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  1. #5926
    Spectacular Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Anything that makes Jean more capable, powerful, outstanding or independent. the office is vehemently against. Meanwhile the boring shipping that actually worsens her character is her main purpose.

    You'd think with Phoenix being intentionally misconstrued as Jean's persecutor, she could have her psychic form as a change and replacement, but no. It's too cool for the type of character they want Jean to be.
    Disagree with the first part, but okay.

    Edit: Sorry, nvm. Misunderstood the second paragraph. I’m tired.

    I don’t blame X-office for that, but moreso the common misconstruing of the Phoenix…..and Aaron.
    Last edited by PyroFN; 07-24-2021 at 10:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Anything that makes Jean more capable, powerful, outstanding or independent. the office is vehemently against. Meanwhile the boring shipping that actually worsens her character is her main purpose.
    Quite frankly, this is your opinion, not a fact. I am not saying that you do this, but I don't see how fans that insult and mischaracterize the creators and those in charge in a mean-spirited way on Twitter and other platforms think that they are helping Jean in any way. If anything, that is what has the potential to hurt her and future developments of her character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    You'd think with Phoenix being intentionally misconstrued as Jean's persecutor, she could have her psychic form as a change and replacement, but no. It's too cool for the type of character they want Jean to be.
    How do you know what they have planned for Jean? What if a slow rollout of her development is precisely what they want to avoid overexposure, considering the fact that, before Hickman came on board, she was front and center on several titles, including All-New X-Men, X-Men: Red, and Jean Grey, not to mention her other prominent appearances? A lot of writers, in film, television, books, and comic books, don't reveal right away who their prominent or pivotal characters will be. Ever heard of a red herring?

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    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Quite frankly, this is your opinion, not a fact. I am not saying that you do this, but I don't see how fans that insult and mischaracterize the creators and those in charge in a mean-spirited way on Twitter and other platforms think that they are helping Jean in any way. If anything, that is what has the potential to hurt her and future developments of her character.



    How do you know what they have planned for Jean? What if a slow rollout of her development is precisely what they want to avoid overexposure, considering the fact that, before Hickman came on board, she was front and center on several titles, including All-New X-Men, X-Men: Red, and Jean Grey, not to mention her other prominent appearances? A lot of writers, in film, television, books, and comic books, don't reveal right away who their prominent or pivotal characters will be. Ever heard of a red herring?
    I don't think writers care what fans say. They create stories using a combination of the characters they want and those mandated by editors. Even if they did decide to say "f this character just because Twitter"...I'm not in charge of Twitter lol. Really though, I think it comes down mostly to the creators feeling the way they personally feel about the characters. I don't buy fans being an influence beyond them knowing that Wolverine can push a solo title.

    As far as plans for Jean, I don't know anything but I have learned how stories work. Typically, slowly developing plots involves seeding things related to that plot for use later.

    About X-Men Red, Blue, Jean Grey: just like the Morrison era, none of those books are reference points for the current version of the character. Those stories are things "she used to do". They are for all practical intents and purposes, not canon. That's especially true for her formerly super-powerful telekinesis, her pink form, her efforts in trying to start a mutant nation that encompasses all mutants wherever they are, and her actions as White Phoenix of the Crown.

    For practical intents and purposes, for what still counts currently, Jean Grey died on the moon under Claremont and came back for House of X.

    I'm not sure what you mean in using the term red herring.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 07-24-2021 at 11:25 PM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  4. #5929
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I don't think writers care what fans say. They create stories using a combination of the characters they want and those mandated by editors. Even if they did decide to say "f this character just because Twitter"...I'm not in charge of Twitter lol. Really though, I think it comes down mostly to the creators feeling the way they personally feel about the characters. I don't buy fans being an influence beyond them knowing that Wolverine can push a solo title.

    As far as plans for Jean, I don't know anything but I have learned how stories work. Typically, slowly developing plots involves seeding things related to that plot for use later.
    These are fair points, though I still find it distasteful to assume what the senior editor's and writers' intentions are just because they are not writing what you want them to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    About X-Men Red, Blue, Jean Grey: just like the Morrison era, none of those books are reference points for the current version of the character. Those stories are things "she used to do". They are for all practical intents and purposes, not canon. That's especially true for her formerly super-powerful telekinesis, her pink form, her efforts in trying to start a mutant nation that encompasses all mutants wherever they are, and her actions as White Phoenix of the Crown.

