Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

I mean Jean is one to go in w/ raw force unless she needs to use skill.Opposite to someone like Spider-man who tries to hold back and use his webs, etc.
Emma is skill because compared to the others that's what she has.She can't out power them.

So like Jean is a sledgehammer because she can be, but she can do the scalpel while Emma is a scalpel but has more tricky techinques than Jean being the White Queen and all.

[Spiderfan001]

I am completely stunned that Marvel doesn’t have a bible for every principle character. They should have an intern who’s job is to collate and keep updating correct history, physical attributes (how often have we seen characters whitewashed?) and abilities. Writers should be writing stories, not reading Wikipedia for every character they want to use.

Fr fr, need to start a petition or something for this

[PyroFN]

MechaJeanix and Pyro: I don't want to derail Emma's thread, so maybe we discuss Jean's TP skills here?

I agree with MechaJeanix that Jean is highly skilled too. Just because her feats are usually more jaw-dropping in terms of raw power, it doesn't mean she isn't skilled.

On the top of my head:

- Jean recently shield every mind in New York. It takes enormous raw power? Yes! But also skill. You have to find them individually and keep shielding in each of them, while you’re shielding your own mind under a lot of strain.

- Jean created the Black Box in Scott's mind that even a very skillful telepath like Emma can't breach. This is pure skill from Jean, because when Emma find out about the Black Box, Jean is dead. So it's not her raw power at work.

- Jean separated Apocalypse and Scott's mind, which were merged and deeply buried. That is not something you can just hammer through. It requires *a lot* of skill.

- During Morrison's run, Jean contained the huge mind of a powerful telepath like Charles, split it, then merged it back. He says later he only lost a few memories. Again: that takes a LOT of raw power, but also a lot of skill.

Emma has never done anything like that either. Does it mean that Jean is more skillful? No. It means they do things differently because they think differently. And it would be the same if we compared them to Xavier.

All of them are highly skillful, incredibly powerful telepaths and those metaphors don't serve for anything other than creating untrufthful, harmful echo chambers.

Please, let's not feed that.

I agree there is skill involved with Jean. My claim never was Jean is not on Emma’s level in skill. My point was what Leah means. Emma’s best facet is her skill. Jean’s is her power.

In that aspect, Leah is correct in that comparison. This does not mean Leah only believes Jean is all power or Emma is all skill. Such a notion is foolish because she is on a writing team that completely contradicts that notion. Note what Excalibur, written by a close friend and writer, Tini Howard says about Emma’s capability:



Leah may be an individual, but she works on a team of writers for the same world. There must be unity in ideas to work with this kind of environment. So, I don’t subscribe to the idea that Leah’s quote is absolute. It is relative, describing what both are best at. Not what both are only capable of.

[Omega_DCD]

Jean's skilled telepathy feats? Don't mind if I do:

In no particular order:
(A few from Eve of Destruction)

Completely over-wrote Frenzy's personality with a new one to assist in the mission to rescue Xavier from Magneto

Trained a team of new recruits with time-compressed telepathic danger room sessions

Projected an elaborate illusion in Magneto's mind of him killing Dazzler...with illusions, the devil is on the details, and against a mind like Magneto's, they must be nothing short of immaculate. Bonus points for doing it through his helmet as well

Psychic surgery with Psylocke...to determine the extent of which she and Kwannon had been split and merged

Freeing Binary's mind from alien inciters without frying her synapses, while also cutting off her link to an energy source (a white hole) and protecting herself from open space and a massive energy Shockwave

Detecting and psychometrically coalescing and purging remnant pools of psychic hate from the mansion, left behind by mansion, after Operation Zero Tolerance...as Jean herself says "Some imagination and a lot of telepathic know-how, and I pretty much obliterate his stain from the grounds"

Bloodties...Exodus is stopped in no small part due to Jean constantly probing his defenses(undetected) and relaying that info to Xavier(also undetected), allowing Xavier to coordinate with Black Knight to strike at just the right moment

Helped Jessica Jones out of a coma and with her trauma from the Purple Man, and also helped Jessica to develop a psychic defense trigger

