Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Omega_DCD]

I wish I could be excited for Inferno in regards to Jean but I really doubt she'll factor much if at all. Hickman's use of Jean has been tepid if not outright insulting (HOX #4...and his arbitrary "dominant power" designation which only affected Jean and Exodus...but he's no where near Jean in terms of importance and she's the longest known Omega level mutant along with Iceman...so it's even more of a slight for her...and she's the only one with such a retro choice of outfit)

[Mercury]

Jean always needs some volatility, fire and a little stubbornness. All the greatest and most entertaining versions of Jean have had it; from Claremont to Morrison, even Bendis and various other writers like Seagle and Kelly that have used her over the years. ItÂ’s what missing from current Jean; sheÂ’s just so passive and bland save for a couple moments under Percy and Cates.

Though I agreed with it for a hot minute, I now vehemently disagree with the notion that she is currently "passive and bland." On the contrary, she still displays her characteristic assertiveness and has accomplished some amazing feats this era. Additionally, there is a current stillness and understated quality about her that I find increasingly intriguing and appealing. Hickman and Duggan have each given her standout moments that spotlight and lean into her sage wisdom, experience, and leadership qualities, while Percy has shown that her fire hasn't been quenched and proven that she can still "go there" if need be.

Moreover, I truly believe that her biggest shifts and developments have been planned and are forthcoming. As I've shared before, I think Hickman has decided to take his time and is being measured and extremely calculated in the rollout of his plans for her. Though some may accuse me of wishful thinking, I truly don't believe Jean using her former costume and codename is incidental or due to a lack of interest or creativity. Hickman knows what he is doing; it's just that we don't know yet.

In either case, after the delicious literal and figurative volatility of her arcs and journeys throughout the last 5-10 years, I am happy with and more than willing to follow her current journey, wherever it may lead. Jean is versatile and currently playing harmony with the brightest notes to paraphrase Percy's perfect description of her. However, I don't doubt that they have an intricate melody or two in the pipeline for her, requiring her to "swing between the brightest and darkness notes," which she will undoubtedly do with ease and aplomb.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

They have already stated the reason for the costume. They don't want her to have Phoenix, don't like X-Men Red nor the costume from it, and aren't interested in designing a new one for her.

[Celestialbodies]

I've mentioned this before, but I especially love that because she made good on the threat she made to the U-Men when she was first tapping into the Phoenix during that run...and now completely sans Phoenix

I love that Ayala, references this issue in the recent COTA interaction with the U-men. Something that rarely happens with her, so I appreciate the small things.

They have already stated the reason for the costume. They don't want her to have Phoenix, don't like X-Men Red nor the costume from it, and aren't interested in designing a new one for her.

Hickman, Duggan, nor Marvel has given a good reason why Jean can't consistently where an assortment of her former costumes. Sure, it's like beating a dead horse at this point but she has much better costumes than the current one, XMR included.





Speaking of Inferno, I don't expect Jean to be involved much at all, Hickman has not be invested in the character. Nor has he laid any groundwork towards plans for her in the ways he has for others. Thankfully under Duggan she seems to be used and to decent effect.

[Spiderfan001]

It is implied. After Quentin Quire breaks their necks, Hank tells Jean "Hold back a moment, Jean. Do you remember what Sage said? Leave behind no witnesses. The telefloronics are as capable of healing themselves as they are of hurting you." The last sentence is laid over a panel of the telefloronics Quire took out doing just that: healing themselves. At that point, after Jean expresses to Hank her hesitancy - "Whatever happened to kill no human?" - she disintegrates them because that is the only way they will not be able to heal/regenerate.

To disintegrate means the same as to atomize, i.e., to reduce to atoms or fine particles.

Disintegration works on many levels.
From sub-atomic to atomic scales to much larger ones.
Anyways this is a moot point since we already have seen her do this on the smaller scales.

[Spiderfan001]

Jean always needs some volatility, fire and a little stubbornness. All the greatest and most entertaining versions of Jean have had it; from Claremont to Morrison, even Bendis and various other writers like Seagle and Kelly that have used her over the years. It’s what missing from current Jean; she’s just so passive and bland save for a couple moments under Percy and Cates.

