Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Frankly, I am surprised by how much I like this issue and the clarification and closure it provides. Jean's boundless empathy is on full display. She doesn't call Mastermind to task for what he really did, i.e., psychically and maybe even physically rape her clone, because he is dying, attempting, feebly so, to make amends, and she is a supreme empath. She could have easily denied his request for her to visit him and, standing before him, could have also easily destroyed him. However, that is not who she is. Also, I don’t think she ever felt she was in danger of dying along with him, and that’s why she telekinetically ejected Bobby and Bishop from and remained in his illusion on the astral plane. (Interestingly, the details of how Mastermind enveloped them in his illusions made me realize that, during the Dark Phoenix Saga, he had done the same to the clone created by the Phoenix Force [P.F.] and to Jean’s duplicated essence. He didn’t penetrate her mind as much as envelope it in his illusions on the astral plane, which speaks to what she was "desiring.")

Furthermore, I am actually pleased that Jean distinguishes herself from the clone the P.F. created. As much as I love Claremont's and Cockrum's original motivation for and intention behind creating the P.F. - to show Jean's fullest potential as a psi - that story was retconned and, though a duplicate of Jean's essence was bonded to the clone, neither the duplicated essence, Phoenix, nor Dark Phoenix was really Jean Grey. As a longtime Jean fan, I have often been torn between accepting that Jean was technically not the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix and insisting that she was. I think many of us, i.e., fans, have conflated the P.F.’s abilities with Jean’s abilities, feeling that, if we accept the retcon, we are admitting Jean is not powerful. As a result of this issue, for the first time, I felt okay fully accepting the fact that Jean's true essence was not involved in the Phoenix Saga or Dark Phoenix Saga. Not to be melodramatic, but it was almost as if a long and tightly shut door unlatched for me.

Incidentally, what I love most about how five-time Eisner Award winner Brian Michael Bendis wrote Jean is that he showed how powerful she always was and still is sans the P.F. He not only tipped his hat to what was both alluded to and stated (e.g., "She has infinite mental powers!”) during the original 66-issue run of X-Men, before the P.F. was even an idea in Claremont’s mind, he also expounded upon both. He showed why the P.F. was drawn to Jean, which was a combination of her purity of heart, soul, and intent and her innate raw and potentially infinite power. He effectively railed against the unfounded declaration Claremont was the first to make when he wrote, "Jean used to be the weakest X-Man." He underscored that Jean doesn't need nor ever needed the P.F. to reach her fullest potential as a psi. The fact that Jordan D. White has confirmed that time-displaced teenage Jean is current Jean, her memories and powers intact, made me sigh with relief. This is why I hope this aspect of Jean’s history, i.e., her time travel and power exploration and revelation during this period, is further explored.

All of that being said, I do find some of Mastermind's dialogue troublesome. However, it also strikes me as realistic because this is often how predators think and feel, even when confessing their perpetrations: They justify their violations by underscoring their own trials, tribulations, and, in some cases, understandable victimhood. They also tend to skirt around the details and ramifications of the abuses they have inflicted upon their victims, almost as if they simply can’t face the gravity of what they have done. It may not be as satisfying as having him confess to what he really did or having Jean eviscerate him, but it does ring true to life.



It is at this point that she realizes she, Bobby, and Bishop could die if Mastermind dies, but as she once stated, “the psyche is [her] domain,” and so she acts to save her teammates by telekinetically ejecting them from his illusion and chooses to stay. The call to forgiveness, to transcend the frailty and fallibility of the human ego, and to see to it that someone, even someone as abhorrent as Mastermind, experiences redemption compels her to remain. This may actually be one of my favorite moments of hers:



And with that, even though Jean seems to know she will not die with him - she did once transfer her psyche from her dead body into Emma Frost’s body - Mastermind saves her.



As much as I hated and maybe still hate Mastermind for what he did, this issue gave me closure on two things: Jean was never really the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix - though on some level they were bonded, they were separate beings - and Jean faced what was done and she remembers and was able to forgive him - something I am not sure I could have done without calling him to task. Perhaps the fact that she recognized herself as a separate person from the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix allowed her to express such selflessness.

I am still processing this issue and may even change my mind regarding how I feel about it, but for now, it has thrust me into a contemplative state and has made me love my favorite character more than I thought possible.



