Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Omega_DCD]

***PREFACE*** Sorry in advance if this post reads in a very disjointed manner...I've had to start/stop many times over a busy morning, lost/regain trains of thoughts, etc.

My issue with the retcon goes well beyond the at-once issue of stripping Jean of her true potential. That was long corrected throughout the 90s, culminating with her being revealed to be an Omega Level mutant in the year 2000. My issue is how the retcon stripped Jean of so much development and personal relationships. The Phoenix years represented her growth into adulthood/womanhood.

These years either started or RE-ENFORCED many personal relationships. Her bonds with the new team, Kurt, Peter, Logan, Sean, and especially Ororo...new friendships outside the X-Men such as Misty Knight...relying on the comfort, love and strength from her extended family on Muir Island(Moira, whom she's known since childhood...Lorna, Alex, and a new friend, Jaime) to process the grief when she thought Scott and the other X-Men had perished...her evolving and complex relationship with her mentor, Charles Xavier...her first time meeting Kitty Pryde, with Jean providing her much needed comfort, a moment Bendis even recognized and paid homage to in reverse with Kitty and Teen Jean...Jean first time meeting Dazzler...and needless to say, the further development of her relationship with Scott.

Jean has many times been called the heart of the X-Men. It's not just because of her empathy, but also because of how she's bonded to so many of them. It's what makes that moment at the end of Phoenix Endsong so poignant. Take away the Phoenix years from Jean and when does she actually meet Kitty? In Excalibur #41 with Kitty yelling at Jean? Or Dazzler? How close was she to the new X-Men members? Yes she and Storm became fast friends, but I don't think it reached the point of sisterhood until during the Phoenix saga..during the time Storm was the first to offer Jean her life-force to help heal the M'Kraan Crystal.
A bond that would again manifest in trying to fight for Jean's soul as she became Dark Phoenix, and for her life against the Shi'ar. Peter grew to love Jean as well, such so that he too was willing to die for her, but also ultimately pulled his punch to only stop her without killing her.

With the retcon, from Jean's perspective, there is a big time jump from Krakoa/Sentinel attack/Lang/Shuttle....she barely knows them, then they're on separate teams for a good chunk of time.

Jean being dead was bad enough...being divorced almost entirely from the pivotal time beforehand was detrimental for me. I clung to every story element that sought to course-correct the retcon in some way or fashion.

Now going forward, with all the misuse and abuse that has been done to the core Phoenix mythos, I'm enjoying her story time away from the Phoenix...but I want Jean to own those early years because there was a lot more to it than "OMG AWESOME POWAH!/OH NO BROCCOLI PEOPLE GO BOOM!"

And on a broader note, if we say Phoenix/Jean was not really Jean...then what does that say about everyone we're reading about now that has been resurrected by The Five, including Jean herself?

[Mercury]

***PREFACE*** Sorry in advance if this post reads in a very disjointed manner...I've had to start/stop many times over a busy morning, lost/regain trains of thoughts, etc.

My issue with the retcon goes well beyond the at-once issue of stripping Jean of her true potential. That was long corrected throughout the 90s, culminating with her being revealed to be an Omega Level mutant in the year 2000. My issue is how the retcon stripped Jean of so much development and personal relationships. The Phoenix years represented her growth into adulthood/womanhood.

These years either started or RE-ENFORCED many personal relationships. Her bonds with the new team, Kurt, Peter, Logan, Sean, and especially Ororo...new friendships outside the X-Men such as Misty Knight...relying on the comfort, love and strength from her extended family on Muir Island(Moira, whom she's known since childhood...Lorna, Alex, and a new friend, Jaime) to process the grief when she thought Scott and the other X-Men had perished...her evolving and complex relationship with her mentor, Charles Xavier...her first time meeting Kitty Pryde, with Jean providing her much needed comfort, a moment Bendis even recognized and paid homage to in reverse with Kitty and Teen Jean...Jean first time meeting Dazzler...and needless to say, the further development of her relationship with Scott.

Jean has many times been called the heart of the X-Men. It's not just because of her empathy, but also because of how she's bonded to so many of them. It's what makes that moment at the end of Phoenix Endsong so poignant. Take away the Phoenix years from Jean and when does she actually meet Kitty? In Excalibur #41 with Kitty yelling at Jean? Or Dazzler? How close was she to the new X-Men members? Yes she and Storm became fast friends, but I don't think it reached the point of sisterhood until during the Phoenix saga..during the time Storm was the first to offer Jean her life-force to help heal the M'Kraan Crystal.
A bond that would again manifest in trying to fight for Jean's soul as she became Dark Phoenix, and for her life against the Shi'ar. Peter grew to love Jean as well, such so that he too was willing to die for her, but also ultimately pulled his punch to only stop her without killing her.