    For practical intents and purposes, for what still counts currently, Jean Grey died on the moon under Claremont and came back for House of X.
    Let's be clear about something "for all practical intents and purposes [and] for what still counts": the Senior Editor in charge of the X-Men clearly stated regarding whether current Jean can do what teenage Jean did, "The answer is yes, but in regards to whether she will start using it, that remains to be seen." I'm sorry, but that means her power levels and capabilities as established with teenage Jean are very much canon. Now, I completely understand that the writers are currently not giving Jean as much focus as you would like or showing her use her powers in ways that you would prefer, but just because this is the case does not mean that you have the authority to determine what is canon regarding her character, especially when it contradicts what the Senior Editor, backed by Marvel nonetheless, has already explicitly stated and confirmed. If he or Marvel didn't want her time as teenage Jean regarded as canon, he or they would have said so.

    Furthermore, what bothers me most about your take is that, more than anything else, it sets Jean up. People will read a fan say things like "Oh, she can no longer do those things anymore because it's no longer canon" and actually believe such a baseless claim. This leads to needlessly excessive debates regarding her capabilities and fuels those who are looking to belittle or insult Jean as a character. It's even more irritating when, again, one of the top people in charge of what should be considered canon has already confirmed what she is capable of. You have more of a point regarding the White Phoenix of the Crown because Echo is currently bonded with the Phoenix Force, but I still haven't read any evidence indicating that Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force or status as the White Phoenix of the Crown is no longer canon, either. These assertions are conjecture at best and pernicious at worst.

    The bottom line is this: Current Jean Grey is capable of doing all that teenage Jean Grey did and that's per the Senior Editor in charge of the X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean in using the term red herring.
    Oxford Dictionary:
    2. something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.

  5. #5930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I don't think writers care what fans say. They create stories using a combination of the characters they want and those mandated by editors. Even if they did decide to say "f this character just because Twitter"...I'm not in charge of Twitter lol. Really though, I think it comes down mostly to the creators feeling the way they personally feel about the characters. I don't buy fans being an influence beyond them knowing that Wolverine can push a solo title.

    As far as plans for Jean, I don't know anything but I have learned how stories work. Typically, slowly developing plots involves seeding things related to that plot for use later.

    About X-Men Red, Blue, Jean Grey: just like the Morrison era, none of those books are reference points for the current version of the character. Those stories are things "she used to do". They are for all practical intents and purposes, not canon. That's especially true for her formerly super-powerful telekinesis, her pink form, her efforts in trying to start a mutant nation that encompasses all mutants wherever they are, and her actions as White Phoenix of the Crown.

    For practical intents and purposes, for what still counts currently, Jean Grey died on the moon under Claremont and came back for House of X.

    I'm not sure what you mean in using the term red herring.
    Ehh.... It's an influence but a tiny one.
    Specially small on team book as compared to solos.

    And as for canon and what's not.
    Most writers ignore small stuff and minor stories.
    They are still canon but they can be ignored at the same time.

    HOX/POX allows them to pick and choose on the largest scale and this is the Jean Grey they want.The personality, costume, relations, powers, etc. are what they want it to be even if it's not in her character.
    I mean I like it, but I'm not an old fan so I don't know what's been taken from her but I do know what she has now:-

    1)Power levels-Great, she an omega level and clearly the strongest.I don't think having her punch galactus or go toe to toe with Silver surfer is necessary.
    2)Personality-A bit to bland imo.With what they are going for in this era specially with her she lacking some fire.Although this even worse in X-men red.
    3)Costume-I like it and it makes sense for Krakoa era but not for her personal character before krakoa. One clearly is more important here(to the writers and editors).
    4)Relations-Fine, the Emma snarky friendship is good but romance wise sleeping with both Logan and Scott is not a good look and something I don't think she would ever do(again I don't know her as well as you guys so can you confirm) but makes sense and sets tone for Krakoa.One is more important here(to the X-office).

