Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[PyroFN]

I also think that there are some Jean fan "pretenders" on here, whether they have a Jean avatar or not. They make it appear they like Jean until they do a tirade against her. Sometimes here, sometimes on another thread. If their favorite character is not an Omega, problems start, like trying to make them "more skillful" and therefore more useful or better than Jean in some way. This is so tired!

This thread should be a safe spot for us to Proclaim the greatness of Jean Grey, not a place where we have to constantly defend her, which we will as loyal Jean fans! Nothing can get us down. We know how great our Gal is and we stand by her.

Tell me this statement you are making is a coincidence and doesn’t have to do with me discussing the parameters of a telepath’s skill here. A lot of this is not anywhere near to my thoughts about the characters I discussed, yet the mention of “skillful” is suspect.

[Havok83]

Wait... Jean had no TK on Orchis? Why Don't I recall that?

thats bc its not true

[Phoenixx9]

Tell me this statement you are making is a coincidence and doesn’t have to do with me discussing the parameters of a telepath’s skill here. A lot of this is not anywhere near to my thoughts about the characters I discussed, yet the mention of “skillful” is suspect.

Coincidence my dear. I could have chosen to say "in one book it shows this" instead of what we usually see, or in "in this book it did show the character doing this" but I just thought "more skillful" was so less wordy, lol.

I am not into arguing points but Appreciating Jean for everything that she was, is and will be again!

[WallStreeter]

thats bc its not true

She did not use tk on that mission. Got killed by sentinels too. Was only there for the telepathic link.

[Grinning Soul]

You go on complexity of what the character would need to do to perform the feat to begin with or compare their performance in combat. For example, you state defending New York is a complex feat because a telepath would have to search for every individual mind. To me, that seems wrong because telepathics 101 starts with teaching a psi to read minds, which comes with the territory of searching for them. You can argue the complexity of each mind makes it a more complex task, but at the end of the day, it’s something a telepath would be learning the first day after learning to block thoughts.

No. That was not my point at all. But, I’m sorry. I’m too tired to engage in those minutia.

As a telepath gets more experienced, they learn to manipulate the multiple facets of the mind, such as memory, perception, emotions, and even thought itself while learning different techniques like the psi-bolt, psi-blasts, and illusions.

For example, let’s contrast to Jean looking for a void in the psychic plane. That is a complex feat because telepaths would normally overlook the void for a world that is constantly active with the thoughts of others. Jean looking for that void is a show of critical thinking on her part that tells her there might be something hidden in the silencing abyss. That is a complex feat denoting her skill. That is how you measure skill. You look at what telepaths normally do and judge performance based around it. Combat is another matter and Emma’s combat feats are some of the best that earn her the title as one of the top telepaths on the planet under Jean and Xavier.

This is how you measure skill in my and other people’s eyes.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Truly.

I’m really sorry, but I guess we have to agree to disagree. I don’t think any of this is an objective way of measuring.

I gave you one example - the Black Box - that would be objective (not argumentative) because it would show pure skill against pure skill. I didn’t bring this up to say that Jean is more skillful than Emma. But it’s evidence that their skill levels are similar.

I guess it doesn’t work for you? And that’s fine too.

As I said, it is only that way if you take it in absolutes. My entire point thus is to not take anything as an absolute unless evidence shows as much. The evidence does not line up with the absolute outlook, so I don’t take it as such. I may have a worry about people taking the quote the wrong way, but I leave the explanation in my own hands for better understanding, rather than simply letting them mistake it the wrong way.

The problem is that people does take it in absolutes and use it to perpetrate misconceptions. So why use this analogy at all?

Fair point in some respects, but I disagree to some extent.

If there was truly no hint of objectivity in it, then I suppose I couldn’t say Emma is a more skilled and powerful telepath than Karma, right?

And that Claremont’s description of how telepathics work in his portrayal of Emma’s conversation to Rachel holds no water as to the basics of what determines a skilled telepath? That more than raw power is what has a hand in it. Skill and will are what determine it just as much as power.

Let’s put it like this: there are tiers of skills. You can more or less place the characters on those tiers, but you can’t objectively measure the characters that are in the same tier.

The way I see it, in terms of skill, Xavier, Emma and Jean are pretty much equal. They do things differently because they approach problem-solving differently. But you can’t objectively measure who is more skillful than the other.

In terms of raw power, currently, Jean and Quentin are above the others. I don’t agree with it, actually, but it was established by the X-Office. Not that it matters much because that can change at any time too. It certainly doesn’t mean that Xavier, Rachel or Emma aren’t powerhouse telepaths on their own right.

Okay, but I am not taking a scan based off my own ruling. I am using the rules clearly stated in comic by Claremont about what makes a powerful telepath, which is followed by every other writer. If these were merely the opinions of Claremont, he would be contradicted by future writers, yet we clearly see evidence of his point when it comes to telepaths we know have more raw power, yet are trumped by more skilled psychics. Even Jean herself in fact, unless we are gonna say that Jean should have won her confrontation with the Stepford Cuckoos, despite being a novice telepath with next to no training.