With the retcon, from Jean's perspective, there is a big time jump from Krakoa/Sentinel attack/Lang/Shuttle....she barely knows them, then they're on separate teams for a good chunk of time.

Jean being dead was bad enough...being divorced almost entirely from the pivotal time beforehand was detrimental for me. I clung to every story element that sought to course-correct the retcon in some way or fashion.

Now going forward, with all the misuse and abuse that has been done to the core Phoenix mythos, I'm enjoying her story time away from the Phoenix...but I want Jean to own those early years because there was a lot more to it than "OMG AWESOME POWAH!/OH NO BROCCOLI PEOPLE GO BOOM!"

And on a broader note, if we say Phoenix/Jean was not really Jean...then what does that say about everyone we're reading about now that has been resurrected by The Five, including Jean herself?

So much delicious food for thought, Omega_DCD. I am in the middle of literally five different projects as I type this - I keep getting distracted and clicking over to Twitter or here, and I really need to f-ing stop - so I can't type up a thorough response right now, but I will be sure to respond to your post and others' replies as soon as finish some of this work.

Also, if you could help me track down and catalog the various instances, by book and issue #, Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force has been retconned and/or streamlined, I would greatly appreciate it! I need to be able to weave all of these threads together for myself.

Anyway, I love everything you pointed out!

[Omega_DCD]

Leah does know Jean is powerful. Jean shielded everyone from Magneto’s attack. She probably asked Rachel to accompany her as Jean was focused on keeping Magneto unconscious.

Remember Xavier himself did not want to psychically attack Magneto’s mind alone. He needed help from Jean. That Jean wants help from Emma is not surprising.

Xavier needed Jean's help because the psionic exoskeleton he was using was taking up the majority of his power...before they leave when he explains why he's leaving with such a small group, he says if he had a choice. Jean would also stay behind...but needs her because of the suit...and as shown, at the end when he was furious at Magneto, he stops powering the suit, goes limp, hanging off of Magneto while grabbing him by the collar, and uses a huge amount of psionic power to try to shut down Magneto's mind

[Grinning Soul]

***PREFACE*** Sorry in advance if this post reads in a very disjointed manner...I've had to start/stop many times over a busy morning, lost/regain trains of thoughts, etc.

My issue with the retcon goes well beyond the at-once issue of stripping Jean of her true potential. That was long corrected throughout the 90s, culminating with her being revealed to be an Omega Level mutant in the year 2000. My issue is how the retcon stripped Jean of so much development and personal relationships. The Phoenix years represented her growth into adulthood/womanhood.

These years either started or RE-ENFORCED many personal relationships. Her bonds with the new team, Kurt, Peter, Logan, Sean, and especially Ororo...new friendships outside the X-Men such as Misty Knight...relying on the comfort, love and strength from her extended family on Muir Island(Moira, whom she's known since childhood...Lorna, Alex, and a new friend, Jaime) to process the grief when she thought Scott and the other X-Men had perished...her evolving and complex relationship with her mentor, Charles Xavier...her first time meeting Kitty Pryde, with Jean providing her much needed comfort, a moment Bendis even recognized and paid homage to in reverse with Kitty and Teen Jean...Jean first time meeting Dazzler...and needless to say, the further development of her relationship with Scott.

Jean has many times been called the heart of the X-Men. It's not just because of her empathy, but also because of how she's bonded to so many of them. It's what makes that moment at the end of Phoenix Endsong so poignant. Take away the Phoenix years from Jean and when does she actually meet Kitty? In Excalibur #41 with Kitty yelling at Jean? Or Dazzler? How close was she to the new X-Men members? Yes she and Storm became fast friends, but I don't think it reached the point of sisterhood until during the Phoenix saga..during the time Storm was the first to offer Jean her life-force to help heal the M'Kraan Crystal.
A bond that would again manifest in trying to fight for Jean's soul as she became Dark Phoenix, and for her life against the Shi'ar. Peter grew to love Jean as well, such so that he too was willing to die for her, but also ultimately pulled his punch to only stop her without killing her.

With the retcon, from Jean's perspective, there is a big time jump from Krakoa/Sentinel attack/Lang/Shuttle....she barely knows them, then they're on separate teams for a good chunk of time.

Jean being dead was bad enough...being divorced almost entirely from the pivotal time beforehand was detrimental for me. I clung to every story element that sought to course-correct the retcon in some way or fashion.

