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  1. #6856
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    There is no objective way to measure the skill of a character and you can't compare feats because they normally do very different things.
    This is something I don’t agree with. Skill/Experience (both are interchangeable) is a very important aspect that determines how deadly you are as a psi. Power and will are the other two aspects.

    The most prime example is the conversation comparing Rachel to Emma Frost. It’s also why Xavier isn’t left out in the dust completely by Jean’s overall power as an Omega. Again, it’s also scans like these for why Emma is basically the poster girl of skill



    The Phoenix Force itself even attests to this idea that skill is so much of an important aspect that Xavier’s confrontation with Dark Phoenix ended with his victory by a combination of Jean Grey’s assistance and his own skill.



    Skill is very much measurable. It is in equal parts what makes someone like Xavier, Betsy, or Emma an omega class telepath, which are the top class of telepaths with a combination of power and skill that puts them at the top of all telepaths on the planet. Jean Grey and Rachel are also in this class category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    So this analogy serves for nothing other than to create silly misconceptions.

    The idea that Jean would go with blunt force and traumatize a mind is beyond absurd.

    She's the most caring and careful telepath around. But this sledgehammer stupidity brings about this kind of silly imagery that does not compute to the skill of the character, her personality or her disposition towards her own power.
    That is not what the quote means. I can own a sledgehammer and not have need to destroy an entire household with it. It is a tool, when expertly used, can be used to effectively drive a nail or stake into the ground to build a tent as it could tear down a wall.

    You are taking the idea of a sledgehammer in the most absolute sense. Like I said, the quote isn’t meant to be taken in the most absolute sense. It’s just attesting to the field Jean is unmatched in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    So we can, please, not strengthen it? It's a really bad analogy.
    I think I have done a good job demonstrating so far that Jean is more than her power, as Emma is more than her skill. You don’t have to use the quote or agree with me. Most of all, you have no need to worry about perpetuating a stupid idea of Jean Grey not having any skill. Trust me as Jean Grey fan and psychic fan.

    But I think your worry over my explanation is unfounded. Remember that I had a hand in creating Jean’s, Emma’s, Xavier’s, and almost every other telepsth’s RT on Comicvine, showing all of their skill based capabilities as well as their power based. Not just Jean’s raw power. Not just Emma’s pure skill.

    Nor does my explanation point to the idea that raw power is all Jean had. Newcomers who have conversed with me have found themselves not only learning about Jean’s power based capability, but skill-based capability to the point where they mostly agree Jean’s superiority even over Xavier with the collectiveness of her power AND skill.

    My notions only tears down the idea that Emma and Jean are one facet. Not the other way around.
    Last edited by PyroFN; 08-21-2021 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #6857
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    I will write more later, but this bears repeating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    In Hickman's definition of an Omega Level Mutant - "A mutant whose dominant power [i.e., ability] is deemed to register - or reach - an undefinable upper limit" - the operative words are "undefinable upper limit." It can be deduced that "upper limit" refers to both the quantity, i.e., scope, and quality, i.e., skill, of a mutant's dominant power, i.e., ability, which, in Jean's case, are "undefinable."

    That being said, at a certain point one's skill is dependent upon one's scope of knowledge and ability, or power.

    Now, I really must get back to these damn spreadsheets...


  3. #6858
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    In Hickman's definition of an Omega Level Mutant - "A mutant whose dominant power [i.e., ability] is deemed to register - or reach - an undefinable upper limit" - the operative words are "undefinable upper limit." It can be deduced that "upper limit" refers to both the quantity, i.e., scope, and quality, i.e., skill, of a mutant's dominant power, i.e., ability, which, in Jean's case, are "undefinable."

    That being said, at a certain point one's skill is dependent upon one's scope of knowledge and ability.

    Now, I really must get back to these damn spreadsheets...

    Uh, that is not what the definition refers to. If such were the case, there would be evidence of such from characters like Quentin Quire being better psi’s than Xavier and Emma or even history of comics for telepaths.

    Another character outside of Emma who displays the skill trumping power category is Sage. Take note that Betsy is a more powerful telepath than Sage, yet she needs to know how to use her own telepathy before she can ever capitalize on the power she already possesses. Sage displays that skill can make or break a combat scenario by reflecting Betsy’s own attack back on her. Sage needed but one singular move to completely scare Betsy off. That is the power skill can have.



