essence of the character. Even knowing that she's a woman in a male role did not bother me at all because...there wasn't anything feminine about her portrayal. And she can play male and gender ambiguous roles amazingly well. Tildy is THAT good.

[Grinning Soul]

How much do you change a character and still call it the same character? They have already changed her personality, her taste in clothes and they still call her Jean Grey…

That's my problem with teen Jean, actually. And most likely with Krakoan Jean if it turns out there's nothing other than Onslaught's influence.

More since when being white is a bad thing that must be changed if possible?

It's not even a matter of being good or bad, right? Even if it was bad, would that be part of the character as well? I'm really wondering.

(Still reading the article you sent, Exodus)

[Grinning Soul]

Personally...I prefer the actors to look like their illustrated comic book versions, once they're depicting the 616 Universe. Unless it's an explicitly stated AU scenario...then you can do whatever you want. Making unnecessary "changes" to characters pulls me out of the story and makes me think I'm watching some AU version. (That was my main issue with the FoX-Men...the characters just didn't "feel" right and in some cases didn't look right)

That said...my hypocrisy and bias is on full display...with regards to Tilda Swinton being the Ancient One in Dr. Strange.
1: I absolutely adore Tildy in everything she does.
2: While she didn't look Asian and Ancient...she was still able to embody the essence of the character. Even knowing that she's a woman in a male role did not bother me at all because...there wasn't anything feminine about her portrayal. And she can play male and gender ambiguous roles amazingly well. Tildy is THAT good.

I agree. I like the characters to look as close as possible to their comic book versions. I liked Charlie Cox as Daredevil, but I really wish he was taller and redhead. And I know it's silly and purely emotional: I just want to easily, visually recognise them. It's really that simplistic.

That being said, I really try to understand other people's rationale and why it's so important to them.

And yes: Tilda is awesome! :)

[Mercury]

I think the only time Jean's race would matter is if they adapted the initial 66-issue run of the X-Men and set it in the 1960s, during which those stores were originally set. Even still, making her a woman of color - in fact, making the entire team people of color - during that time and setting could underscore the X-Men being, as Stan Lee admitted, "a good metaphor for what was happening with the Civil Rights Movement in the country at that time” [1]. Lee also insisted, “Those stories have room for everyone, regardless of their race, gender, religion, or color of their skin" [1].

Nevertheless, I understand fans who are very attached to a character preferring that the character be depicted as faithfully to their comic book counterparts as possible. Furthermore, I don't consider that desire to be consciously or unconsciously racially motivated, i.e., racist.

1. https://www.history.com/news/stan-le...ts-inspiration

[Grinning Soul]

Sorry, guys, I only saw your replies now. Let's get to it.

As much as I try to be informed I realize I lack many tools to talk with mastery of the many issues tied to racial history of the U.S. so I’m just resolved to be against all kinds of discrimination, bigotry and racism, I’m a socialist (I’m very lucky this is not an insult were I come from) so I firmly believe that free universal healthcare and free universal education can go a long way in mending the gap between the various ethnic components of our modern societies.

I'm against discrimination too. But I'm also very aware I carry lots of biases regarding pretty much every thing, really. And I try to be open-mind and accepting, so I really try to understand other people's perspectives, especially if they are very alien to me.

I don't know really know what it means to be white or black or anything... I don't really know what I am and I'm quite okay with that because I don't see the colour of my skin as part of my identity. I'm just... well, me.

But that doesn't mean it doesn't impact how people around me behaves. I know that, unfortunately, it does.

I don't think her family background is really that important tbh. I guess just being on a "normal" and happy family? Cause, as you say, the accident with Annie and her powers awakening is kind of a big "breaking the normalcy" moment. I think the core idea is that Jean's family loves and supports her, but can't really give her the help she needs as a mutant who has to deal with the discovery of her powers and learning how to live with them, which is where Xavier comes and becomes a father figure for her, and the X-Men her "second family".

Fair enough. Thank you. :)

--

I'll go read some more of the article Exodus shared.

[Mercury]

I've never read this encounter between Jean and the Phoenix Force before and thought it might be of interest to some of you. I won't post the pages but will link to the Tumblr page I found them on. I did some research and found out this story appeared in Marvel Comics Presents #15, not #13 like the Tumblr poster says. Nevertheless, this is the first time Jean created a pink phoenix using her own powers, separate and apart from the Phoenix Force. I believe they would use the pink phoenix in later issues of Uncanny X-Men and for teen Jean.

https://xmenlover73.tumblr.com/post/...is-the-phoenix

EDIT: Here is the link to the synopsis of the story and the issue it was found in:
https://uncannyxmen.net/comics/issue...-1st-series-15

[Grinning Soul]

There is no such thing as a positive white identity because the social construction of whiteness always relates to white supremacy and racism.

A little background maybe. Scholar Ruth Frankenberg defines whiteness as:

"a location of structural advantage, of race privilege. Second it is a 'standpoint,' a place from which white people look at ourselves, at others, and at society. Third, 'whiteness' refers to a set of cultural practices that are usually unmarked and unnamed."