Now going forward, with all the misuse and abuse that has been done to the core Phoenix mythos, I'm enjoying her story time away from the Phoenix...but I want Jean to own those early years because there was a lot more to it than "OMG AWESOME POWAH!/OH NO BROCCOLI PEOPLE GO BOOM!"

And on a broader note, if we say Phoenix/Jean was not really Jean...then what does that say about everyone we're reading about now that has been resurrected by The Five, including Jean herself?

I totally agree.

I've written before how I interpret the whole debacle with the Phoenix and Jean and her death. I don't really have the concentration to go into it again so I'll keep it short.

The Phoenix Force, sensing a part of Jean resisted its help, copied not only her body but her soul/essence. So it wasn't just emulating Jean. Jean was there the whole time. And yes, there were two Jeans, then (body and soul/essence) at the same time. One with the Phoenix. One at the bottom of Jamaica bay, unconscious, healing.

The fact the Phoenix Force tries to "return" something to Jean is indication to me that whatever that is it's more than memories. Why would the Jean in coocon want those memories if it had rejected it in the first place? It's because that something is Jean's essence and it had to be merged into one again. [EDIT: Otherwise, imagine what would happen to her soul? Move on while another copy is about to wake up? It had to be merged into one again. But Jean rejected it again and it ended up animating her clone into life instead. The very fact it looked for another of Jean's body is also another indication that Jean's soul was there].

That's how I reconcile all that mess.

[PyroFN]

I have the issue and my US edition does not have those frames.

Interesting. Does that mean other editions have those missing frames?

[WallStreeter]

Xavier needed Jean's help because the psionic exoskeleton he was using was taking up the majority of his power...before they leave when he explains why he's leaving with such a small group, he says if he had a choice. Jean would also stay behind...but needs her because of the suit...and as shown, at the end when he was furious at Magneto, he stops powering the suit, goes limp, hanging off of Magneto while grabbing him by the collar, and uses a huge amount of psionic power to try to shut down Magneto's mind

With no exo-skeleton previously Xavier had great difficulty in breaking Magneto’s psychic defenses.

[Omega_DCD]

With no exo-skeleton previously Xavier had great difficulty in breaking Magneto’s psychic defenses.

In the previous chapter of the same crossover(Fatal Attractions, UXM 304), Xavier forcibly commandeered Magneto and his powers to fling his Avalon station, which was threatening to crash into Westchester as the fight prolonged, into space

[Grinning Soul]

MechaJeanix and Pyro: I don't want to derail Emma's thread, so maybe we discuss Jean's TP skills here?

I agree with MechaJeanix that Jean is highly skilled too. Just because her feats are usually more jaw-dropping in terms of raw power, it doesn't mean she isn't skilled.

On the top of my head:

- Jean recently shield every mind in New York. It takes enormous raw power? Yes! But also skill. You have to find them individually and keep shielding in each of them, while you’re shielding your own mind under a lot of strain.

- Jean created the Black Box in Scott's mind that even a very skillful telepath like Emma can't breach. This is pure skill from Jean, because when Emma find out about the Black Box, Jean is dead. So it's not her raw power at work.

- Jean separated Apocalypse and Scott's mind, which were merged and deeply buried. That is not something you can just hammer through. It requires *a lot* of skill.

- During Morrison's run, Jean contained the huge mind of a powerful telepath like Charles, split it, then merged it back. He says later he only lost a few memories. Again: that takes a LOT of raw power, but also a lot of skill.

Emma has never done anything like that either. Does it mean that Jean is more skillful? No. It means they do things differently because they think differently. And it would be the same if we compared them to Xavier.

All of them are highly skillful, incredibly powerful telepaths and those metaphors don't serve for anything other than creating untrufthful, harmful echo chambers.

Please, let's not feed that.

[Daedra]

In the previous chapter of the same crossover(Fatal Attractions, UXM 304), Xavier forcibly commandeered Magneto and his powers to fling his Avalon station, which was threatening to crash into Westchester as the fight prolonged, into space

Lol imagine if they allowed Jean (the omega level tp) to pull a feat like this

[MechaJeanix]

MechaJeanix and Pyro: I don't want to derail Emma's thread, so maybe we discuss Jean's TP skills here?

I agree with MechaJeanix that Jean is highly skilled too. Just because her feats are usually more jaw-dropping in terms of raw power, it doesn't mean she isn't skilled.

On the top of my head:

- Jean recently shield every mind in New York. It takes enormous raw power? Yes! But also skill. You have to find them individually and keep shielding in each of them, while you’re shielding your own mind under a lot of strain.

- Jean created the Black Box in Scott's mind that even a very skillful telepath like Emma can't breach. This is pure skill from Jean, because when Emma find out about the Black Box, Jean is dead. So it's not her raw power at work.