    Remember that Jean wasn’t always the most powerful telepath on the planet. Xavier was. Jean needed time to grow in skill and power to trump her mentor overall. Thus, Jean’s placement as the Omega is only based on her raw power. Her place as the most powerful psychic on the planet right now is based on both her power and skill. She doesn’t need to be as skilled as Emma to be the most powerful psi on the planet, but she does need skill to contend with Emma and she already does. Emma is fine where she with her placement in skill. It doesn’t make her a suddenly better telepath than Jean.
    Last edited by PyroFN; 08-21-2021 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #6859
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Uh, that is not what the definition refers to. If such were the case, there would be evidence of such from characters like Quentin Quire being better psi’s than Xavier and Emma or even history of comics for telepaths.
    The Omega Level classification determines that a mutant's ability - often interchanged with the word "power," though not in the traditional sense - has an "undefinable upper limit." Ability is integral to skill, as is, at a certain point, power, in the traditional sense. Also, where has it been confirmed that Quentin Quire is not a better psi than Xavier and Emma? I am not saying that he is, but I am curious to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Her place as the most powerful psychic on the planet right now is based on both her power and skill. She doesn’t need to be as skilled as Emma to be the most powerful psi on the planet, but she does need skill to contend with Emma and she already does. Emma is fine where she with her placement in skill. It doesn’t make her a suddenly better telepath than Jean.
    Though I agree with most of what you wrote above, let's be clear: Jean has more of both the skill and power necessary not only to "contend" with but also to defeat Emma. I very much appreciate the discourse, though.

    __________

    I pulled myself from work - and still have much more to go 😭 - just to post this. (I just tweeted it, too.):

    Jean Grey meets Groot and, using telepathy, is able to understand what he says.

    “Jean Grey, you are everything that I love about the human race,” says Groot. 😭❤️ #iamgroot

    From the cover of All-New X-Men #23:



  5. #6860
    Incredible Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    The Omega Level classification determines that a mutant's ability - often interchanged with the word "power," though not in the traditional sense - has an "undefinable upper limit." Ability is integral to skill, as is, at a certain point, power, in the traditional sense. Also, where has it been confirmed that Quentin Quire is not a better psi than Xavier and Emma? I am not saying that he is, but I am curious to know.
    I didn’t. You imply it by grouping skill in Hickman’s definition of Omega. Quentin Quire is on the Omega list. You state that being Omega includes skill in that category. So by your own logic, Quentin Quire has more skill than either Emma or Xavier because by definition, Hickman’s definition means they are unsurpassed in their field. That is why Forge is not an Omega in technopathics.

    That in turn is why I firmly disagree with your assertion.

  6. #6861
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    This is something I don’t agree with. Skill/Experience (both are interchangeable) is a very important aspect that determines how deadly you are as a psi. Power and will are the other two aspects.

    The most prime example is the conversation comparing Rachel to Emma Frost. It’s also why Xavier isn’t left out in the dust completely by Jean’s overall power as an Omega. Again, it’s also scans like these for why Emma is basically the poster girl of skill


    The Phoenix Force itself even attests to this idea that skill is so much of an important aspect that Xavier’s confrontation with Dark Phoenix ended with his victory by a combination of Jean Grey’s assistance and his own skill.


    Skill is very much measurable. It is in equal parts what makes someone like Xavier, Betsy, or Emma an omega class telepath, which are the top class of telepaths with a combination of power and skill that puts them at the top of all telepaths on the planet. Jean Grey and Rachel are also in this class category.
    All right, then. How do you propose we actually measure? You can’t simply show me scans and say: “Jean has never done something like this”. Because I can show you scans and say “Emma has never done something like this”. It means nothing. We cannot infer that they can’t do it just because they were never shown trying.

    But if you want to compare pure skill against skill - which I do not - explain how a more skillful telepath can’t break into the construct another created and can’t possibly be powering because they are dead.

    Black Box. Have a go.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    That is not what the quote means. I can own a sledgehammer and not have need to destroy an entire household with it. It is a tool, when expertly used, can be used to effectively drive a nail or stake into the ground to build a tent as it could tear down a wall.