  6. #5931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Ehh.... It's an influence but a tiny one.
    Specially small on team book as compared to solos.
    It would be fascinating to know how much of an influence, but I suppose we will never truly know that, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    And as for canon and what's not.
    Most writers ignore small stuff and minor stories.
    They are still canon but they can be ignored at the same time.
    Her time as time-displaced teenage Jean was neither small nor minor. Furthermore, White makes clear that Jean's decision to not use her powers as she did when time-displaced is just that: a decision. And a decision, I might add, that he doesn't rule out Jean reversing. His ambiguity, i.e., when he says "remains to be seen," regarding her future use of her powers intrigues me. It clearly shows that he has not taken the option of having her revert back to those power displays off the table. Since I am prone to optimism, I interpret his ambiguity as a sign that he, in fact, has considered or is considering having Jean return to using her powers as she did as a time-displaced teenager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    HOX/POX allows them to pick and choose on the largest scale and this is the Jean Grey they want. The personality, costume, relations, powers, etc. are what they want it to be even if it's not in her character.
    True, but we don't know why they want this to be so, and that's key. Many have taken to assuming that they've done this because they simply lack interest in her or they "don't want" her to evolve. Again, that is conjecture. For all we know, they could be underplaying her only because they have plans to do something big with her character, but would rather those plans be a surprise. Example: For most of the 1990s, Jean's role was considerably diminished from what it was in the 1970s and, after her return, in the 1980s, save for a few standout moments (e.g., her battle with Sabretooth, her confrontation with Onslaught, etc.). Most fans would not have guessed that she would once again go by Phoenix and don the Phoenix costume, which she did for a period, or even less so that she would actually manifest the Phoenix Force again, which she did all throughout Morrison's run. Furthermore, after she was killed off and stayed dead for over a decade, most fans would not have guessed that she would be brought back and featured as a central character in a handful of Phoenix series, a new X-Men series, and headline two books of her own, but she was and she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    I mean I like it, but I'm not an old fan so I don't know what's been taken from her but I do know what she has now:-

    1)Power levels-Great, she an omega level and clearly the strongest.I don't think having her punch galactus or go toe to toe with Silver surfer is necessary.
    2)Personality-A bit to bland imo.With what they are going for in this era specially with her she lacking some fire.Although this even worse in X-men red.
    3)Costume-I like it and it makes sense for Krakoa era but not for her personal character before krakoa. One clearly is more important here(to the writers and editors).
    4)Relations-Fine, the Emma snarky friendship is good but romance wise sleeping with both Logan and Scott is not a good look and something I don't think she would ever do(again I don't know her as well as you guys so can you confirm) but makes sense and sets tone for Krakoa.One is more important here(to the X-office).
    1. She also went toe-to-toe with the Gladiator and thrashed him. Nevertheless, it is only necessary to show what she is capable of. It's been shown and we now know what Marvel and the Senior Editor consider her capable of. And that is without the Phoenix Force, I might add.
    2. I've liked her personality, but I can understand where you're coming from, especially if you prefer her more fiery displays.
    3. I believe this is strategic and Hickman has hinted as much.
    4. Her simultaneous relationships with both Scott and Logan seem the most uncharacteristic of her, though this could also be a seed that they have planted for later development. We really don't know.

  7. #5932
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    These are fair points, though I still find it distasteful to assume what the senior editor's and writers' intentions are just because they are not writing what you want them to write.



    Let's be clear about something "for all practical intents and purposes [and] for what still counts": the Senior Editor in charge of the X-Men clearly stated regarding whether current Jean can do what teenage Jean did, "The answer is yes, but in regards to whether she will start using it, that remains to be seen." I'm sorry, but that means her power levels and capabilities as established with teenage Jean are very much canon. Now, I completely understand that the writers are currently not giving Jean as much focus as you would like or showing her use her powers in ways that you would prefer, but just because this is the case does not mean that you have the authority to determine what is canon regarding her character, especially when it contradicts what the Senior Editor, backed by Marvel nonetheless, has already explicitly stated and confirmed. If he or Marvel didn't want her time as teenage Jean regarded as canon, he or they would have said so.

