Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Tank]

That partron saint part annoys me. She’s not a saint and never will be.

[Mercury]

CBR's "lists" are laughable and should never ever be taken seriously. I love Storm but...I would never say she's "perfect".

Chiiile... let me breathe. The point is, she is being promoted and regarded positively. Frankly, that's all I care about.

I think Jean has a lot of nuances to her character: she can be loving but also give some tough love when it´s needed like in the case of Angel, she can be caring but also explain plainly how she feels about the situation like when she told Rachel she was not her actual Mom and sometimes even if it´s something that upsets the people she cares about, like that one time she confronted Charles over having Sabretooth in the house, her power gives her a great empathy but this doesn´t mean she will just give everybody a pass for acting wrongly or hurting others, her nuance is similar to Kurt or Ororo they are nuanced just not the kind that make them an anti-hero and I believe this may be playing agaisnt them during this era in comics because lately it seems anti-hero is the name of the game for a lot of popular characters so for those characters that are nuanced but are not anti-heros, they are seen as flat or boring when they are just human. I may be wrong but this is the impression I have for this era.

I agree with all of this. It's been evidenced time and again, since the very first issue of X-Men, in fact, that Jean is extremely assertive when she feels the need to be. She has put several people in their places not just verbally, but physically too. This is one of the aspects of her character I relate to most. However, as you point out, her assertiveness has never really veered into anti-heroism; she's just never really been written that way, though her confrontation with Sabretooth teetered on that edge.

I actually like this about her. I don't need to see her being cunty, elitist, seducing husbands, or showing three-fourths of her **** to compel me. In fact, it's that fine line she can balance, between being utterly saintly and downright dark, that fascinates me so about her. Like Percy pointed out, Jean is "as versatile as a cello, able to play melody or harmony, to swing between the brightest and darkest notes."

In Jean´s case this is harder because after staying dead for 15 years even writers started to believe she was either a phoenix goodness or "too saintly" for the stories they were telling so her characterization sometimes goes too into one side or the other, or they tell stories about her romance with Scott or Logan but I think we have yet to see her as the three dimensional character she was before her death. X-men Red was a good beggining but I felt something was still missing in her characterization.

I think she started to show some of her more ambiguous traits under Percy, during her time in X-Force. Some people question her motives and whether it was characteristic of her to do and witness all that she did and witnessed on that team. Personally, I liked her run on X-Force, though I feel her exit could have been handled better. Nonetheless, she displayed her characteristic assertiveness and several shades of grey as part of that team.

I also hate the idea some fans have that she´s always dying just because she said that once, she only died officially once, at most twice, there are a lot of marvel characters who have died a lot other times but it´s just her who is seen like she´s always dying and that´s not true.

To be honest, I don't even know how many times she's died, but I am under the impression she has more than once or twice. ScreenRant published an article in 2019 in which they stated she died and was resurrected 15 times (source: https://screenrant.com/xmen-marvel-k...-death-comics/), though, from my count, they only recap eight of those deaths. In either case, her death, which is what it initially was, at the close of the Dark Phoenix Saga was so impactful to so many, it stuck. I would say her second death under Grant Morrison was also impactful, lasting several more years, which made people's association between her and death stick even more. Morrison shared how hard her first "death" hit him in an interview:

[DC's Crisis] seemed like the most important event of all time (unless you'd been there for the death of Jean Grey, which fucked with me more. Sleek and romantic and 21 by this time, I wept silent tears as Scott and Jean held hands and ran out to face certain death on the moon. Lying on a park bench beside Hyde Park in the sun at 8 a.m., I penned a tear-stained paean to mutantism. Me in Chelsea boots, drainpipe trousers, fluffy moptop, with The Winds of Chaos, my first novel, in a folder in my attache case.

'Dear Chris,

I cried for Jean Grey ...'

It was the most embarrassing piece of prose I've ever created and was fortunately trashed stillborn. I keep going back to it now, though, talking about it. I think I wish I had sent it).

source: http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/aug02/gmorrison2.shtml

That partron saint part annoys me. SheÂ’s not a saint and never will be.

She's a saint to me, goddammit, and I do and will continue to pray to her every night!

(lol, I'm just teasing. Sort of...)

[Conor]

That partron saint part annoys me. She’s not a saint and never will be.

As a fan, I understand this. She should never be presented as a saint or “Mary Sue” type character. I like it when she loses her temper and has moments of brashness. For example, when she was brought back in the mid 80s and had a telekinetic tantrum when finding out Scott and Angel had worked alongside Magneto, I wish her fiery nature was showcased more in modern comics. Taylor’s Jean was fantastic but the only issue I had with her was that she was presented as being a little too perfect at times.

[xhx23x]

As a fan, I understand this. She should never be presented as a saint or “Mary Sue” type character. I like it when she loses her temper and has moments of brashness. For example, when she was brought back in the mid 80s and had a telekinetic tantrum when finding out Scott and Angel had worked alongside Magneto, I wish her fiery nature was showcased more in modern comics. Taylor’s Jean was fantastic but the only issue I had with her was that she was presented as being a little too perfect at times.

