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  1. #6781
    Incredible Member Starchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean is a compassionate person and it was perfectly in character for her to forgive him in that annual especially given the context that his sins weren't perpetrated towards her; it was an alien being masquerading as her at the time that was written. He was dying and it would be fitting of her to kick him while he was down. Thats not who Jean is nor has it ever been
    While I agree that she is a compassionate character and she forgives people, I think the decision of Lobdell to show her compassion to a villain with that kind of behavior is wrong on many levels. Why would we need a story of a character sowing mercy to an abuser? it's kind of wrong to me. And Lobdell himself harassed women so I don't see the idea behind this story with good eyes.
    Last edited by Starchilde; 08-20-2021 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #6782
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    While I agree that she is a compassionate character and she forgives people, I think the decision of Lobdell to show her compassion to a villain with that kind of behavior is wrong on many levels. Why would we need a story of a character sowing mercy to an abuser? it's kind of wrong to me. And Lobdell himself harassed women so I don't see the idea behind this story with good eyes.
    You bring up some very valid points. I’m still taking in what I read today. Like, I actually have to process it.

    Also, I’ve tweeted pivotal pages here: https://mobile.twitter.com/Jean_RED_...12671042867210
    Last edited by Mercury; 08-20-2021 at 03:47 PM.

  3. #6783
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I just read it and… actually sort of loved it? I kind of feel like Havok83 does. Anyway, I had to hunt the issue down because it’s not available on Marvel Unlimited. I’m in the middle of preparing to tweet some amazing pages from it as I type this.

    I have much to think about. This should have been a regular issue.
    Actually it is on Marvel Unlimited, it's just their listing system has glitches...there are two separate entries for X-Men Annual (1970-1994)

    Screenshot_20210820-161412_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Screenshot_20210820-161406_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    I think this was the first annual I ever purchased. Btw this is where Colossus suffers the injury to his face while in Armored form, causing him to stay Armored until being tricked into letting them heal him in Excalibur #71

    I used to really like this issue...I liked the part where she rages at faux Rachel and Nathan while processing how she feels about them...but things have evolved drastically. In just the next year (our time) Jean would formally apologize to Rachel and let her be the first to know of her proposal plans to Scott...and right after, would go on to actually help raise Nathan for 12 years in the future.

    As for Mastermind, yeah trying to paint him as sympathetic fails hard, and while it's ok if Jean chooses to forgive him, what annoyed me was her being willing to stay in his mind when he dies, given the consequences she herself could face...in my headcanon, I just say Jean is sure of herself as a telepath that she knows she could survive the trauma, but in story, she's just willing to risk dying for something and someone that isn't worth it.

  4. #6784
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    From Uncanny X-Men Annual #17:





    Chiiile, her telekinetic feats in this issue, though. :chef’s kiss: Her tk works on the astral plane.

    Last edited by Mercury; 08-20-2021 at 04:37 PM.

  5. #6785
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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  6. #6786
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    First there was the milk (above) and now for the honey...

    TK and TP feats incoming -






  7. #6787
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    I already posted this one but I repeat: SHE USED HER TELEKINESIS TO TRANSPORT PEOPLE OUT OF THE ASTRAL PLANE.


  8. #6788
    The Great Bull Del torro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Jean Grey has been making the sexists mad for decades. You love to see it.

    "No female is going to beat Thor!" Lmao I imagine guy must have lost his **** when they gave Jane the hammer.

    And Byrne...lol one of the worst to this day. He has his grievances with more kinds of people than just powerful females.
    Yeah... Everytime I read this interview, I just get pissed all over again

  9. #6789
    Fantastic Member thechronic92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    For those interested, the issue is available for free here: https://r...Annual-17?id=22711
    That link will probably get you banned. It's probably best to remove it.
    Last edited by thechronic92; 08-20-2021 at 03:49 PM.

  10. #6790
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechronic92 View Post
    That link will probably get you banned. It's probably best to remove it.
    Yikes! I didn't know. Thank you for letting me know. I've deleted the link.

  11. #6791
    Incredible Member Starchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    As for Mastermind, yeah trying to paint him as sympathetic fails hard, and while it's ok if Jean chooses to forgive him, what annoyed me was her being willing to stay in his mind when he dies, given the consequences she herself could face...in my headcanon, I just say Jean is sure of herself as a telepath that she knows she could survive the trauma, but in story, she's just willing to risk dying for something and someone that isn't worth it.
    I agree with everything, and I also think that this annual endorses the idea that, since it happened to “another Jean”, what Wyngarde did was not really a bad thing. It looks like Wyngarde is absolved of any fault because the girl “wasn’t Jean” (the annual mentions this narrative a couple of times). If it was Jean or not, is still an horrible thing. Consequences of the messy retcon of the Phoenix Saga and how it erases Jean’s own experiences.