I once hated the retcon, too, and tried to ignore it, but I have not only made my peace with it, I have grown to prefer it. Part of this has to do with the fact that Claremont did not adequately address the abuses perpetrated by Mastermind and Emma nor their effects on Jean, or, as was later revealed, her clone. He and Byrne alluded to both through swathes of dialogue and art, but they never tackled it head-on. In the end, much has been attributed to Jean’s “dark desires” that, frankly, I feel are not only not indicative of her character, but diminishing of the severity of abuse - psychic and physical - and trauma.

I prefer Bendis’ final take on the relationship between Jean and the P.F.:

I don't even like the "I'm not Phoenix" bit. Still an attempt to strip her of her legacy.

That said, Bendis' take was a lot more headstrong, willful and powerful as a superhero and a person than what we get from the writers today, for the vast part.

[Micabe]

Actually it is on Marvel Unlimited, it's just their listing system has glitches...there are two separate entries for X-Men Annual (1970-1994)

Attachment 112857

Attachment 112858

I think this was the first annual I ever purchased. Btw this is where Colossus suffers the injury to his face while in Armored form, causing him to stay Armored until being tricked into letting them heal him in Excalibur #71

I used to really like this issue...I liked the part where she rages at faux Rachel and Nathan while processing how she feels about them...but things have evolved drastically. In just the next year (our time) Jean would formally apologize to Rachel and let her be the first to know of her proposal plans to Scott...and right after, would go on to actually help raise Nathan for 12 years in the future.

As for Mastermind, yeah trying to paint him as sympathetic fails hard, and while it's ok if Jean chooses to forgive him, what annoyed me was her being willing to stay in his mind when he dies, given the consequences she herself could face...in my headcanon, I just say Jean is sure of herself as a telepath that she knows she could survive the trauma, but in story, she's just willing to risk dying for something and someone that isn't worth it.

What ever happened to Calaban?

[Mercury]

I don't even like the "I'm not Phoenix" bit. Still an attempt to strip her of her legacy.

Teenage Jean had never encountered the Phoenix Force, so she was simply speaking the truth. Also, while Cockrum and Claremont may have intended early on for Jean’s evolution into Phoenix to endure and become her legacy, it was not meant to be, at least not in the way some of us wish it had been. Editorial did not want Jean to become a cosmic character, and Byrne played a pivotal role in assuring that. Furthermore, in my opinion, Claremont didn’t adequately flesh out what the Phoenix’s desires were, especially considering the fact that she was being psychically and physically abused and controlled, which he also didn’t address clearly and realistically, so I’m more than fine with the retcon.

Nevertheless, even accepting the retcon, it’s clear that the Phoenix Force duplicated both Jean’s body and essence, which includes her powers at their fullest potential, up to that point in time. Hence why, even when never having bonded with it, she has generated a pink raptor a handful times... After all, she is an Omega Level mutant. Her powers are unlimited and immeasurable. This is underscored by the fact that her vast telepathic and telekinetic abilities make it possible for her to even “resurrect” herself, as evidenced by her transferring her psyche to Emma’s body in the 90s and reconstructing her own body in 2018 after defeating the Poisons.





It’s quite stunning how vast her powers are now, whether or not they are spotlighted by the current writers, a few who are on their way out. “And the cycle begins anew again.” While Jean was irrefutably central to and the inspiration and reason for one of the most iconic arcs in comic book history - nothing can take that away from her - I am feeling increasingly content with her not being defined by or tied to the Phoenix Force. She is already and has always been immeasurably powerful.

That said, Bendis' take was a lot more headstrong, willful and powerful as a superhero and a person than what we get from the writers today, for the vast part.

Bendis’ interpretation is brilliant. It clarified who she is (i.e., strong, assertive, determined, and empathic), redeemed her, and underscored her nearly unlimited abilities. As far as I am concerned, it defines who she is today because it is her. Jordan D. White has made this very clear and no matter how certain current writers render her in specific instances, their fleeting interpretations do not take precedence over his decision and certainly not over established canon.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Meh. Anti-Phoenix is just mad boys being mad about some chick daring to be ostensibly badass. I'm not going to pretend it has merit to appease the Byrnes of the world. It's amazing that she hasn't got her powers back yet. There wasn't even supposed to be a "Phoenix Force" initially.

As for JDW's stock in any interpretation of Jean outside of basic waterd down 90s cartoon/Jim Lee, he probably doesn't have any as she is not a major enough character in that way. He's actually come closer to saying Jean Grey can't do what the teen version did, e.g. the pink form. Because he prefers her to be not as forward and powerful as the teen version.

