Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

You know at first I took it to mean exactly that, that she was involving Rachel for bonding or also because Rachel and Magneto don´t have quite the same hostile relationship he does with other X-men of her generation so if he woke up and saw her he would not feel so defensive, still she would not need Rachel´s help to lift him, just for her to follow them to the gardens but I don´t think Leah was thinking in those terms when she wrote that scene especially given how she wrote Storm, Kitty and Lorna who alse are/were close to Magneto just the day before.

I honestly would prefer if Jean had asked Rachel to do it, then. You could say she was trying to keep the investigation as "by-the-book" as possible, considering Rachel is part of X-Factor and Jean isn't. But then again, Rachel should also go in Magneto's mind [edit: even if Jean and Emma are actually doing the work and Rachel is there just a telepathic witness to the process so things can be as official as possible].

The point isn't that. The point is that it happens too often with Jean. You don't see male characters being put on those situations, for instance. They actually get interactions instead. Again: Leah could have written Rachel and Jean actually interacting in X-Factor, considering she's a writer who has dedicated panels for personal interactions in her book. She chose not to. And then we get that BS?

I'm sorry, that I really can't excuse.

[Mercury]

Cheer up, Grinning Soul. Honestly, I don't consider Leah that important or relevant.

Anyway, before I go to bed, I offer a delicious palette cleanser from the man charged with writing Jean now...

[Mercury]

[Grinning Soul]

Cheer up, Grinning Soul. Honestly, I don't consider Leah that important or relevant.

Anyway, before I go to bed, I offer a delicious palette cleanser from the man charged with writing Jean now...

I don't even blame Leah for Jean's portrayal in ToM because, at this point, we don't know what she actually wrote and what was changed. But the portrayal (regardless of who wrote it) is simply inexcusable. And I'm a person who gives writers the benefit of the doubt and cut them a lot of slack if it serves the narrative. It doesn't in this case.

[Lucyinthesky]

I honestly would prefer if Jean had asked Rachel to do it, then. You could say she was trying to keep the investigation as "by-the-book" as possible, considering Rachel is part of X-Factor and Jean isn't. But then again, Rachel should also go in Magneto's mind [edit: even if Jean and Emma are actually doing the work and Rachel is there just a telepathic witness to the process so things can be as official as possible].

The point isn't that. The point is that it happens too often with Jean. You don't see male characters being put on those situations, for instance. They actually get interactions instead. Again: Leah could have written Rachel and Jean actually interacting in X-Factor, considering she's a writer who has dedicated panels for personal interactions in her book. She chose not to. And then we get that BS?

I'm sorry, that I really can't excuse.

I agree completely, I also thought that given this is an X-factor operation it makes sense to involve Rachel, in fact, there´s no reason for no member of X-factor to be present with Scott, Jean and Logan unless they say the wanted to interrogate Magneto first and you are completely right if the point is to have them bond it would be logic for Jean to ask Rachel to go together and try to get new evidency from Magneto´s mind but then Rachel is nowhere to be seen in that scene.

Sometimes I get the feeling Jean is seen more like the symbol of the X-men than a character of her own, at least during this Krakoa era, like it would make perfect sense for her to give more oppinions, act with more initiative or use her powers in the natural way it comes to her and I guess we have talked before about this but she just look absent in all this, it´s similar to the problem I had with Leah´s take on Lorna, she had power feats but often was taken out of the fight quite easily and without much explanation.

[Grinning Soul]

I agree completely, I also thought that given this is an X-factor operation it makes sense to involve Rachel, in fact, there´s no reason for no member of X-factor to be present with Scott, Jean and Logan unless they say the wanted to interrogate Magneto first and you are completely right if the point is to have them bond it would be logic for Jean to ask Rachel to go together and try to get new evidency from Magneto´s mind but then Rachel is nowhere to be seen in that scene.

Sometimes I get the feeling Jean is seen more like the symbol of the X-men than a character of her own, at least during this Krakoa era, like it would make perfect sense for her to give more oppinions, act with more initiative or use her powers in the natural way it comes to her and I guess we have talked before about this but she just look absent in all this, it´s similar to the problem I had with Leah´s take on Lorna, she had power feats but often was taken out of the fight quite easily and without much explanation.

You know... a lot of writers think very little of Jean as a character and when they write her, it shows. It takes a good writer to realize that, once they have to write a character, they must set aside pre-conceived ideas and try to portray them the best they can. That means actually doing some digging, challenging themselves to look at the characters differently.

But many comic book writers write the characters as if they were comic book fans. And Jean is a very polarising character... so that's what you get. They want her in their books because she sells, but they don't really like her and they don't really try.

[Lucyinthesky]

You know... a lot of writers think very little of Jean as a character and when they write her, it shows. It takes a good writer to realize that, once they have to write a character, they must set aside pre-conceived ideas and try to portray them the best they can. That means actually doing some digging, challenging themselves to look at the characters differently.

Yes sometimes you can notice when a writer just doesn´t like a character they have to write and worse if they feel like it, they can write bad stories with them on purpose and the damage done is not always undone.