    (I openly hate the Phoenix retcon, so for me, all of those experiences are still Jean’s).
    Last edited by Starchilde; 08-20-2021 at 06:33 PM.

  12. #6792
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    I agree with everything, and I also think that this annual endorses the idea that, since it happened to “another Jean”, what Wyngarde did was not really a bad thing. It looks like Wyngarde is absolved of any fault because the girl “wasn’t Jean” (the annual mentions this narrative a couple of times). If it was Jean or not, is still an horrible thing. Consequences of the messy retcon of the Phoenix Saga and how it erases Jean’s own experiences.

    (I openly hate the Phoenix retcon, so for me, all of those experiences are still Jean’s).
    Yes that's a great point as well, and I definitely loathe the retcon and all of the character growth and character dynamics it effectively tried to rob from Jean.

    And messy is exactly right because as of Inferno (1.0), Jean still has all of those exact memories and experiences integrated into her mind. Even after purging the aspects of their personalities, the memories remained. Jean remembered being on the Blue area of the Moon when X-Factor confronted Apocalypse, Jean remembered being in the Hellfire Club in UXM 281...and the memories she absorbed were still potent enough to make Jean turn down Scott's proposal because it felt too much like his proposal to Madelyne and she'd just be going through the motions. I just remembered in that same proposal issue, Jean has a visceral reaction to someone she thinks she sees, from behind, is Mastermind and telekinetically knocks their hat off and then realizes it's someone else.

    Even the psychic rapport established by Jean/Phoenix came back on its own soon after Jean’s telepathy came back because Jean’s soul was a part of Jean/Phoenix, and was returned after Inferno...so yeah, that whole deep retcon denial era was frustrating

  13. #6793
    Mighty Member KoriandrJean's Avatar
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    It is LONG PAST TIME that Marvel stand up, and admit that they wronged Jean Grey by turning her into a genocidal murderers - and fix it!

  14. #6794
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    As for Mastermind, yeah trying to paint him as sympathetic fails hard, and while it's ok if Jean chooses to forgive him, what annoyed me was her being willing to stay in his mind when he dies, given the consequences she herself could face...in my headcanon, I just say Jean is sure of herself as a telepath that she knows she could survive the trauma, but in story, she's just willing to risk dying for something and someone that isn't worth it.
    Frankly, I am surprised by how much I like this issue and the clarification and closure it provides. Jean's boundless empathy is on full display. She doesn't call Mastermind to task for what he really did, i.e., psychically and maybe even physically rape her clone, because he is dying, attempting, feebly so, to make amends, and she is a supreme empath. She could have easily denied his request for her to visit him and, standing before him, could have also easily destroyed him. However, that is not who she is. Also, I don’t think she ever felt she was in danger of dying along with him, and that’s why she telekinetically ejected Bobby and Bishop from and remained in his illusion on the astral plane. (Interestingly, the details of how Mastermind enveloped them in his illusions made me realize that, during the Dark Phoenix Saga, he had done the same to the clone created by the Phoenix Force [P.F.] and to Jean’s duplicated essence. He didn’t penetrate her mind as much as envelope it in his illusions on the astral plane, which speaks to what she was "desiring.")

    Furthermore, I am actually pleased that Jean distinguishes herself from the clone the P.F. created. As much as I love Claremont's and Cockrum's original motivation for and intention behind creating the P.F. - to show Jean's fullest potential as a psi - that story was retconned and, though a duplicate of Jean's essence was bonded to the clone, neither the duplicated essence, Phoenix, nor Dark Phoenix was really Jean Grey. As a longtime Jean fan, I have often been torn between accepting that Jean was technically not the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix and insisting that she was. I think many of us, i.e., fans, have conflated the P.F.’s abilities with Jean’s abilities, feeling that, if we accept the retcon, we are admitting Jean is not powerful. As a result of this issue, for the first time, I felt okay fully accepting the fact that Jean's true essence was not involved in the Phoenix Saga or Dark Phoenix Saga. Not to be melodramatic, but it was almost as if a long and tightly shut door unlatched for me.