Also, current interpretations always trump established continuity.

[Micabe]

If someone owns the Marvel/DC: All Access issue 4, can they check if the right panels exist of this Jean vs Superman fight, where she bounces a psychonetic bolt at Superman? I see them on the Internet, but I can’t find where. I assume it’s from issue 4, but I want express confirmation from someone who owns it.

I have the issue and my US edition does not have those frames.

[MechaJeanix]

Over the years I've made peace with the retcon because Inferno largely corrected it, however some writers still kind of ignored it and continued with the full retcon. Inferno revealed that the Phoenix had a portion of Jean's soul (we saw this in Classic X-men where it appeared it took most of her soul and left a spark in the cocoon but later most writers seem to flip it where a spark was merged with Phoenix) so along with copying Jean's body and mind it also had a portion of her soul/consciousness. Phoenix became Jean just like Jean would become the Phoenix. I think that makes for a very intimate relationship.

With the retcon the Phoenix possesses folks but with Jean it actually became her.

The retcon took so much from Jean Grey but over time we saw Jean become Phoenix again and it felt the whole situation had been corrected up until Phoenix Warsong. What a mess it continues to be.

Morrison's Jean is my favorite because it was the perfect balance between just Jean Grey and the Phoenix version of Jean. I loved every second of that run. I felt Morrison gave Jean another "Phoenix Saga" since the phoenix story ran through his entire run (or most of it as a subplot). I was so thankful. I'm old enough to remember on Uncanny X-men.Net when they refused to include any Phoenix history in Jean's bio because they argued Jean was never Phoenix and didn't even have a connection to it. Now they have one of the best Jean bios on the internet and include all the major Phoenix stories in Jean's history.

In X-men Red we had Jean remind another character that she "was apart of it" referring to Dark Phoenix and I think this is the best we can hope for. That Jean was a part of the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga and she was made whole during Inferno when she regained a portion of her consciousness as well as the memories.

I also liked how in the Jean Grey spotlight in X-men Monday on AIPT a writer described Jean as a composite character due to having the memories of Phoenix, Maddie, and Teen Jean. I liked that description and how each of those characters are extensions of Jean (I know that is controversial for the Maddie fans and I do feel bad about that but Phoenix and even Maddie have been described as being extensions and incarnations of Jean multiple times - mostly by Claremont).

[WallStreeter]

While I agree that she is a compassionate character and she forgives people, I think the decision of Lobdell to show her compassion to a villain with that kind of behavior is wrong on many levels. Why would we need a story of a character sowing mercy to an abuser? it's kind of wrong to me. And Lobdell himself harassed women so I don't see the idea behind this story with good eyes.

Agreed with you there. It’s ridiculous for a character to have to visit and abuser on his deathbed and and risk the safety of herself and her teammates.

As for Lobdell, this is probably why he never came back to work at Marvel again. https://www.comicsbeat.com/scott-lob...t-allegations/

[Mercury]

Over the years I've made peace with the retcon because Inferno largely corrected it, however some writers still kind of ignored it and continued with the full retcon. Inferno revealed that the Phoenix had a portion of Jean's soul (we saw this in Classic X-men where it appeared it took most of her soul and left a spark in the cocoon but later most writers seem to flip it where a spark was merged with Phoenix) so along with copying Jean's body and mind it also had a portion of her soul/consciousness. Phoenix became Jean just like Jean would become the Phoenix. I think that makes for a very intimate relationship.

With the retcon the Phoenix possesses folks but with Jean it actually became her.

The retcon took so much from Jean Grey but over time we saw Jean become Phoenix again and it felt the whole situation had been corrected up until Phoenix Warsong. What a mess it continues to be.

Morrison's Jean is my favorite because it was the perfect balance between just Jean Grey and the Phoenix version of Jean. I loved every second of that run. I felt Morrison gave Jean another "Phoenix Saga" since the phoenix story ran through his entire run (or most of it as a subplot). I was so thankful. I'm old enough to remember on Uncanny X-men.Net when they refused to include any Phoenix history in Jean's bio because they argued Jean was never Phoenix and didn't even have a connection to it. Now they have one of the best Jean bios on the internet and include all the major Phoenix stories in Jean's history.

In X-men Red we had Jean remind another character that she "was apart of it" referring to Dark Phoenix and I think this is the best we can hope for. That Jean was a part of the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga and she was made whole during Inferno when she regained a portion of her consciousness as well as the memories.