I agree with this a lot. I liked Red, but it was almost like Taylor was afraid to show Jean making a mistake of some kind. I think current Jean benifited a lot from Teen Jean's stay in the present because as a younger version she was allowed to be messy, and rash and do things that perplexed us sometimes (Like, the Beast fling). I like how her outing Bobby led to him confronting her as an adult later and things like that.

[Grinning Soul]

I think Jean has a lot of nuances to her character: she can be loving but also give some tough love when it´s needed like in the case of Angel, she can be caring but also explain plainly how she feels about the situation like when she told Rachel she was not her actual Mom and sometimes even if it´s something that upsets the people she cares about, like that one time she confronted Charles over having Sabretooth in the house, her power gives her a great empathy but this doesn´t mean she will just give everybody a pass for acting wrongly or hurting others, her nuance is similar to Kurt or Ororo they are nuanced just not the kind that make them an anti-hero and I believe this may be playing agaisnt them during this era in comics because lately it seems anti-hero is the name of the game for a lot of popular characters so for those characters that are nuanced but are not anti-heros, they are seen as flat or boring when they are just human. I may be wrong but this is the impression I have for this era.

In Jean´s case this is harder because after staying dead for 15 years even writers started to believe she was either a phoenix goodness or "too saintly" for the stories they were telling so her characterization sometimes goes too into one side or the other, or they tell stories about her romance with Scott or Logan but I think we have yet to see her as the three dimensional character she was before her death. X-men Red was a good beggining but I felt something was still missing in her characterization.

I also hate the idea some fans have that she´s always dying just because she said that once, she only died officially once, at most twice, there are a lot of marvel characters who have died a lot other times but it´s just her who is seen like she´s always dying and that´s not true.

I liked X-Men: Red too. It was far from perfect and her characterization wasn't perfect either but, in my opinion, the good things outweighed the bad.

I love the way Louise Simonson wrote Jean in X-Factor, but I wouldn't want to see the very same characterization nowadays. Jean was going through a lot at the time and, even with Marvel's sliding timescale, she spent 12 years in the future, so she should be considerably more mature now.

That doesn't mean that temper would completely disappear, of course. I love her fiery temper. But it should be a bit more tempered (no pun intended) with a certain self-awareness and self-control most of us learn as we age. You know what I mean? :)

[Lucyinthesky]

I agree with all of this. It's been evidenced time and again, since the very first issue of X-Men, in fact, that Jean is extremely assertive when she feels the need to be. She has put several people in their places not just verbally, but physically too. This is one of the aspects of her character I relate to most. However, as you point out, her assertiveness has never really veered into anti-heroism; she's just never really been written that way, though her confrontation with Sabretooth teetered on that edge.

Yes and she doesn´t need to be an anti-hero to be assertive and sure of herself, I didn´t saw her that way not even with Sabretooth because I saw it as her way of making sure they could handle him if he got out of control because she was worried of him hurting some of the X-men, which he finally did so maybe charles should have listened to her that they needed to send him to a more guarded place.

I actually like this about her. I don't need to see her being cunty, elitist, seducing husbands, or showing three-fourths of her **** to compel me. In fact, it's that fine line she can balance, between being utterly saintly and downright dark, that fascinates me so about her. Like Percy pointed out, Jean is "as versatile as a cello, able to play melody or harmony, to swing between the brightest and darkest notes."

Lol ok we will not talk about Emma

I loved that description for her, I also think he did a good work when she brought back the proffesor but I don´t think all his characterization matches this description, if that was the case I expected her to be a lot more proactive and assertive in the case of Beast actions and also bring the issue to Logan, Scott, the Quiet Council etc, who knows maybe he will do so at some point but it´s harder now that she´s with the X-men team.

I think she started to show some of her more ambiguous traits under Percy, during her time in X-Force. Some people question her motives and whether it was characteristic of her to do and witness all that she did and witnessed on that team. Personally, I liked her run on X-Force, though I feel her exit could have been handled better. Nonetheless, she displayed her characteristic assertiveness and several shades of grey as part of that team.

Agreed

]To be honest, I don't even know how many times she's died, but I am under the impression she has more than once or twice. ScreenRant published an article in 2019 in which they stated she died and was resurrected 15 times (source: https://screenrant.com/xmen-marvel-k...-death-comics/), though, from my count, they only recap eight of those deaths. In either case, her death, which is what it initially was, at the close of the Dark Phoenix Saga was so impactful to so many, it stuck. I would say her second death under Grant Morrison was also impactful, lasting several more years, which made people's association between her and death stick even more. Morrison shared how hard her first "death" hit him in an interview:


source: http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/aug02/gmorrison2.shtml

Thanks for the link I will look into it, my point is mostly that fans and writers seem to think Jean dying a lot is a point agaist her and her relationship to Scott because that´s what she said which I don´t think is actually true.

I liked X-Men: Red too. It was far from perfect and her characterization wasn't perfect either but, in my opinion, the good things outweighed the bad.