    Furthermore, what bothers me most about your take is that, more than anything else, it sets Jean up. People will read a fan say things like "Oh, she can no longer do those things anymore because it's no longer canon" and actually believe such a baseless claim. This leads to needlessly excessive debates regarding her capabilities and fuels those who are looking to belittle or insult Jean as a character. It's even more irritating when, again, one of the top people in charge of what should be considered canon has already confirmed what she is capable of. You have more of a point regarding the White Phoenix of the Crown because Echo is currently bonded with the Phoenix Force, but I still haven't read any evidence indicating that Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force or status as the White Phoenix of the Crown is no longer canon, either. These assertions are conjecture at best and pernicious at worst.

    The bottom line is this: Current Jean Grey is capable of doing all that teenage Jean Grey did and that's per the Senior Editor in charge of the X-Men.



    Oxford Dictionary:
    2. something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.
    To be honest, I don't really think about battle boards at all. I used the word "practical" because I am meaning to speak to things as far as how they are actually used and referred to within the comics. No, they can't physically alter reality so that the pink form stories and other stuff they don't want to count never happened and no one is arguing that they can do that. I am saying, as the head editor implied in the interview, that she can't do what Teen Jean can do because they aren't going to write her doing things Teen Jean could do. In a practical sense, those stories don't count; non-canon.

    Re red herring: I understand the definition, but what red herring are you referring to?
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 07-25-2021 at 12:31 AM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  8. #5933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    To be honest, I don't really think about battle boards at all. I used the word "practical" because I am meaning to speak to things as far as how they are actually used and referred to within the comics.
    Fair, but then it would be more appropriate to say "what the writers are choosing not to use" or "what the writers are having Jean decide not to use" rather than "not canon."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    No, they can't physically alter reality so that the pink form stories and other stuff they don't want to count never happened and no one is arguing that they can do that.
    True, "they can't physically alter reality," but they - in this case, Jordan D. White - have explicitly stated that current Jean's powers as displayed by time-displaced Jean are canon. This is irrefutable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I am saying, as the head editor implied in the interview, that she can't do what Teen Jean can do because they aren't going to write her doing things Teen Jean could do. In a practical sense, those stories don't count; non-canon.
    The senior editor implied no such thing. He said it "remains to be seen." He never used the word "can't" nor explicitly stated or even implied that "they aren't going to write her doing things Teen Jean could do." Again, he made clear that whether current Jean will use her powers as time-displaced Jean did "remains to be seen."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Re red herring: I understand the definition, but what red herring are you referring to?
    The dress, her relationships with Scott and Logan, her more understated quality this era... All of these, depending on what the writers are intending, could be red herrings. As I've stated repeatedly, we do not know.
    Last edited by Mercury; 07-25-2021 at 12:40 AM.

  9. #5934
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Loved all of issue #37 of All-New X-Men. I never thought I would like Emma Frost, but I fell in love with her here just a little bit.




  10. #5935
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Fair, but then it would be more appropriate to say "what the writers are choosing not to use" or "what the writers are having Jean decide not to use" rather than "not canon."



    True, "they can't physically alter reality," but they - in this case, Jordan D. White - have explicitly stated that current Jean's powers as displayed by time-displaced Jean are canon. This is irrefutable.



    The senior editor implied no such thing. He said it "remains to be seen." He never used the word "can't" nor explicitly stated or even implied that "they aren't going to write her doing things Teen Jean could do." Again, he made clear that whether current Jean will use her powers as time-displaced Jean did "remains to be seen."



    The dress, her relationships with Scott and Logan, her more understated quality this era... All of these, depending on what the writers are intending, could be red herrings. As I've stated repeatedly, we do not know.
    In saying that the pink thing was something "she used to do", he was saying that's something she doesn't do currently.

    He was saying, "that power's dumb" without being rude lol.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  11. #5936
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    In saying that the pink thing was something "she used to do", he was saying that's something she doesn't do currently.
    This is true, but he did not say she will never use her powers the way she did as teen Jean again. Again, he confirmed that "yes," she is capable of still doing those things and that whether she will use her powers in those ways again "remains to be seen." (I can't believe I have to keep repeating this.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    He was saying, "that power's dumb" without being rude lol.
    Um...wow.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    It would be fascinating to know how much of an influence, but I suppose we will never truly know that, lol.