- Jean separated Apocalypse and Scott's mind, which were merged and deeply buried. That is not something you can just hammer through. It requires *a lot* of skill.

- During Morrison's run, Jean contained the huge mind of a powerful telepath like Charles, split it, then merged it back. He says later he only lost a few memories. Again: that takes a LOT of raw power, but also a lot of skill.

Emma has never done anything like that either. Does it mean that Jean is more skillful? No. It means they do things differently because they think differently. And it would be the same if we compared them to Xavier.

All of them are highly skillful, incredibly powerful telepaths and those metaphors don't serve for anything other than creating untrufthful, harmful echo chambers.

Please, let's not feed that.

I agree. Obviously Jean, Emma, and Xavier are very powerful and skilled psychic mutants. I definitely do not want to do an Emma vs Jean thing. I've read enough of that. Maybe I'm not accurately conveying what I want to say but I just thought the scalpel vs sledgehammer comparison just isn't adequate for both Emma and Jean. I think that description is just too limiting for each character. Its funny but part of my determination about Jean's use of telepathy comes from reviewing the respect threads that Pyro contributes to on comicvine (those threads where fans highlight "feats" etc.) - coupled with my own reading from the books since I started reading in 1992.

Jean used a lot of telepathic skill when she helped Arize or whatever his name was during the Gold Team years (it was an annual) and she also helped Wolverine (with Xavier's help) with his memories. She read a memory from Candy Southern of a moment Candy had while Candy was barely conscious (another Gold Team issue and Candy's last appearance - a pre- Phalanx covenant issue). Of course there are other examples of Jean showing great telepathic skill (just like there are with Emma).

I've been trying to think of examples of Emma being a psychic sledgehammer and I think of her first fight with Phoenix! Emma used a powerful psi bolt that brought down the house. I think of Uncanny 281 where she's tearing through a young woman's mind so much that the psychic backlash hurts Jean.

Again I just find the description too limiting but it is becoming pervasive and all it took was Leah Williams sharing her idea on social media. Ah well!

[Grinning Soul]

I agree. Obviously Jean, Emma, and Xavier are very powerful and skilled psychic mutants. I definitely do not want to do an Emma vs Jean thing. I've read enough of that. Maybe I'm not accurately conveying what I want to say but I just thought the scalpel vs sledgehammer comparison just isn't adequate for both Emma and Jean. I think that description is just too limiting for each character. Its funny but part of my determination about Jean's use of telepathy comes from reviewing the respect threads that Pyro contributes to on comicvine (those threads where fans highlight "feats" etc.) - coupled with my own reading from the books since I started reading in 1992.

Jean used a lot of telepathic skill when she helped Arize or whatever his name was during the Gold Team years (it was an annual) and she also helped Wolverine (with Xavier's help) with his memories. She read a memory from Candy Southern of a moment Candy had while Candy was barely conscious (another Gold Team issue and Candy's last appearance - a pre- Phalanx covenant issue). Of course there are other examples of Jean showing great telepathic skill (just like there are with Emma).

I've been trying to think of examples of Emma being a psychic sledgehammer and I think of her first fight with Phoenix! Emma used a powerful psi bolt that brought down the house. I think of Uncanny 281 where she's tearing through a young woman's mind so much that the psychic backlash hurts Jean.

Again I just find the description too limiting but it is becoming pervasive and all it took was Leah Williams sharing her idea on social media. Ah well!

No, dear. You conveyed what you meant very well and I agree with you. :)

[WallStreeter]

In the previous chapter of the same crossover(Fatal Attractions, UXM 304), Xavier forcibly commandeered Magneto and his powers to fling his Avalon station, which was threatening to crash into Westchester as the fight prolonged, into space

Xavier never could have done that when Claremont was writing. He was highly resistant to psychic attacks in those days.

[WallStreeter]

To me it’s silly different writers and fans will have different interpretations of character’s abilities

[Omega_DCD]

Xavier never could have done that when Claremont was writing. He was highly resistant to psychic attacks in those days.

Yeah but crashing a funeral...especially of someone Xavier felt great personal guilt in not being able to save from the Legacy virus...Xavier was on the cusp of No F**KS given mode (later known as Onslaught) and as the caption says, he was not holding back in this moment.

[Su_Whisterfield]

To me it’s silly different writers and fans will have different interpretations of character’s abilities

I am completely stunned that Marvel doesn’t have a bible for every principle character. They should have an intern who’s job is to collate and keep updating correct history, physical attributes (how often have we seen characters whitewashed?) and abilities. Writers should be writing stories, not reading Wikipedia for every character they want to use.