Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

Also one question but not about Jean, but phoenix related.I feel people her are the best for this answer, if not I will take this down and post elsewhere.
Why do people think Cyclops was right in AvX(not when in the phoenix force):-

1)The beach battle:-I hear people say that the Avengers and Logan should not interfere since they haven't dealt with phoenix.It's an X-men issue.
But Cap only interfered because Logan told him that Scott was planning to use the phoenix(which he was) for the mutant race.Aside from all the other shady stuff they did on Utopia this clearly means they has ulterior motives.

2)Hope could barely hold the phoenix and that was after training by Iron Fist and Spider-man and then Wanda's help.
It's pretty clear she would fail if not for those.

Is there any reasoning to explain all this.

Also why do X-men pretend that Avengers and the others never helped them when they have multiple times.
And Emma brought this up after genosha but both Avengers and X-men were busy saving the world or trapped.One was with Kang atm.

I always like Jean in X-men red being cool with Avengers

[Spiderfan001]

For those interested, I have compiled all of the complete Jean-centered backstories published in Classic X-Men in one thread on Twitter. These stories flesh out the Phoenix Saga and Dark Phoenix Saga. They are essential reading.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...97414916767744

Thank you.
Some of these are great

[PyroFN]

Didn't Wanda also take out the entire Avengers and X-men by using some sort of telepathy in children's crusade.
And Loki and strange have many TP and related feats.
I have no idea about Agatha.

No. She didn’t. It was normal hexes (seen by the fact that they came from her hands) and she caught everyone off-guard with it while they were fighting each other.

I said Loki, Agatha, and Strange were the exceptions.

[PyroFN]

Also one question but not about Jean, but phoenix related.I feel people her are the best for this answer, if not I will take this down and post elsewhere.
Why do people think Cyclops was right in AvX(not when in the phoenix force):-

I promise I am not being snippy when I say this:

Because he was right. The Phoenix’ entire goal was to restart mutantkind after Wanda wiped out the population. The Avengers had a right to be afraid, but their entire goal was in conflict with a force they could not stop and was non-hostile initially. It attacked when the Avengers would come at it and the Phoenix Five only became corrupt because they were constantly being antagonized by the Avengers.

Reading the original Dark Phoenix Saga, it was apparent that the raw power brought in dark thoughts in Jean that she didn’t want to acknowledge. Mastermind nurtured those Dark thoughts and drove her with a lust for it. In the same way, by forcing the X-Men into a war, the Phoenix was being fed dark emotions that would end up being magnified by the constant warring between factions.

What was the Avengers solution in the end?…….. Make Hope Summers the host because according to Iron Man’s data, the prime host is the only one capable of defeating and controlling it…..so in essence, the exact thing the X-Men were doing to begin with. Only now, they had to go the extra step of defeating a Dark Phoenix Cyclops because they pushed him into corner.

1)The beach battle:-I hear people say that the Avengers and Logan should not interfere since they haven't dealt with phoenix.It's an X-men issue.
But Cap only interfered because Logan told him that Scott was planning to use the phoenix(which he was) for the mutant race.Aside from all the other shady stuff they did on Utopia this clearly means they has ulterior motives.

If that were true, the Phoenix Five would have done so when they had the Phoenix. But they clearly showed nothing but a desire for peace and prosperity between humanity and mutants as they provided for the entire planet with the Phoenix’ powers.

Logan, for all his experience with the Phoenix Force, does not know how to deal with it beyond his claws. He couldn’t get through to Jean Grey and she would come to him to kill her if she couldn’t deal with it, which wouldn’t work the two times she tried with him. And the basis of AvX entirely ignores the good the Phoenix did before and after Dark Phoenix. So, with all due respect, none of them properly knew what went on with the Phoenix Force and had no business in dealing with it.

2)Hope could barely hold the phoenix and that was after training by Iron Fist and Spider-man and then Wanda's help.
It's pretty clear she would fail if not for those.

You meaning training and support she would have gotten from Cyclops and the X-Men had the Avengers not interrupted? It’s no secret, claimed even from Jean herself, that a degree of mental fortitude and emotional support is necessary when dealing with the Phoenix.