I love the way Louise Simonson wrote Jean in X-Factor, but I wouldn't want to see the very same characterization nowadays. Jean was going through a lot at the time and, even with Marvel's sliding timescale, she spent 12 years in the future, so she should be considerably more mature now.
That doesn't mean that temper would completely disappear, of course. I love her fiery temper. But it should be a bit more tempered (no pun intended) with a certain self-awareness and self-control most of us learn as we age. You know what I mean?

Agreed I think she´s a mature woman now as her interaction with Rachel during her wedding, her interaction with Logan and Emma show my point is that just because she´s mature this doesn´t mean she doesn´t have nuances to her and the way she reacts to the world around her, I just think we could see her more active and assertive that she´s been shown so far

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed I think she´s a mature woman now as her interaction with Rachel during her wedding, her interaction with Logan and Emma show my point is that just because she´s mature this doesn´t mean she doesn´t have nuances to her and the way she reacts to the world around her, I just think we could see her more active and assertive that she´s been shown so far

I totally agree. Jean is both complex and nuanced and it's why it's so hard to write her.

I haven't seen much nuance in Duggan's portrayal either, but it's really too soon to judge. It's a team book, she's not the sole focus and it's difficult to balance her many seemingly contradictory characteristics, so I'll give him another 6-8 books (depending on how the story goes), before I can form a better opinion.

[Mercury]

…I expected her to be a lot more proactive and assertive in the case of Beast actions and also bring the issue to Logan, Scott, the Quiet Council etc

I think her lack of response had more to do with time constraints and sticking strictly to a pre-structured plot. That’s not to say that the writers didn’t drop the ball by not having her make more of an issue about what she witnessed, but, to be fair, she did assert herself and make her thoughts and opinions clear.

By the way, good point regarding her face off with Sabretooth.

I totally agree. Jean is both complex and nuanced and it's why it's so hard to write her.

I haven't seen much nuance in Duggan's portrayal either, but it's really too soon to judge. It's a team book, she's not the sole focus and it's difficult to balance her many seemingly contradictory characteristics, so I'll give him another 6-8 books (depending on how the story goes), before I can form a better opinion.

I think Duggan has handled her quite well, particularly in Cable, though I also love what he wrote for her in Planet Size X-Men and X-Men. I love these moments he wrote for her in Cable, though, which were a bit more nuanced and show he isn’t averse to spotlighting her power, creativity, assertiveness, leadership qualities, and empathy without sacrificing one for the other:







I’ll post a few more moments written by Duggan that I love in my next post.





This is panel is from X-Men #1 and though it’s a blink-and-you miss moment, it speaks volumes about her character.



These are small moments, but they brim with nuance, especially in regards to striking just the right balance between her empathy, assertiveness, toughness, and maturity.

[Spiderfan001]

I agree with this a lot. I liked Red, but it was almost like Taylor was afraid to show Jean making a mistake of some kind. I think current Jean benifited a lot from Teen Jean's stay in the present because as a younger version she was allowed to be messy, and rash and do things that perplexed us sometimes (Like, the Beast fling). I like how her outing Bobby led to him confronting her as an adult later and things like that.

All this.Red was playing her like a perfect person when she's not.No one is.

[Frobisher]

All this.Red was playing her like a perfect person when she's not.No one is.

David Bowie was.

[Mercury]

David Bowie was.

So is Jean Grey. She is practically and potently perfect in every way; sublime, transcendent, resplendent, and utterly luminescent!

[Grinning Soul]

David Bowie was.

"Battle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise." :)

[Mercury]

Attachment 103954

Just got a nice good laugh out of this. "Weakest X-men" lol

Chiiile... The one thing that Claremont wrote that I actually hate and that is factually untrue.

[PwrdOn]

I agree with this a lot. I liked Red, but it was almost like Taylor was afraid to show Jean making a mistake of some kind. I think current Jean benifited a lot from Teen Jean's stay in the present because as a younger version she was allowed to be messy, and rash and do things that perplexed us sometimes (Like, the Beast fling). I like how her outing Bobby led to him confronting her as an adult later and things like that.

The thing is though, whenever Jean does anything wrong it gets magnified to almost be a character defining trait, such as how she treated Maddie or Rachel, or more recently the Iceman thing, and it ends up weighing her down a lot more than it really helps to develop her character. Too often the notion of a "flawed" character ends up just turning into some violent psychopath who gets to all sorts of immoral but cool stuff without any fear of consequence, yet somehow remains a hero purely through writer fiat, think Wolverine or Cyclops at their worst. Jean should always be portrayed as someone who is a fundamentally good person and tries her best to live up to this lofty ideal, she is going to overstep her boundaries from time to time, but having her do flat out evil **** out of the blue isn't the best way to make her flawed. The real problem with "perfect" characters is that they tend to turn into an author mouthpiece prone to lecturing others, which can be particularly egregious if the author's idea of right and wrong tends to conflict with the audience's, and Jean doesn't really slip into that mode too often.

[andreikes]

iconic

by: @eIeven
Savannah Smith

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