I also liked how in the Jean Grey spotlight in X-men Monday on AIPT a writer described Jean as a composite character due to having the memories of Phoenix, Maddie, and Teen Jean. I liked that description and how each of those characters are extensions of Jean (I know that is controversial for the Maddie fans and I do feel bad about that but Phoenix and even Maddie have been described as being extensions and incarnations of Jean multiple times - mostly by Claremont).

You’ve made me recall what I wrote on this thread a few weeks ago:



I seriously need to chart and catalogue Jean’s history with and connection to the Phoenix Force, i.e., how it was defined and when/in what issues.

I, too, love Morrison’s Jean. He gave her both a weariness and utterly transcendent quality that is still breathtaking.

[MechaJeanix]

I agree the Lobdell story where Jean forgives MasterMind would not happen today. It is definitely a product of its time. Though I also think it is in Jean's character to show empathy and compassion to those who may not deserve it. I know a lot of folks like this in real life - my mom being one and I'm this way too .. much too forgiving.

I could see Jean doing it because she felt his pain or where he was dying and displayed remorse but I think a lot of people would have trouble understanding how some actions could be forgiven. I see that everyday on the internet. I think we are so addicted to the them vs us mentality and how even us leftists ultimately view people as inherently bad now - just like many religious conservatives (ignoring socialization and culture and saying that person is just an "a-hole" and downplaying societal influences that impact all of us in varying ways ).

Which is another discussion but I see it on twitter a lot where writers or editors get upset on how some writers will give villains complex backstories to explain how they ended up as villains because some people are just bad (makes me think of poor theories about "born criminal" or whatever). Of course people have many motivations for their behavior but those of us who work with justice involved populations can tell you a lot of people in our jails and prisons have experienced a lot of trauma and a lot of childhood trauma. It doesn't justify bad behavior but our histories (and socialization) can have explanatory value.

Look at Dark Phoenix and our discussion on how Jean/Phoenix was manipulated and violated. It gets forgotten all the time and now in the comics it is reduced to Jean "not being able to control her big emotions" Ugh! It is very frustrating that what the Hellfire Club did to her is almost always minimized and we get the narrative that Jean couldn't control the power (but Rachel could - though Rachel had a few dark moments herself .. almost killing some humans bothering Kitty, forcibly taking the lifeforce of the X-men, about to reboot reality to defeat the beyonder, trying to kill Selene - not to mention her dark days before she became Phoenix.

I better stop now I'm annoying myself at this point lol

[MechaJeanix]

You’ve made me recall what I wrote on this thread a few weeks ago:



I seriously need to chart and catalogue Jean’s history with and connection to the Phoenix Force, i.e., how it was defined and when/in what issues.

I, too, love Morrison’s Jean. He gave her both a weariness and utterly transcendent quality that is still breathtaking.

Thanks for sharing! I agree 100% on Morrison's Jean.

Even though the Phoenix has become a mess and a total train wreck I will be happy as long as they continue to respect that Jean was a phoenix and that she has a close and important connection. I loved in the Teen Jean solo series where the Phoenix itself explains to Teen Jean that Jean was the perfect host/vessel because some fans still argue otherwise (usually going with Rachel and even Leah Williams once on twitter made the argument it was Rachel even though Dennis Hopeless had cleared that up in his Jean Grey run ... but we'll see what other writers do with the Phoenix and with Echo).

[mike7171]

Over the years I've made peace with the retcon because Inferno largely corrected it, however some writers still kind of ignored it and continued with the full retcon. Inferno revealed that the Phoenix had a portion of Jean's soul (we saw this in Classic X-men where it appeared it took most of her soul and left a spark in the cocoon but later most writers seem to flip it where a spark was merged with Phoenix) so along with copying Jean's body and mind it also had a portion of her soul/consciousness. Phoenix became Jean just like Jean would become the Phoenix. I think that makes for a very intimate relationship.

With the retcon the Phoenix possesses folks but with Jean it actually became her.

The retcon took so much from Jean Grey but over time we saw Jean become Phoenix again and it felt the whole situation had been corrected up until Phoenix Warsong. What a mess it continues to be.