Hope was never supposed do it alone to begin with. Whether it would have worked out in the long run is unknown to me, but it’s quite apparent the Avengers got incredibly lucky. We’re it not for Kun Lun taking the initiative in continuing training Hope, the team would have still had a relatively untrained Hope with no clarity on how to get out of the mess they made.

Also why do X-men pretend that Avengers and the others never helped them when they have multiple times.
And Emma brought this up after genosha but both Avengers and X-men were busy saving the world or trapped.One was with Kang atm.

I always like Jean in X-men red being cool with Avengers

Because it was always for large scale threats. The large scale stuff is important, but we can’t go on thinking that is all the X-Men needed help with. The Avengers deal with big threats. That’s fine and appreciated, but they can’t go claiming a moral high ground on issues they have no clue about, especially when they take in refuge one of the literal cause for their problems, Wanda Maximoff.

The X-Men aren’t saints, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t wrong in claiming the Avengers do very little to help in the efforts of peace between mutantkind and humanity. They tried with Uncanny Avengers, but that turned into a complicated mess that did nothing for the peace between mutant and humans. Then the mutants face extinction twice over with IvX and then Rosenberg’s Uncanny when the majority of X-Men are taken to an alternate universe, leaving mutantkind with no saviors for them. Seriously, mutants were being put into concentration camps and used as weapons by the government. Even Hope Summers joined a rebel band of mutants that Cyclop’s X-Men had to stop because conditions were so bad. And we get nothing from Captain America beyond him keeping Scott from starting a riot in one of the rallies about mutants being persecuted.

It’s a complex issue that the Avengers wash their hands clean of for bigger problems.

Edit: I hope this doesn’t come off as dismissive. Like I said, what the Avengers do is very important. My point is mostly they don’t have a claim on the mutant issue because they basically stay out of it until things start to get dangerous.

[Spiderfan001]

No. She didn’t. It was normal hexes (seen by the fact that they came from her hands) and she caught everyone off-guard with it while they were fighting each other.

I said Loki, Agatha, and Strange were the exceptions.

Oh okay.

I don't see any other TP feats for her in respect threads so I'm guessing she's not a Telepath.

[Spiderfan001]

I promise I am not being snippy when I say this:

Because he was right. The Phoenix’ entire goal was to restart mutantkind after Wanda wiped out the population. The Avengers had a right to be afraid, but their entire goal was in conflict with a force they could not stop and was non-hostile initially. It attacked when the Avengers would come at it and the Phoenix Five only became corrupt because they were constantly being antagonized by the Avengers.

Reading the original Dark Phoenix Saga, it was apparent that the raw power brought in dark thoughts in Jean that she didn’t want to acknowledge. Mastermind nurtured those Dark thoughts and drove her with a lust for it. In the same way, by forcing the X-Men into a war, the Phoenix was being fed dark emotions that would end up being magnified by the constant warring between factions.

What was the Avengers solution in the end?…….. Make Hope Summers the host because according to Iron Man’s data, the prime host is the only one capable of defeating and controlling it…..so in essence, the exact thing the X-Men were doing to begin with. Only now, they had to go the extra step of defeating a Dark Phoenix Cyclops because they pushed him into corner.




If that were true, the Phoenix Five would have done so when they had the Phoenix. But they clearly showed nothing but a desire for peace and prosperity between humanity and mutants as they provided for the entire planet with the Phoenix’ powers.

Logan, for all his experience with the Phoenix Force, does not know how to deal with it beyond his claws. He couldn’t get through to Jean Grey and she would come to him to kill her if she couldn’t deal with it, which wouldn’t work the two times she tried with him. And the basis of AvX entirely ignores the good the Phoenix did before and after Dark Phoenix. So, with all due respect, none of them properly knew what went on with the Phoenix Force and had no business in dealing with it.



You meaning training and support she would have gotten from Cyclops and the X-Men had the Avengers not interrupted? It’s no secret, claimed even from Jean herself, that a degree of mental fortitude and emotional support is necessary when dealing with the Phoenix.