But many comic book writers write the characters as if they were comic book fans. And Jean is a very polarising character... so that's what you get. They want her in their books because she sells, but they don't really like her and they don't really try.

Yes I think this happens often to characters mistreated by previous writers or for TV or Movie perception.

In Jean´s case I believe Dark Phoenix became such an overwhelming great story that for some writers it feels like Jean story ended that day and there´s nothing more they can add to her story or that her new stories just can´t make it up to this Saga and at this I say well, we saw what happens when she´s out of control, so don´t you think it would be interesting to see her get an understanding of herself in a way that´s wholesome for her and others and their mission in the face of overhelming odds?

Like I love when the writers really try to get into the bones of the characters and bring something so new and interesting it becomes a permanent part of said character and with Jean I guess it´s harder because they may felt they have to write something better than Dark Phoenix and it doens´t have to be that way, they can write her as she´s with her own initiative in the present context and the story will grow from there.

[Mercury]

I don't even blame Leah for Jean's portrayal in ToM because, at this point, we don't know what she actually wrote and what was changed. But the portrayal (regardless of who wrote it) is simply inexcusable. And I'm a person who gives writers the benefit of the doubt and cut them a lot of slack if it serves the narrative. It doesn't in this case.

Are they rewriting ToM under her nose, too? I thought they did that only for the final issue of X-Factor. In either case, her bias is rather clear, if you ask me, but as I wrote earlier, I'm willing to wait and see how Jean's appearance in her series turns out before passing a final judgment.

Frankly, rather than focus on how badly Jean is being written or "how a lot of writers think very little of her" - is that even a quantifiable fact? - I would prefer to focus on how well Duggan is writing her, make myself conducive to him writing her even better by reaching out to him in support and with knowledge about her, and highlight on this forum how many amazing stories she has been involved in during the last five years, especially considering the fact that she was absent from comics for, what was it, nearly two decades?

I also wish we would discuss more the possibilities that lie before her and even in what direction we would like to see her taken. Right now, her power levels, especially as confirmed by White, are fantastic, and her development just preceding and following her official return - especially as written by Bendis, Hopeless, and Taylor - was exquisite. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but the constant negativity is getting to me. I can admit that I've played a part in it as well, but, as fans, we have a lot to be grateful for regarding where she's at and might be potentially going.

Anyway, I'm sleepy, exhausted, and punchy. Good night.

[ExodusCloak]

]

Duggan reading Heralds

I wonder if there are different ways to read a corpses mind

[Grinning Soul]

Yes sometimes you can notice when a writer just doesn´t like a character they have to write and worse if they feel like it, they can write bad stories with them on purpose and the damage done is not always undone.

Yep. But even if it’s not a big deal, it’s really annoying to read it.

Yes I think this happens often to characters mistreated by previous writers or for TV or Movie perception.

Yep. I love TAS, but Jean’s portrayal on it (WAXM and the anime) and the movies doesn’t help her at all. Evolution isn't so bad, but it also reinforces some erroneous ideas that get transferred to 616 Jean. Many current comic book writers came to the comics because of those stories and they never give 616 Jean a fair chance. They keep their pre-conceived ideas colouring everything they’re reading and, later, writing.

In Jean´s case I believe Dark Phoenix became such an overwhelming great story that for some writers it feels like Jean story ended that day and there´s nothing more they can add to her story or that her new stories just can´t make it up to this Saga and at this I say well, we saw what happens when she´s out of control, so don´t you think it would be interesting to see her get an understanding of herself in a way that´s wholesome for her and others and their mission in the face of overhelming odds?

Yes. I think Jean has a lot to offer in many different ways because she is such a special character. I think any writer who stopped to think a little bit about her and her characteristics would be able to see it. Jean is not just a powerhouse, after all.

As I wrote somewhere before, I’ve seen this argument that Jean peaked in DPS and there’s nothing more for her so many times... That’s like saying DD peaked in Born Again, so we shouldn’t be writing the character anymore.

But it is also the character that makes the story. The fact the character has been in a great story is argument to keep writing them, not to give up on them.

Like I love when the writers really try to get into the bones of the characters and bring something so new and interesting it becomes a permanent part of said character and with Jean I guess it´s harder because they may felt they have to write something better than Dark Phoenix and it doens´t have to be that way, they can write her as she´s with her own initiative in the present context and the story will grow from there.

I posted here before. Jean could have become an Ambassador for Krakoa. She reminds me so much of Lady Di. There. No need to create a psychic pink form.

Some people in Scott and Jean’s appreciation thread were talking about the possibility of having the Grey-Summers family go on to cosmic adventures or more time travelling or both. They have this connection already. No need to imbue one of them with a cosmic force again.

And so on and so on. I guess you got the point. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Are they rewriting ToM under her nose, too? I thought they did that only for the final issue of X-Factor.

I don’t know. But if they’ve done it once, I don’t see why they couldn’t do it again and I don’t want to judge her by something she might not have done.

In either case, her bias is rather clear, if you ask me, but as I wrote earlier, I'm willing to wait and see how Jean's appearance in her series turns out before passing a final judgment.