In the X-Mem Red Annual, she's able to partition parts of her attention into the minds of others...a student at the Xavier Institute, a young man she confronted earlier, and even an animal mind to keep watch over Gaby...all while linked with Black Bolt's mind

Jean commandeered Legion's telepathic personality to psi-link the teams of X-Factor, X-Force and The New Warriors(while her own TP was barely re-emerging)

*Edit*
Tapped into baby Nathan's telepathy to psychically bring Scott onto the astral plane, undetected, while distracting Apocalypse's astral form and protecting Nathan...Scott is then able to attack Apocalypse from behind

[Daedra]

I mean Jean is one to go in w/ raw force unless she needs to use skill.Opposite to someone like Spider-man who tries to hold back and use his webs, etc.
Emma is skill because compared to the others that's what she has.She can't out power them.

So like Jean is a sledgehammer because she can be, but she can do the scalpel while Emma is a scalpel but has more tricky techinques than Jean being the White Queen and all.

Jean is always holding back, I feel like your description does not fit her at all nor it is reflected in her comics portrayal.

[D.Z]

Wouldn't be surprised that Moira's last life is meant to be the canon we read pre Hickman.

Marvel just chooses to whatever they want since the last decade. That Thor AXE stuff contradicted previous Thor stuff.

[Mercury]

Jean's skilled telepathy feats? Don't mind if I do:

In no particular order:
(A few from Eve of Destruction)

Completely over-wrote Frenzy's personality with a new one to assist in the mission to rescue Xavier from Magneto

Trained a team of new recruits with time-compressed telepathic danger room sessions

Projected an elaborate illusion in Magneto's mind of him killing Dazzler...with illusions, the devil is on the details, and against a mind like Magneto's, they must be nothing short of immaculate. Bonus points for doing it through his helmet as well

Psychic surgery with Psylocke...to determine the extent of which she and Kwannon had been split and merged

Freeing Binary's mind from alien inciters without frying her synapses, while also cutting off her link to an energy source (a white hole) and protecting herself from open space and a massive energy Shockwave

Detecting and psychometrically coalescing and purging remnant pools of psychic hate from the mansion, left behind by mansion, after Operation Zero Tolerance...as Jean herself says "Some imagination and a lot of telepathic know-how, and I pretty much obliterate his stain from the grounds"

Bloodties...Exodus is stopped in no small part due to Jean constantly probing his defenses(undetected) and relaying that info to Xavier(also undetected), allowing Xavier to coordinate with Black Knight to strike at just the right moment

Helped Jessica Jones out of a coma and with her trauma from the Purple Man, and also helped Jessica to develop a psychic defense trigger

In the X-Mem Red Annual, she's able to partition parts of her attention into the minds of others...a student at the Xavier Institute, a young man she confronted earlier, and even an animal mind to keep watch over Gaby...all while linked with Black Bolt's mind

Jean commandeered Legion's telepathic personality to psi-link the teams of X-Factor, X-Force and The New Warriors(while her own TP was barely re-emerging)

*Edit*
Tapped into baby Nathan's telepathy to psychically bring Scott onto the astral plane, undetected, while distracting Apocalypse's astral form and protecting Nathan...Scott is then able to attack Apocalypse from behind

Popped back in for two seconds.

Feed me, Omega_DCD. Feed me more.

[Grinning Soul]

There is no objective way to measure the skill of a character and you can't compare feats because they normally do very different things.

So this analogy serves for nothing other than to create silly misconceptions.

The idea that Jean would go with blunt force and traumatize a mind is beyond absurd. She's the most caring and careful telepath around. But this sledgehammer stupidity brings about this kind of silly imagery that does not compute to the skill of the character, her personality or her disposition towards her own power.

So we can, please, not strengthen it? It's a really bad analogy.

[Phoenixx9]

I've been trying to think of examples of Emma being a psychic sledgehammer and I think of her first fight with Phoenix! Emma used a powerful psi bolt that brought down the house. I think of Uncanny 281 where she's tearing through a young woman's mind so much that the psychic backlash hurts Jean.
Ah well!

CORRECTION: Emma wishes she could bring a house down, lol. Emma fired a bolt at Jean to get her to stop absorbing her lifeforce. Period. She did not bring the house down. Jean freed and gathered a weakened Storm and safely flew them to the topside, wherein the PF Effect blasted the house to smithereens as they resurfaced.