Morrison's Jean is my favorite because it was the perfect balance between just Jean Grey and the Phoenix version of Jean. I loved every second of that run. I felt Morrison gave Jean another "Phoenix Saga" since the phoenix story ran through his entire run (or most of it as a subplot). I was so thankful. I'm old enough to remember on Uncanny X-men.Net when they refused to include any Phoenix history in Jean's bio because they argued Jean was never Phoenix and didn't even have a connection to it. Now they have one of the best Jean bios on the internet and include all the major Phoenix stories in Jean's history.

In X-men Red we had Jean remind another character that she "was apart of it" referring to Dark Phoenix and I think this is the best we can hope for. That Jean was a part of the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga and she was made whole during Inferno when she regained a portion of her consciousness as well as the memories.

I also liked how in the Jean Grey spotlight in X-men Monday on AIPT a writer described Jean as a composite character due to having the memories of Phoenix, Maddie, and Teen Jean. I liked that description and how each of those characters are extensions of Jean (I know that is controversial for the Maddie fans and I do feel bad about that but Phoenix and even Maddie have been described as being extensions and incarnations of Jean multiple times - mostly by Claremont).

Although in XMen Red she stated and the phoenix are separate, she did make a come back to say that the Phoenix was actually holding her back, that makes me think that whatever feats Jean has done in 616, that's nothing compared to what she can really do now that she has severed ties with the Phoenix. So am hopeful that "idea" sticks, plus the Teen Jean skills is just lying dormant waiting for a proper storyline to unleash it.

[WallStreeter]

In X-men Red we had Jean remind another character that she "was apart of it" referring to Dark Phoenix and I think this is the best we can hope for. That Jean was a part of the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga and she was made whole during Inferno when she regained a portion of her consciousness as well as the memories.

I also liked how in the Jean Grey spotlight in X-men Monday on AIPT a writer described Jean as a composite character due to having the memories of Phoenix, Maddie, and Teen Jean. I liked that description and how each of those characters are extensions of Jean (I know that is controversial for the Maddie fans and I do feel bad about that but Phoenix and even Maddie have been described as being extensions and incarnations of Jean multiple times - mostly by Claremont).

Obviously, Jean was Phoenix during the Morrison run. Probably she was put in the Marvel Girl mini as a way of ignoring both Jeen and Phoenix.

But don’t worry, Hickman is leaving. Lol I don’t think White strongly cares that much about her power levels or Phoenix. Hickman just did not want Jean as a part of his master plan. She’s in Duggar’s hands now and hopefully he does good work there.

[WallStreeter]

Thanks for sharing! I agree 100% on Morrison's Jean.

Even though the Phoenix has become a mess and a total train wreck I will be happy as long as they continue to respect that Jean was a phoenix and that she has a close and important connection. I loved in the Teen Jean solo series where the Phoenix itself explains to Teen Jean that Jean was the perfect host/vessel because some fans still argue otherwise (usually going with Rachel and even Leah Williams once on twitter made the argument it was Rachel even though Dennis Hopeless had cleared that up in his Jean Grey run ... but we'll see what other writers do with the Phoenix and with Echo).

Aaron is writing the Avengers down into the ground. It’s basically because some actors left the MCU that for now, another Avengers movie can’t happen because actors like Chris Evans, Robert Downey Junior, Scarlet Johannsen, are gone. So Aaron has changed abd retconned so much stuff it’s like bad fan fiction and if they currently cared about the Avengers Comics Editorial would stop them.

I’m saying basically Echo Phoenix is just another Aaron disaster and won’t last. No sign she has any popularity. Jew needs to rio it out if her and reclaim what’s hers. Until that happens let Duggan develop Jean more.

[WallStreeter]

Leah does know Jean is powerful. Jean shielded everyone from Magneto’s attack. She probably asked Rachel to accompany her as Jean was focused on keeping Magneto unconscious.

Remember Xavier himself did not want to psychically attack Magneto’s mind alone. He needed help from Jean. That Jean wants help from Emma is not surprising.

[Mercury]

I’ll respond to other posts later - I have so much work to get done, it hurts. ::crying:: - but wanted to reply to this:

Although in XMen Red she stated and the phoenix are separate, she did make a come back to say that the Phoenix was actually holding her back, that makes me think that whatever feats Jean has done in 616, that's nothing compared to what she can really do now that she has severed ties with the Phoenix. So am hopeful that "idea" sticks, plus the Teen Jean skills is just lying dormant waiting for a proper storyline to unleash it.

Exactly. Even Mags knew when to quit and not to tango with Jean…