Agreed.
She way too passive rn

[Spiderfan001]

Though I agreed with it for a hot minute, I now vehemently disagree with the notion that she is currently "passive and bland." On the contrary, she still displays her characteristic assertiveness and has accomplished some amazing feats this era. Additionally, there is a current stillness and understated quality about her that I find increasingly intriguing and appealing. Hickman and Duggan have each given her standout moments that spotlight and lean into her sage wisdom, experience, and leadership qualities, while Percy has shown that her fire hasn't been quenched and proven that she can still "go there" if need be.

Moreover, I truly believe that her biggest shifts and developments have been planned and are forthcoming. As I've shared before, I think Hickman has decided to take his time and is being measured and extremely calculated in the rollout of his plans for her. Though some may accuse me of wishful thinking, I truly don't believe Jean using her former costume and codename is incidental or due to a lack of interest or creativity. Hickman knows what he is doing; it's just that we don't know yet.

In either case, after the delicious literal and figurative volatility of her arcs and journeys throughout the last 5-10 years, I am happy with and more than willing to follow her current journey, wherever it may lead. Jean is versatile and currently playing harmony with the brightest notes to paraphrase Percy's perfect description of her. However, I don't doubt that they have an intricate melody or two in the pipeline for her, requiring her to "swing between the brightest and darkness notes," which she will undoubtedly do with ease and aplomb.

One thing we know is that Hickman has his own story and then things to be addressed in this era.
1)His own story doesn't involve Jean and I doubt it will.This is the Hox/Pox inferno stuff.
2)The other things like Wanda,etc. were somethings he decided will play a part but how and when was decided by other writers(which is a damn shame).Stuff like the gala wasn't his idea IIRC.If Jean gets an arc it will be here, not in Hickman's Story(The most important one) and not written by him.

[Mercury]

They have already stated the reason for the costume. They don't want her to have Phoenix, don't like X-Men Red nor the costume from it, and aren't interested in designing a new one for her.

I have not read anything in which Hickman or any of the other creators at Marvel explicitly state that "they don't want [Jean] to have Phoenix," though one can certainly infer that this is the case. However, Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force is so long - fundamental to its existence, really - and has been so varied, I would caution anyone against making such definitive statements. Furthermore, I have not read anything in which it is stated that the creators "don't like X-Men: Red." Moreover, the only comment I have come across regarding "the reason for the costume" is a vague (cryptic?) answer Hickman gave when asked why Jean started wearing the green dress again and whether she would get a new costume or don any of her older ones:

Hickman: I’m not going to lie, this one has been disappointing. I was pretty sure everyone would figure this out as soon as House of X #1 hit the stands. And while I’m not going to spoil the story for you, I will say go back and look at the most famous time she put this costume back on. That should help.

And to answer the other part of your question directly, Dauterman is actually doing some Jean stuff now, and she’s wearing a version of one of her newer suits (but colored green and gold, as all Jean costumes should be).

(source: https://aiptcomics.com/2019/10/14/x-...f-x-questions/)

Of course, one could infer from this quote that Hickman is implying that Jean's decision to wear her old costume is as a way to distinguish herself separate and apart from the Phoenix Force. One can also infer that she will soon again be dying. One can infer a lot, actually. Additionally, as per the quote above, Hickman was fine with Jean using a slightly altered version of her X-Men: Red costume - apparently, he's adamant about her wearing green and gold - so it doesn't seem like he actively dislikes Mahmud Asrar's design.

Hickman, Duggan, nor Marvel has given a good reason why Jean can't consistently where an assortment of her former costumes. Sure, it's like beating a dead horse at this point but she has much better costumes than the current one, XMR included.

While I appreciate your insistence that the powers that be could put her in a better costume - I find it endearing, actually - it seems that Hickman has given explicit orders that, for now, Jean is to use the green dress mostly. His reason? The one quoted above, which is ambiguous but also does not state or imply that she will be wearing this costume permanently. Quite frankly, it doesn't even explicitly state exactly why she is wearing the costume. Moreover, he has, on occasion, permitted that she be illustrated in some of her older costumes, i.e., as noted, her X-Men: Red costume, but also her Jim Lee and X-Factor costumes.