Jean is an empath, a psi-sensitive. Of course a young woman in pain, especially mentally, would hurt Jean because Jean is so powerful. However, Jean can easily shield herself from other people's thoughts, pain, etc. This was just an example of Jean needing to do so because she is so powerful that she can be sensitive to the mental pain of those around her. This is not a power example of emma's but of Jean for shutting it out.

[D.Z]

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Red

[Grinning Soul]

Jean's skilled telepathy feats? Don't mind if I do:

In no particular order:
(A few from Eve of Destruction)

Completely over-wrote Frenzy's personality with a new one to assist in the mission to rescue Xavier from Magneto

Trained a team of new recruits with time-compressed telepathic danger room sessions

Projected an elaborate illusion in Magneto's mind of him killing Dazzler...with illusions, the devil is on the details, and against a mind like Magneto's, they must be nothing short of immaculate. Bonus points for doing it through his helmet as well

Psychic surgery with Psylocke...to determine the extent of which she and Kwannon had been split and merged

Freeing Binary's mind from alien inciters without frying her synapses, while also cutting off her link to an energy source (a white hole) and protecting herself from open space and a massive energy Shockwave

Detecting and psychometrically coalescing and purging remnant pools of psychic hate from the mansion, left behind by mansion, after Operation Zero Tolerance...as Jean herself says "Some imagination and a lot of telepathic know-how, and I pretty much obliterate his stain from the grounds"

Bloodties...Exodus is stopped in no small part due to Jean constantly probing his defenses(undetected) and relaying that info to Xavier(also undetected), allowing Xavier to coordinate with Black Knight to strike at just the right moment

Helped Jessica Jones out of a coma and with her trauma from the Purple Man, and also helped Jessica to develop a psychic defense trigger

In the X-Mem Red Annual, she's able to partition parts of her attention into the minds of others...a student at the Xavier Institute, a young man she confronted earlier, and even an animal mind to keep watch over Gaby...all while linked with Black Bolt's mind

Jean commandeered Legion's telepathic personality to psi-link the teams of X-Factor, X-Force and The New Warriors(while her own TP was barely re-emerging)

*Edit*
Tapped into baby Nathan's telepathy to psychically bring Scott onto the astral plane, undetected, while distracting Apocalypse's astral form and protecting Nathan...Scott is then able to attack Apocalypse from behind

Thanks. I thought of adding the last stuff with Nathan's telepathy.

She also uses Psylocke's telepathy while hers is locked away. So... that's her own raw power too?

Honestly... comparing their skill is ridiculous. Both are extraordinarily skillful. Same with Charles. They operate differently because they have very different personalities, they approach problems differently. That's all.

[Mercury]

In Hickman's definition of an Omega Level Mutant - "A mutant whose dominant power [i.e., ability] is deemed to register - or reach - an undefinable upper limit" - the operative words are "undefinable upper limit." It can be deduced that "upper limit" refers to both the quantity, i.e., scope, and quality, i.e., skill, of a mutant's dominant power, i.e., ability, which, in Jean's case, are "undefinable."

That being said, at a certain point one's skill is dependent upon one's scope of knowledge and ability.

Now, I really must get back to these damn spreadsheets...

[Mercury]

One more thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe one telepathic skill Jean has that neither Xavier nor Emma possesses is psychic energy absorption, aka, psychic siphoning, the ability to absorb psychic energy from others and utilize it in myriad ways, including to increase one's psychic energy.

[Daedra]

One more thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe one telepathic skill Jean has that neither Xavier nor Emma possesses is psychic energy absorption, aka, psychic siphoning, the ability to absorb psychic energy from others and utilize it in myriad ways, including to increase one's psychic energy.

Haven’t you heard? she doesn’t do that anymore

[Saturius]

We've seen Emma absorb ambient psychic energy in the air to psi blasts people. Exodus also has absorbed psychic energy from others to empower himself, akin to a psychic vampire. Although he has a thousand ridiculous powers so I don't know if he still has that ability or not. Don't believe Xavier has though. Jean definitely has been the most varied with the ability.