The judgement was about the portrayal regarding Jean’s tk, not even her tp. And I’m not even blaming Leah. So…

Frankly, rather than focus on how badly Jean is being written or "how a lot of writers think very little of her" - is that even a quantifiable fact?

Not many writers say out right they don’t like a character, so most of the times it’s not a quantifiable fact indeed. But for characters as established as Jean, you can normally tell the writer doesn’t think they’re interesting. It doesn’t mean they hate her, just that they think she’s not interesting as a character.

- I would prefer to focus on how well Duggan is writing her, make myself conducive to him writing her even better by reaching out to him in support and with knowledge about her, and highlight on this forum how many amazing stories she has been involved in during the last five years, especially considering the fact that she was absent from comics for, what was it, nearly two decades?

I think we’ve discussed already how Duggan has been writing her. I don’t think I have anything to add at this point.

And I don’t agree she’s been very amazing in the last five years. But that’s just my personal perspective.

I also wish we would discuss more the possibilities that lie before her and even in what direction we would like to see her taken. Right now, her power levels, especially as confirmed by White, are fantastic, and her development just preceding and following her official return - especially as written by Bendis, Hopeless, and Taylor - was exquisite. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but the constant negativity is getting to me. I can admit that I've played a part in it as well, but, as fans, we have a lot to be grateful for regarding where she's at and might be potentially going.

Anyway, I'm sleepy, exhausted, and punchy. Good night.

I don’t want to add to the negativity, which is why I don’t share a lot of my opinions.

Being honest, I don’t even want to be posting about any of that. I’ve been very stressed and this is stressful. I’m only doing it because of a weird sense of duty and true love for this character.

What I’m trying here is to keep Jean fans from going to twitter to attack Leah or Spurrier or derail another character’s appreciation thread. We can talk about her powers, vent our frustrations, disagree in just about everything, but I'd prefer did it here, in the house.

That’s what I’m coming from. And I think I don’t have much more to add anyway.

[Mercury]

Duggan reading Heralds

I wonder if there are different ways to read a corpses mind

Psychometry, for starters. Pages back, Omega_DCD, that little fount of data and glory, was kind enough to share instances in which Jean had either used psychometry or read a deceased person's mind. I believe the verdict is still out on what she was doing here:







Continued:

However, reabsorption may have had something to do with it? I'm really a bimbo about some of these things so...



Also:

I’ve been very stressed and this is stressful. I’m only doing it because of a weird sense of duty and true love for this character.

I'm sorry you have been stressed, Grinning Soul. I hope everything is okay. Also, I totally understand the "weird sense of duty and true love" for Jean you feel. Trust me. As I noted, I was punchy last night/early morning, so I apologize if my reply to you came off as flippant. :hug:

[Grinning Soul]

I'm sorry you have been stressed, Grinning Soul. I hope everything is okay. Also, I totally understand the "weird sense of duty and true love" for Jean you feel. Trust me. As I noted, I was punchy last night/early morning, so I apologize if my reply to you came off as flippant. :hug:

Thank you. And don't worry: you didn't. I was just trying to explain what I'm trying to do here. But I've been very tired and it's showing on my ability to understand and communicate well.

I really don't mind people ranting here because I think we should act like a support group for each other (if we don't, who will?). And I don't mind all the gushing in the world either (if not here, where are we supposed to do it?). I'd just prefer if we wouldn't fighting against each other and if we represented our favourite character the way she carries herself: with class and dignity. Attacking other fans or writers or editors doesn't do her (or us) any favours.

I hope it doesn't come across as censoring anyone. I'm just the old lady trying to keep the family united. That's all.

[Phoenixx9]

I also think that there are some Jean fan "pretenders" on here, whether they have a Jean avatar or not. They make it appear they like Jean until they do a tirade against her. Sometimes here, sometimes on another thread. If their favorite character is not an Omega, problems start, like trying to make them "more skillful" and therefore more useful or better than Jean in some way. This is so tired!

This thread should be a safe spot for us to Proclaim the greatness of Jean Grey, not a place where we have to constantly defend her, which we will as loyal Jean fans! Nothing can get us down. We know how great our Gal is and we stand by her.

[WallStreeter]

Thank you. And don't worry: you didn't. I was just trying to explain what I'm trying to do here. But I've been very tired and it's showing on my ability to understand and communicate well.

I really don't mind people ranting here because I think we should act like a support group for each other (if we don't, who will?). And I don't mind all the gushing in the world either (if not here, where are we supposed to do it?). I'd just prefer if we wouldn't fighting against each other and if we represented our favourite character the way she carries herself: with class and dignity. Attacking other fans or writers or editors doesn't do her (or us) any favours.

I hope it doesn't come across as censoring anyone. I'm just the old lady trying to keep the family united. That's all.

I’m sorry you feel stressed. Do what you have to feel better.

I do think excessive ranting is not good, either. Different people are always going to have different favorite characters or different interpretations of characters. Discussing those differences can be fine. Beating up people for them is terrible.

Harassing writers is terrible.

Jean in Trial of Magneto herself saved the X-Men from
Being killed by Magneto. But because she had Jean ask for help on a couple of tasks some lose their minds? And Jean is not meant to be the starting character of this story. Wanda is.