    Incidentally, what I love most about how five-time Eisner Award winner Brian Michael Bendis wrote Jean is that he showed how powerful she always was and still is sans the P.F. He not only tipped his hat to what was both alluded to and stated (e.g., "She has infinite mental powers!”) during the original 66-issue run of X-Men, before the P.F. was even an idea in Claremont’s mind, he also expounded upon both. He showed why the P.F. was drawn to Jean, which was a combination of her purity of heart, soul, and intent and her innate raw and potentially infinite power. He effectively railed against the unfounded declaration Claremont was the first to make when he wrote, "Jean used to be the weakest X-Man." He underscored that Jean doesn't need nor ever needed the P.F. to reach her fullest potential as a psi. The fact that Jordan D. White has confirmed that time-displaced teenage Jean is current Jean, her memories and powers intact, made me sigh with relief. This is why I hope this aspect of Jean’s history, i.e., her time travel and power exploration and revelation during this period, is further explored.

    All of that being said, I do find some of Mastermind's dialogue troublesome. However, it also strikes me as realistic because this is often how predators think and feel, even when confessing their perpetrations: They justify their violations by underscoring their own trials, tribulations, and, in some cases, understandable victimhood. They also tend to skirt around the details and ramifications of the abuses they have inflicted upon their victims, almost as if they simply can’t face the gravity of what they have done. It may not be as satisfying as having him confess to what he really did or having Jean eviscerate him, but it does ring true to life.

    Mastermind says to Jean, “Being who I was - what I was - I had never known love, Jean. Until you... I know you never truly loved me. No one has ever - could ever - love me. Yes, I coerced you into ‘loving’ me - but, please understand...even as unreal as it was...it was the closest I ever came to a relationship. Spent my whole life taking...when I learned I was dying...I wanted desperately to give something. Once. A gift goodbye. Wanted to give you all a glimpse...of a better world. I'm sorry…”
    It is at this point that she realizes she, Bobby, and Bishop could die if Mastermind dies, but as she once stated, “the psyche is [her] domain,” and so she acts to save her teammates by telekinetically ejecting them from his illusion and chooses to stay. The call to forgiveness, to transcend the frailty and fallibility of the human ego, and to see to it that someone, even someone as abhorrent as Mastermind, experiences redemption compels her to remain. This may actually be one of my favorite moments of hers:

    Mastermind asks, “Why are you being so kind? After every thing I’ve done to you… I don’t de - don’t deserve -“

    Jean interjects, “People make mistakes, Jason. Sometimes it’s a momentary lapse in judgement. Once in a while, it’s an entire lifetime spent charging off in the wrong direction. You’re one of the few who got a chance to make amends. And I was fortunate enough to have shared that experience with you.”

    “Jean…one last favor?” Mastermind asks.

    “Certainly.”

    “Years from now…when you think of me…promise you won’t hate me. I couldn’t spend eternity knowing…that you hate me.”

    “I promise,” Jean assures him. “But you don’t have to worry. I’ll be right here with you.”
    And with that, even though Jean seems to know she will not die with him - she did once transfer her psyche from her dead body into Emma Frost’s body - Mastermind saves her.

    “Wha - ?! Psionic arm forming along the astral wall! You’re using the last bit of your power to save my life?! Jason, NO…you don’t have to die alone!”

    Later, when Bobby asks, “You didn’t tell him you and Phoenix were two separate people?”

    Jean responds, “No, Bobby. He lost his life…I saw no reason to take his dreams.”
    As much as I hated and maybe still hate Mastermind for what he did, this issue gave me closure on two things: Jean was never really the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix - though on some level they were bonded, they were separate beings - and Jean faced what was done and she remembers and was able to forgive him - something I am not sure I could have done without calling him to task. Perhaps the fact that she recognized herself as a separate person from the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix allowed her to express such selflessness.

    I am still processing this issue and may even change my mind regarding how I feel about it, but for now, it has thrust me into a contemplative state and has made me love my favorite character more than I thought possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    (I openly hate the Phoenix retcon, so for me, all of those experiences are still Jean’s).
    I once hated the retcon, too, and tried to ignore it, but I have not only made my peace with it, I have grown to prefer it. Part of this has to do with the fact that Claremont did not adequately address the abuses perpetrated by Mastermind and Emma nor their effects on Jean, or, as was later revealed, her clone. He and Byrne alluded to both through swathes of dialogue and art, but they never tackled it head-on. In the end, much has been attributed to Jean’s “dark desires” that, frankly, I feel are not only not indicative of her character, but diminishing of the severity of abuse - psychic and physical - and trauma.

    I prefer Bendis’ final take on the relationship between Jean and the P.F.:

    Last edited by Mercury; 08-20-2021 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Grammar

  15. #6795
    Mighty Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    If someone owns the Marvel/DC: All Access issue 4, can they check if the right panels exist of this Jean vs Superman fight, where she bounces a psychonetic bolt at Superman? I see them on the Internet, but I can’t find where. I assume it’s from issue 4, but I want express confirmation from someone who owns it.


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