    Her time as time-displaced teenage Jean was neither small nor minor. Furthermore, White makes clear that Jean's decision to not use her powers as she did when time-displaced is just that: a decision. And a decision, I might add, that he doesn't rule out Jean reversing. His ambiguity, i.e., when he says "remains to be seen," regarding her future use of her powers intrigues me. It clearly shows that he has not taken the option of having her revert back to those power displays off the table. Since I am prone to optimism, I interpret his ambiguity as a sign that he, in fact, has considered or is considering having Jean return to using her powers as she did as a time-displaced teenager.



    True, but we don't know why they want this to be so, and that's key. Many have taken to assuming that they've done this because they simply lack interest in her or they "don't want" her to evolve. Again, that is conjecture. For all we know, they could be underplaying her only because they have plans to do something big with her character, but would rather those plans be a surprise. Example: For most of the 1990s, Jean's role was considerably diminished from what it was in the 1970s and, after her return, in the 1980s, save for a few standout moments (e.g., her battle with Sabretooth, her confrontation with Onslaught, etc.). Most fans would not have guessed that she would once again go by Phoenix and don the Phoenix costume, which she did for a period, or even less so that she would actually manifest the Phoenix Force again, which she did all throughout Morrison's run. Furthermore, after she was killed off and stayed dead for over a decade, most fans would not have guessed that she would be brought back and featured as a central character in a handful of Phoenix series, a new X-Men series, and headline two books of her own, but she was and she did.



    1. She also went toe-to-toe with the Gladiator and thrashed him. Nevertheless, it is only necessary to show what she is capable of. It's been shown and we now know what Marvel and the Senior Editor consider her capable of. And that is without the Phoenix Force, I might add.
    2. I've liked her personality, but I can understand where you're coming from, especially if you prefer her more fiery displays.
    3. I believe this is strategic and Hickman has hinted as much.
    4. Her simultaneous relationships with both Scott and Logan seem the most uncharacteristic of her, though this could also be a seed that they have planted for later development. We really don't know.
    Yeah.I'd like to know that as well.

    I know.That is why they need something as big and important as HOX/POX to ignore it.
    Minor stuff is like characters that interacted once having a good opinion now suddenly hating the other for manufactured tension.

    Yeah.Guess well, wait and see.

    1.Yeah, we know she is capable of all that.My point is what is her current norm.
    2.Yeah, it's fine or even better than fine.Just a nitpick on my side.
    3.Yeah.And I don't mind it.
    4.Yeah, I really hope that they all are who they are.A clones or mental manipulation retcon makes all these books kinda pointless for characters.

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    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    This is true, but he did not say she will never use her powers the way she did as teen Jean again. Again, he confirmed that "yes," she is capable of still doing those things and that whether she will use her powers in those ways again "remains to be seen." (I can't believe I have to keep repeating this.)




    Um...wow.

    You don't have to keep repeating anything. I follow what you are saying; I am just betting that you are misjudging the tone of the editor's comments.

    Did you never ask a parent or guardian if you can have something, only for them to tell you "we'll see" while having no intention of buying whatever you just asked for?

    This is that.

    I would happily be wrong, but I think the point of that comment from the editor is that the pink form isn't something they are interested in.

    Honestly, do the comments about Jean scattered throughout the X-Men Mondays ever come off as if they are interested in the character, outside of considering which girlfriend Scott should choose? IMO, the apathy anytime the character comes up is...prominent.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 07-25-2021 at 03:36 AM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

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    As for how strong the word of someone is compared to what we see

    Nick Spencer said Spider-man practices the way of the Spider(his martial arts style) every morning.
    But in the Shang chi 1 comics, he says he hasn't used it a lot.

    Again I'm inclined to believe an ASM writer who knows his sh*t rather than a random comic in which he is a guest.
    And a lot of facts are gotten wrong in random comics.
    For e.x. Spider-man has had an in-built gas filter in his mask but yet in Spider-man X-men series he gets knocked out by gas attacks.

    This and the Shang chi thing are inconsistencies.

    But this is a senior editor vs what we have seen of the book so I don't know who outweighs who here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Loved all of issue #37 of All-New X-Men. I never thought I would like Emma Frost, but I fell in love with her here just a little bit.



    May I ask what you like about Emma in this issue? I have my own issues with her tbh

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