    You are taking the idea of a sledgehammer in the most absolute sense. Like I said, the quote isn’t meant to be taken in the most absolute sense. It’s just attesting to the field Jean is unmatched in.
    Yes and that’s what I meant: it's not the quote in itself. It's the follow-up. It’s the imagery that the quote invokes. And that’s why I would like us to drop that quote because it leads to misrepresentations that are harmful to both characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    I think I have done a good job demonstrating so far that Jean is more than her power, as Emma is more than her skill.
    You showed Emma is skilled. I agree with that. But I don’t agree with the implication that she is more skillful than Jean. Because again: there is no objective way of measuring it. Comparing feats of different nature is not objective.

    I could get scans from the two Silent Issues and use it to show that Jean is a more skillful telepath. But I won’t because I don’t think it’s an *objective* proof. It’s just argumentative.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    You don’t have to use the quote or agree with me. Most of all, you have no need to worry about perpetuating a stupid idea of Jean Grey not having any skill. Trust me as Jean Grey fan and psychic fan.
    Again: it’s not you or the quote itself. It’s how the quote is used to perpertrate the stupid ideas.

    It’s a bad analogy and we should drop it. But, obviously, I cannot make you or anyone do that. If you don’t agree it’s bad, you don’t…

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    But I think your worry over my explanation is unfounded. Remember that I had a hand in creating Jean’s, Emma’s, Xavier’s, and almost every other telepsth’s RT on Comicvine, showing all of their skill based capabilities as well as their power based. Not just Jean’s raw power. Not just Emma’s pure skill.

    Nor does my explanation point to the idea that raw power is all Jean had. Newcomers who have conversed with me have found themselves not only learning about Jean’s power based capability, but skill-based capability to the point where they mostly agree Jean’s superiority even over Xavier with the collectiveness of her power AND skill.

    My notions only tears down the idea that Emma and Jean are one facet. Not the other way around.
    But it’s not you per se. It’s the analogy. The analogy makes people have erroneous ideas about both characters that are much harder to dispel once they become gospel in someones mind. So we shouldn’t use it.

    You get what I mean?

  7. #6862
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Exactly...between Jean and Teen Jean we have her psychically help Psylocke(numerous times), Laura, Jessica Jones, and Gentle to name a few, and none of their minds have been ransacked and traumatized as if Jean is somehow the telepathic equivalent of a bull in a China shop. That is more fitting for early Nate Grey, when a mind probe or memory wipe had just as good a chance of causing permanent damage as the benign original intent. Seems Leah was being too cute by half in trying to overwrite people's impressions of each character with a lazy soundbite. Also, was the comparison suppose to invoke certain class implications? (Scalpel>Surgeon>White collar...Sledgehammer>Construction>Blue collar)
    I don’t think Leah implied anything to do with class. Not consciously, at least. But I don’t really know much about her so… maybe?

    The fact this analogy has been used to suggest that Jean would go with blunt force and traumatize a mind when there is absolutely *NOTHING* on canon to suggest that (quite the contrary, Jean has always been the more gentle, careful telepath when dealing in someone else’s mind) it’s all you need to know to understand this analogy is plain bad and it should be dropped.

  8. #6863
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I don´t think Jean´s comment about needing Emma´s help had anything to do with the idea of Emma being more skilled than Jean, I believe this is more a case of Leah suggesting them both exploring Magneto´s mind just like they have done in the past with Charles and Ororo just to be sure they find the memory of magneto killing Wanda and it´s not something fafricated or changed by his subconcious.

    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 08-21-2021 at 11:30 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  9. #6864
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    I didn’t. You imply it by grouping skill in Hickman’s definition of Omega. Quentin Quire is on the Omega list. You state that being Omega includes skill in that category. So by your own logic, Quentin Quire has more skill than either Emma or Xavier because by definition, Hickman’s definition means they are unsurpassed in their field. That is why Forge is not an Omega in technopathics.

    That in turn is why I firmly disagree with your assertion.
    You didn't what? Not confirm that Quentin Quire is not as good or simply an equal psi to Emma and Xavier? Oh, I know that. But you did imply it. As a matter of fact, Quentin Quire may very well be a better psi than Emma or Xavier. That's why I asked you, Where has it been confirmed that Quentin Quire is not a better psi than Xavier and Emma?