Speaking of Inferno, I don't expect Jean to be involved much at all, Hickman has not be invested in the character. Nor has he laid any groundwork towards plans for her in the ways he has for others. Thankfully under Duggan she seems to be used and to decent effect.

This is a fair and understandable position to take.

However, Hickman's investment in Jean - what we're privy to seeing of it, that is - while not necessarily broad, has been noticeable. Firstly, he started her off as a member of the Quiet Council. He also chose to put her in a costume that carries a great deal of symbolism for her, the fanbase, and apparently him, and has remained cryptic - I believe intentionally so - as to why, though he has hinted at arguably the X-Men's most famous storyline being a clue. ("Free thighs for a free people," notwithstanding, of course.) Additionally, he put her front and center, along with Emma Frost, in Giant-Size X-Men and pretty much made Jean the star in terms of power display, having her save Emma, one of his favorite characters, before making her instrumental in rescuing Storm, while also underscoring their decades-long bond.

Furthermore, he has written some interesting dialogue and moments for her. I quite liked her speeches about Queen Broods and regarding her unique way of telepathically probing. Most notably, he also put Jean front and center where it counted in X-Men #16, effectively utilizing her characteristic assertiveness to twice decline Erik's and Xavier's offer to rejoin the Quiet Council and to explicitly state the reasons why she and Scott were forming the new team, of which he also made her co-leader, all while Scott was standing next to her. Hickman could have just as easily had Scott decline the offer and give the speech about the new team, but he didn't. Lastly, before his run began, when asked to define Jean in one word in his reboot, he answered:

Hickman: Prominent.

(source: https://aiptcomics.com/2019/06/10/x-...-15-jean-grey/)

All of the above, including his insistence on her costume colors, leads me to believe that Hickman doesn't just consider Jean irrelevant but has actually given much thought to her, what drives her, and how she operates. Most telling is how he distinguished her from other telepaths:

Jonathan: Oh, I have a theory about telepaths. I think, because of all the minds they’re open to when their powers are emerging, that early on they tend to either become very closed off and cold (see: Xavier, Emma, Monet), or either overly open and very emotional (see: Jean).

It’s really defined by how protective of yourself you are, or how you're willing to sacrifice that because you think other things (and other people) matter more than yourself. Some people read being emotional, vulnerable, and open as a weakness. Other people understand it’s a different kind of strength.

(source: https://aiptcomics.com/2020/02/17/x-...men-questions/

To be clear, Celestialbodies, I don't think you are wrong at all for having no expectations regarding whether Jean will have a major role in Inferno. Still, I also wouldn't completely rule out the possibility. I would also maybe reevaluate what Hickman has said about and actually written for Jean.

Disintegration works on many levels.
From sub-atomic to atomic scales to much larger ones.
Anyways this is a moot point since we already have seen her do this on the smaller scales.

You're right; it is a moot point. Instead, the central question should be: What would it take, telekinetically speaking, to prevent the telefloronics from regenerating?

One thing we know is that Hickman has his own story and then things to be addressed in this era.
1)His own story doesn't involve Jean and I doubt it will.This is the Hox/Pox inferno stuff.
2)The other things like Wanda,etc. were somethings he decided will play a part but how and when was decided by other writers(which is a damn shame).Stuff like the gala wasn't his idea IIRC.If Jean gets an arc it will be here, not in Hickman's Story(The most important one) and not written by him.

1. Hickman's story "doesn't involve Jean" as far as we know. However, as are Celestialbodies' low expectations, your doubt is fair and reasonable, too.
2. Quite frankly, I don't think you nor any of us are in any position to decide which story is "[t]he most important one" or to declare whether Jean will play a role, pivotal or otherwise, in it.