Hope was never supposed do it alone to begin with. Whether it would have worked out in the long run is unknown to me, but it’s quite apparent the Avengers got incredibly lucky. We’re it not for Kun Lun taking the initiative in continuing training Hope, the team would have still had a relatively untrained Hope with no clarity on how to get out of the mess they made.



Because it was always for large scale threats. The large scale stuff is important, but we can’t go on thinking that is all the X-Men needed help with. The Avengers deal with big threats. That’s fine and appreciated, but they can’t go claiming a moral high ground on issues they have no clue about, especially when they take in refuge one of the literal cause for their problems, Wanda Maximoff.

The X-Men aren’t saints, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t wrong in claiming the Avengers do very little to help in the efforts of peace between mutantkind and humanity. They tried with Uncanny Avengers, but that turned into a complicated mess that did nothing for the peace between mutant and humans. Then the mutants face extinction twice over with IvX and then Rosenberg’s Uncanny when the majority of X-Men are taken to an alternate universe, leaving mutantkind with no saviors for them. Seriously, mutants were being put into concentration camps and used as weapons by the government. Even Hope Summers joined a rebel band of mutants that Cyclop’s X-Men had to stop because conditions were so bad. And we get nothing from Captain America beyond him keeping Scott from starting a riot in one of the rallies about mutants being persecuted.

It’s a complex issue that the Avengers wash their hands clean of for bigger problems.

Edit: I hope this doesn’t come off as dismissive. Like I said, what the Avengers do is very important. My point is mostly they don’t have a claim on the mutant issue because they basically stay out of it until things start to get dangerous.

I've read this and want to write a thought out response instead of a reactionary one.
Give me some time and I'll get back to this, also need to check some facts

[Mercury]

Thank you.
Some of these are great

You're welcome! I also started a thread series covering Jean's power development. I just finished the first thread, which covers her appearances in the first 137 issues of Uncanny X-Men, culminating in her "death" at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga:

First thread: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865

I just started her the second thread, which will cover her return and appearances in X-Factor:

Second thread: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...32583046991872

I hope you enjoy and find them informative.

[Askani's Flame]

Additional context for Spiderfan001 as this is a good overall overview

I promise I am not being snippy when I say this:

Because he was right. The Phoenix’ entire goal was to restart mutantkind after Wanda wiped out the population. The Avengers had a right to be afraid, but their entire goal was in conflict with a force they could not stop and was non-hostile initially. It attacked when the Avengers would come at it and the Phoenix Five only became corrupt because they were constantly being antagonized by the Avengers.

Reading the original Dark Phoenix Saga, it was apparent that the raw power brought in dark thoughts in Jean that she didn’t want to acknowledge. Mastermind nurtured those Dark thoughts and drove her with a lust for it. In the same way, by forcing the X-Men into a war, the Phoenix was being fed dark emotions that would end up being magnified by the constant warring between factions.

What was the Avengers solution in the end?…….. Make Hope Summers the host because according to Iron Man’s data, the prime host is the only one capable of defeating and controlling it…..so in essence, the exact thing the X-Men were doing to begin with. Only now, they had to go the extra step of defeating a Dark Phoenix Cyclops because they pushed him into corner.

If that were true, the Phoenix Five would have done so when they had the Phoenix. But they clearly showed nothing but a desire for peace and prosperity between humanity and mutants as they provided for the entire planet with the Phoenix’ powers.

Logan, for all his experience with the Phoenix Force, does not know how to deal with it beyond his claws. He couldn’t get through to Jean Grey and she would come to him to kill her if she couldn’t deal with it, which wouldn’t work the two times she tried with him. And the basis of AvX entirely ignores the good the Phoenix did before and after Dark Phoenix. So, with all due respect, none of them properly knew what went on with the Phoenix Force and had no business in dealing with it.

A few other bits of context, part of the reason that Tony was SOOO concerned about the Phoenix Force (other than Novas report) was from some awful time travel story featured in Iron Age (1-3 and then Omega) where a Iron Man villain decides to destroy the world by bringing Dark Phoenix to the present and destroys the Earth. Tony time travels, manages to undo everything, and sets the timeline right. Hence why the EVILS of the Phoenix Force is on his mind and he has some things brewing prior to AvX starting. It's nonsense and I wish it weren't canon but I can't find anything that says it isn't.