In order to disrupt white dominated systems of power, whiteness has to become visible because it historically unmarked and made invisible as a unquestioned and often unacknowledged norm. White norms permeate white dominated society, yet these norms appear to be common and value-neutral to the social groups that benefit from them. Thus whiteness involves a culturally, socially, politically, and institutionally reproduced system of institutional power and individual practices that benefit white people while simultaneously marginalizing those who are framed as other (e.g. racialized as Black).

see:

https://oxfordre.com/education/view/...0190264093-e-5

Thanks again for sharing the link. I fount it very interesting, though I wished they had offered more practical advice on how to not "implicated in sustaining white supremacy". Anyway, I guess that's not relevant to the discussion right now.

I read everything and I think understood the points, but my question remains.

In order to try to make the discussion simpler for the moment, let's consider just this: "Researchers have demonstrated not only that privilege is bestowed, despite attempts by white people to denounce it, but also that privilege is deeply embedded in white ways of being."

So if being white has such an impact on someone's life because of the unescapable systemic racism and the privelege they enjoy, doesn't that mean that being white (or perceived as such) always matters to a character's background as much as it does to a person of colour?

What do you think?

[Rev9]

That's my problem with teen Jean, actually. And most likely with Krakoan Jean if it turns out there's nothing other than Onslaught's influence.



It's not even a matter of being good or bad, right? Even if it was bad, would that be part of the character as well? I'm really wondering.

(Still reading the article you sent, Exodus)

I certainly hope the 'It was all Onslaught' escape hatch is not used.If Hickman's era is all about empowerment and agency , then pulling onslaught to remove any culpability is cowardice of the highest order.If mutants cannot own their actions then Krakoa hype is hollow.

[Devaishwarya]

Thanks again for sharing the link. I fount it very interesting, though I wished they had offered more practical advice on how to not "implicated in sustaining white supremacy". Anyway, I guess that's not relevant to the discussion right now.

I read everything and I think understood the points, but my question remains.

In order to try to make the discussion simpler for the moment, let's consider just this: "Researchers have demonstrated not only that privilege is bestowed, despite attempts by white people to denounce it, but also that privilege is deeply embedded in white ways of being."

So if being white has such an impact on someone's life because of the unescapable systemic racism and the privelege they enjoy, doesn't that mean that being white (or perceived as such) always matters to a character's background as much as it does to a person of colour?

What do you think?

Racism and Abuse of Privilege is not ONLY perpetrated by White/Caucasian people.
Black people of wealth and power can look down on, disenfranchise, cast out and denigrate other Black people who they consider less. Light skinned Blacks have enjoyed much more privileges over our darker skinned brothers and sisters.
Right here in the Caribbean there is racism towards peoples of different nationalities and cultures.

It's just that in the USA...because of its history and media...the problems of Race and Privilege is ongoing, seems far more overt, prevalent. And centres around White vs Everybody Else.

[Mercury]

Racism and Abuse of Privilege is not ONLY perpetrated by White/Caucasian people.
Black people of wealth and power can look down on, disenfranchise, cast out and denigrate other Black people who they consider less. Light skinned Blacks have enjoyed much more privileges over our darker skinned brothers and sisters.
It's just that in the USA...because of its history...the problems of Race and Privilege is ongoing, seems far more overt, prevalent. And centres around White vs Everybody Else.
Right here in the Caribbean there is racism towards peoples of different nationalities and cultures.

This is very true, even in Latin and Hispanic cultures. Many light-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals look down upon darker-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals.

[Grinning Soul]

Racism and Abuse of Privilege is not ONLY perpetrated by White/Caucasian people.
Black people of wealth and power can look down on, disenfranchise, cast out and denigrate other Black people who they consider less. Light skinned Blacks have enjoyed much more privileges over our darker skinned brothers and sisters.
Right here in the Caribbean there is racism towards peoples of different nationalities and cultures.

It's just that in the USA...because of its history and media...the problems of Race and Privilege is ongoing, seems far more overt, prevalent. And centres around White vs Everybody Else.

Sure. But that was the context of the article that Exodus shared. It only dealt with white privilege and racism.

This is very true, even in Latin and Hispanic cultures. Many light-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals look down upon darker-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals.

I've seen people being racist against people of their own race regardless even of colourism. It's horrible. :(

[starduck]

I personally have no problem with Jean being raceswaped, but at the same time I dislike how some sites seem to imply that someone is racist for wanting to see the comic accurate version of a character. They can definitely be but not always.

This is very true, even in Latin and Hispanic cultures. Many light-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals look down upon darker-skinned Latin/Hispanic individuals.

Yeah, I live in a latin american country and I've seen this. I think it's a leftover of the colonial caste system

[Havok83]

Racism and Abuse of Privilege is not ONLY perpetrated by White/Caucasian people.
Black people of wealth and power can look down on, disenfranchise, cast out and denigrate other Black people who they consider less. Light skinned Blacks have enjoyed much more privileges over our darker skinned brothers and sisters.
Right here in the Caribbean there is racism towards peoples of different nationalities and cultures.

It's just that in the USA...because of its history and media...the problems of Race and Privilege is ongoing, seems far more overt, prevalent. And centres around White vs Everybody Else.

I wouldnt call that racism. Its more colorism