___

For the record, I want to state that I am obviously a big fan of Jean, and what I offer here, aside from quotes and sources, are my thoughts and opinions, which tend to lean toward the optimistic and inquisitive. I don't claim to know any more or better than any of you what direction Jean will take in the foreseeable future. I do have hope for her development and know that she is loved by many, both within and outside of the comic book industry, but outside of that, I don't like making definitive statements based on conjecture. Additionally, I am unwilling to form opinions about creators and their intentions based solely on whether they have satisfied my whims and desires within a timeframe I am comfortable with. I understand, especially when it comes to a writer like Hickman, that the best payoffs don't come early and that more often than not what seems obvious can be quite misleading. That is all.

[Spiderfan001]

Just about my bits with Mercury[I don't want to quote such a large post].

1)I think telefloronics won't regenerate from TK destruction at the large scale.I don't think molecular destruction is required.

2)We have seen futures and plot threads and they don't even remotely involve her(Emma is much more involved).It's cool, his story is amazing and he should use who he feels like.
Also phoenix which could have been a major Jean story and something Hickman would have liked to tackle in now Avengers property for the immediate future.

3)There is though, HOX POX is the main story and Inferno is the follow up.They said so in the promos as well.That is the story of Krakoa, all other stuff will lend small bits to it.For e.x. New mutants gabby or Karma stories aren't likely to affect the main story in a major way.Same for the others.

Hickman said himself that he has a story to tell that he will do himself(HOX/POX and inferno).There are other ideas which he and the team came up with and they write(Hickman's X-men had ideas from other writers.A blatant example is the hellfire gala issue.That was not his idea).Hickman's X-men book wasn't a part of the main story for the most part(issues with stuff do with Nimrod ,Mystique,Moira and Destiny).

Hickman has confirmed this.
1)In promo's he stated that HOX/POX will be followed up in Inferno.X-men wasn't the follow up.
2)He said his main story is divided in a specific number of parts[can't remember the number, was 2-4] but one era can be extended depending on feedback.I think that is gonna happen because of positive feedback in sales,etc.
Which is personally annoying as heck, we should have gotten this follow up 6 months after HOX/POX.They will milk Krakoa for way longer than they should instead of giving Hickman's story decent pacing.

[Mercury]

1) She disintegrated the telefloronics. It is in the panels below, which show them in the process of what looks like vaporization. “Large-scale destruction” is what Quentin Quire attempted, i.e., breaking their necks, and it didn’t work; they regenerated.



2) She’s headlining the flagship title as a co-leader; that’s a pretty big plot thread. Furthermore, whether she has been or is currently involved in other plot threads doesn’t definitively determine the role she may or will play in said threads. The fact of the matter - and really the only thing I am trying to point out - is that we simply don’t know. Finally, circling back to her pivotal and central role in X-Men, I think it’s safe to assume she will be woven into many upcoming threads. However, as I stated, that is an assumption, as is what you are claiming.

Additionally, I am not arguing that the Phoenix Force is not a central plot point in the Avengers current run; it certainly is - for the immediate future, as you noted.

3) Hickman also defined Jean as “prominent” in his story, i.e., HoX/PoX and, I’m assuming, the aftermath. Again, we don’t know what his plans are for her and can’t assume what they are based on how little or infrequently he’s chosen to use her thus far. That is conjecture. I am not claiming that he does, but he may very well have the bulk of her “prominent” role set to emerge during the denouement of his story. Again, we don’t know. And just to be clear, I’m indifferent to whether he does or does not include her in his particular thread(s). Of course, I’ve taken note of the fact that he’s referred to her role in his story as “prominent,” but I’m content and more focused on her being co-leader of the new X-Men.

[Spiderfan001]

1) She disintegrated the telefloronics. It is in the panels below, which show them in the process of what looks like vaporization. “Large-scale destruction” is what Quentin Quire attempted, i.e., breaking their necks, and it didn’t work; they regenerated.



2) She’s headlining the flagship title as a co-leader; that’s a pretty big plot thread. Furthermore, whether she has been or is currently involved in other plot threads doesn’t definitively determine the role she may or will play in said threads. The fact of the matter - and really the only thing I am trying to point out - is that we simply don’t know. Finally, circling back to her pivotal and central role in X-Men, I think it’s safe to assume she will be woven into many upcoming threads. However, as I stated, that is an assumption, as is what you are claiming.