And yes, Logan apparently is more of an expert on the Phoenix Force because he's stabbed Jean and Rachel in the past a few times, vs any of the previous hosts who were active in the X-Men and controlled it well (Rachel, Emma, the Cuckoos) or anyone closer to Jean than he (Storm). Contrived nonsense to elevate his status as a traitor to the X-Men in this event. He should never have been made any type of authority to the PF.

You meaning training and support she would have gotten from Cyclops and the X-Men had the Avengers not interrupted? It’s no secret, claimed even from Jean herself, that a degree of mental fortitude and emotional support is necessary when dealing with the Phoenix.

Hope was never supposed do it alone to begin with. Whether it would have worked out in the long run is unknown to me, but it’s quite apparent the Avengers got incredibly lucky. We’re it not for Kun Lun taking the initiative in continuing training Hope, the team would have still had a relatively untrained Hope with no clarity on how to get out of the mess they made.

Also a convenient reminder that while the entire event was contrived to make money and characters are wildly written out of character, the sidelining of Rachel Hope's mentor prior to and during this event made little sense to everyone, especially since Spidey's training consisted of carrying buckets and referencing an undeveloped and unknown previous Iron Fist Phoenix host conveniently created and revealed only for this event (a ploy to begin cementing the Avengers and greater MU tie and ownership of the PF over the X-Men).

[WallStreeter]

No. She didn’t. It was normal hexes (seen by the fact that they came from her hands) and she caught everyone off-guard with it while they were fighting each other.

I said Loki, Agatha, and Strange were the exceptions.

The Enchantress has regularly used telepathy and she was powerful enough to block Xavier. Wanda didn’t become a skilled enough magic user to use telepathy in the comics until Avengers Dissambled. She read the minds of the Avengers and manifested their greatest fears. Then before House of M when Xavier decided to check up on Wanda she sensed him reading her mind and was able to use the link to add his telepathic powers to her to create House of M with her reality altering magic.

Oh, Magik has done stuff like astral projections and is able to sense things. Her soul sword even cuts through astral entities.

[Omega_DCD]

I liked Jean in today’s Cable #12 issue

[Phoenixx9]

I liked Jean in today’s Cable #12 issue

Can you give [spoiler] details?

[Omega_DCD]

Can you give [spoiler] details?

Well it’s more to do with her character than feats, but

spoilers:

Feats-wise Jean could have handled things herself most likely, but it’s not her book and she’s not the focus, but I like the emotional support she gives to Esme as she’s dealing with Kid Cable getting read to “leave”. They also team up to neutralize Strye’s powers, which again, Jean could have done herself, but I liked seeing them together and gives Jean a mentor vibe

end of spoilers

[Phoenixx9]

Well it’s more to do with her character than feats, but

spoilers:

Feats-wise Jean could have handled things herself most likely, but it’s not her book and she’s not the focus, but I like the emotional support she gives to Esme as she’s dealing with Kid Cable getting read to “leave”. They also team up to neutralize Strye’s powers, which again, Jean could have done herself, but I liked seeing them together and gives Jean a mentor vibe

end of spoilers

Thanks. I like seeing different character interactions with Jean.

spoilers:

I also take it as they need Jean's help, not the other way around. As you mention it is a team book, so when these other characters need help, Jean is using her powers with them, but it is they who need her power, help, expertise, not the other way around.

end of spoilers

[Daedra]

Thanks. I like seeing different character interactions with Jean.

spoilers:

I also take it as they need Jean's help, not the other way around. As you mention it is a team book, so when these other characters need help, Jean is using her powers with them, but it is they who need her power, help, expertise, not the other way around.

end of spoilers

With 2 cable, hope, rachel, esme and jean how could stryfe ever hope to not be psionically squashed like an insect ?

[Phoenixx9]

With 2 cable, hope, rachel, esme and jean how could stryfe ever hope to not be psionically squashed like an insect ?

hehehe, I like seeing stryfe squashed like an insect! [Buzzz Buzzz, SQUASSHHHH! lol]