    Also, I state that the usage of the word power in the definition for Omega Level Mutant is referring to ability (e.g., telepathy, telekinesis), which encompasses skill, not just force or strength. In fact, the first Oxford definition for the word power is, "1. The ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality." https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/power

    The first and second Oxford definitions for faculty are also telling: 1. An inherent mental or physical power. 1.1. An aptitude or talent for doing something. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/faculty

    The Oxford definitions for aptitude continue the revealing trend: 1. A natural ability to do something. 1.1. A natural tendency.2. (archaic) Suitability or fitness. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/aptitude

    Yes, in my opinion, the word power as used to define Omega Level Mutants encompasses both quantity and quality, scope and skill of ability, which have undefined upper limits for Omega Level Mutants.
    Last edited by Mercury; 08-21-2021 at 11:44 PM.

  10. #6865
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I don´t think Jean´s comment about needing Emma´s help had anything to do with the idea of Emma being more skilled than Jean, I believe this is more a case of Leah suggesting them both exploring Magneto´s mind just like they have done in the past with Charles and Ororo just to be sure they find the memory of magneto killing Wanda and it´s not something fafricated or changed by his subconcious.
    Quite frankly, I don't trust Leah's intentions or neutrality when it comes to Jean. I have presented evidence in this thread that clearly shows she's more concerned with pointing out Jean's perceived faults and areas in which she feels Jean is not on the same level - ha! - as Emma, which seems to be, based on her Twitter history, her favorite character, or at least the one she prefers if she had to choose between her and Jean.

    1. She said that Jean's deepest, darkest, and even sexual desires were of a racist nature when Claremont never made such a declaration.
    2. She strongly implied that most Jean fans spend their time calling Emma a "whore."
    3. She's compared Jean to a sledgehammer and Emma to a scalpel. A comparison, mind you, that has some interesting connotations.
    4. Now she's writing Jean asking for help left and right.

    I'll have to wait and see how Jean fares in the end in her little series but I do have my eyes peeled.

  11. #6866
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    That´s fair and she may indeed be biased towards Jean but until there´s a confirmation, I think we can wait and see because Jean and Emma working together while exploring a mind has been done before and not as a way to show Jean is less skilled than Emma. Still if we see Jean doing worse than Emma with something she´s able to do herself then yes I will agree with you.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  12. #6867
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I don´t think Jean´s comment about needing Emma´s help had anything to do with the idea of Emma being more skilled than Jean, I believe this is more a case of Leah suggesting them both exploring Magneto´s mind just like they have done in the past with Charles and Ororo just to be sure they find the memory of magneto killing Wanda and it´s not something fafricated or changed by his subconcious.
    I'm okay-ish with it because of the narrative. And, sure, Jean might have preferred to have Emma around. Jean has nothing to prove to anyone and it doesn't hurt her pride to ask for assistance and it doesn't inflate her ego when someone asks for hers. Jean is used to work with other mutants and if that makes it safer for the "patient", why not?

    I mean, if you're going into someone else's mind during a turbulent episode and you can have another set of telepathic eyes with you, why wouldn't you want to use their help? Pride? Even if Jean was proud like that, she would still put someone else's safety first.

    The problem, I think, was the verb "need". That and the fact there was another instance of Jean "needing" help in the same issue. But tk stuff for me is the main offense here, the one I can't excuse.

  13. #6868
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I agree that tk moment indeed was rare, Jean just used her tk so lift a space station and she doesn´t need Rachel´s help to take Magneto to the gardens. Like there´s no reason for this.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  14. #6869
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I agree that tk moment indeed was rare, Jean just used her tk so lift a space station and she doesn´t need Rachel´s help to take Magneto to the gardens. Like there´s no reason for this.
    It's so she can bond with Rachel. Oh, please... have them actually interact then.

    I said it a previous post: it's like having Scott asking Alex to help him blast a simple wooden door and count that as a family moment. Do you see that ever happening or being justified as that? Yet, Jean somehow is always fair game for this BS.

  15. #6870
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    You know at first I took it to mean exactly that, that she was involving Rachel for bonding or also because Rachel and Magneto don´t have quite the same hostile relationship he does with other X-men of her generation so if he woke up and saw her he would not feel so defensive, still she would not need Rachel´s help to lift him, just for her to follow them to the gardens but I don´t think Leah was thinking in those terms when she wrote that scene especially given how she wrote Storm, Kitty and Lorna who alse are/were close to Magneto just the day before.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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