Additionally, I am not arguing that the Phoenix Force is not a central plot point in the Avengers current run; it certainly is - for the immediate future, as you noted.

3) Hickman also defined Jean as “prominent” in his story, i.e., HoX/PoX and, I’m assuming, the aftermath. Again, we don’t know what his plans are for her and can’t assume what they are based on how little or infrequently he’s chosen to use her thus far. That is conjecture. I am not claiming that he does, but he may very well have the bulk of her “prominent” role set to emerge during the denouement of his story. Again, we don’t know. And just to be clear, I’m indifferent to whether he does or does not include her in his particular thread(s). Of course, I’ve taken note of the fact that he’s referred to her role in his story as “prominent,” but I’m content and more focused on her being co-leader of the new X-Men.

1)There is a massive difference between breaking necks and molecular disintegration.Not saying that's not possible but there is a massive gap between the 2.

2)The flagship is not the main story.I said Jean has no major role to play in the Hickman main story.Of course she has one in the entire era and the "X-men".
And the entire point of HOX/POX was to plant seeds for the future and also give us a glimpse at said future.Jean has no role in that as of right now and chances are she won't.

3)Hickman and others have said a lot of stuff that has proven misleading.many writers do.Heck this Jean thing is misleading, she may have a small role or a cool moment but she's not a player.
Yes we can.The way the story is structured we are seeing more and more of the major players and even minor players like Emma and Sinsiter. Jean is non-existent to this story so far.They won't just give Jean a major role out of nowhere.That's not how this run is working nor how Hickman writes.
Charles, Mystique, Magneto, Moira, Destiny and Nimrod are the major ones.Emma and Sinister has a role to play.I'm missing a couple and there are the future characters but Jean isn't connected to this.
And Wolverine is also prominent.But has no major role aside from the one future.

And Echo is getting a mini and I doubt they will take Phoenix away from her anytime soon.

[Grinning Soul]

I don't think that Jean atomised the plant-people in X-Force#6. I don't think she needed to. There has to a be point where the parts are small enough not to be able to regenerate themselves again.

Moreover, I don't think she *currently* has the sensitivity to be able to do it. We know from X-Men: Red that she can move stuff she can't feel, but she needed Trinary's help to be able to feel the nanite. [EDIT: Meaning that - up to the nanite scale - size is not the limitation for her tk, but sensitivity], So she certainly can't feel stuff smaller than a certain size to be able to keep breaking it apart.

Therefore, it's since it's not said anywhere she actually atomized those creatures, I think it's safer to assume - considering what has been shown as her limits so far - that she didn't. But for us to be sure anyway, we'd have to ask Percy.

[Mercury]

First definition of atomize per Oxford:

convert (a substance) into very fine particles or droplets.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/atomize

First definition of disintegrate per Oxford:

1Break up into small parts, typically as the result of impact or decay.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/disintegrate

[Daedra]

I don't think that Jean atomised the plant-people in X-Force#6. I don't think she needed to. There has to a be point where the parts are small enough not to be able to regenerate themselves again.

Moreover, I don't think she *currently* has the sensitivity to be able to do it. We know from X-Men: Red that she can move stuff she can't feel, but she needed Trinary's help to be able to feel the nanite. So she certainly can't feel stuff smaller than a certain size to be able to keep breaking it apart.

Therefore, it's since it's not said anywhere she actually atomized those creatures, I think it's safer to assume - considering what has been shown as her limits so far - that she didn't. But for us to be sure anyway, we'd have to ask Percy.

She needed trinary technopathy to sense and locate the nanite but once she found it her tk was able to operate on the nanite level, regarding x-force her tp was more then enough to pinpoint the plant people sentience and proceed to dismantle the telefloronic via tk until any trace of their conscience was gone and they could be considered dead.

[Daedra]

First definition of atomize per Oxford:



https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/atomize

First definition of disintegrate per Oxford:



https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/disintegrate

Thank you, very much