About CC: Xavier only “controled” the Phoenix because Jean herself helped him. And no, I don’t think teen Jean should have won against the Cuckoos exactly because she wasn’t skilled.

But I’m also not talking about raw power against skill. I didn’t even bring this up. I’m talking about adult Jean’s telepathic skill.

This is contradictory. You say that it’s not the quote that is the problem in the first line, but then say it is a bad analogy in the second. It’s either a bad analogy, making the quote itself the problem, or it isn’t. My guess is you are trying to not make me angry, in which I can promise you I am not mad if you think it’s a bad quote. It’s your opinion and I respect it, even if I disagree.

I’m just not being able to express myself clearly right now. Too much in my mind. Sorry.

What I was trying to say is this: it’s a bad analogy. But the problem of this bad analogy is not that someone once made it. It’s that it keeps being repeated and employed in very bad way.

I understand you don’t read it like this. But you know enough about the characters to read it with nuance. Most people don’t. They read it and they think that Emma is all about finesse and Jean is all about brute force.

This is wrong about both characters. Jean is also highly skilled and Emma is also a powerhouse. So I’m just proposing we drop this analogy altogether so not to perpetrate misconceptions about both characters.

I don’t use the quote at all, so you don’t need to worry about it. In fact, you all are the ones who bring it up more than anyone else. If we want it forgotten, my suggestion would be to not stew over it. I jumped in on the conversation about it.

What I’m trying to do is to have us drop it already. Not discuss it to no end because, honestly, I don’t think we can objectively discuss it to begin with.

That’s really my motivation.

I think I understand. As I said previously, I don’t use it, so you don’t have to worry about it.

Cool then. :)

[PyroFN]

Coincidence my dear. I could have chosen to say "in one book it shows this" instead of what we usually see, or in "in this book it did show the character doing this" but I just thought "more skillful" was so less wordy, lol.

I am not into arguing points but Appreciating Jean for everything that she was, is and will be again!

Okay good. Anxiety levels spiked, I tell you.

[Phoenixx9]

Okay good. Anxiety levels spiked, I tell you.

It is all good.

[Spiderfan001]

She did not use tk on that mission. Got killed by sentinels too. Was only there for the telepathic link.

She did, she used it to hold the shuttle together.
Hickman made her an omega level Telepath so that's her primary feature.

[Havok83]

She did not use tk on that mission. Got killed by sentinels too. Was only there for the telepathic link.

she didnt use it bc she wasnt in combat. That doesnt mean she didnt have that power. Hickman's used her TK in other issues as have other writers

[Lucyinthesky]

Yep. But even if it’s not a big deal, it’s really annoying to read it.

Agreed so much, I know how´s to have to take a writer that thinks poorly of your favavorite character, like you know there will be other stories but it´s hard to see it that way at the moment if your character is being affected.

Yep. I love TAS, but Jean’s portrayal on it (WAXM and the anime) and the movies doesn’t help her at all. Evolution isn't so bad, but it also reinforces some erroneous ideas that get transferred to 616 Jean. Many current comic book writers came to the comics because of those stories and they never give 616 Jean a fair chance. They keep their pre-conceived ideas colouring everything they’re reading and, later, writing.

Yes this happens to all characters at some point but it´s especially bad when writers grew up seeing this version and thinking and writting those characters under this perspective without even looking into their actual story in the comics so if your fave was badly handled there, they won´t question it, they will just keep their view they had unless they take a more close approach to them to bring something different but this doesn´t always happens.

I personally loved TAS and it´s version of the Phoenix Saga was the thing I loved most but this doesn´t mean that I thought that was all to know about Jean so when I read the comics I was interested in seeing more of her. Different sides of her.

Yes. I think Jean has a lot to offer in many different ways because she is such a special character. I think any writer who stopped to think a little bit about her and her characteristics would be able to see it. Jean is not just a powerhouse, after all.

Agreed

As I wrote somewhere before, I’ve seen this argument that Jean peaked in DPS and there’s nothing more for her so many times... That’s like saying DD peaked in Born Again, so we shouldn’t be writing the character anymore.

But it is also the character that makes the story. The fact the character has been in a great story is argument to keep writing them, not to give up on them.

Exactly I don´t share this perspective that you should stop a character just because they already got great stories, precisely because they already have great stories they should try to write more about them.

I posted here before. Jean could have become an Ambassador for Krakoa. She reminds me so much of Lady Di. There. No need to create a psychic pink form.

I would like to see this too especially since the whole X-men team are kind of seen as ambassadors from Krakoa.

Some people in Scott and Jean’s appreciation thread were talking about the possibility of having the Grey-Summers family go on to cosmic adventures or more time travelling or both. They have this connection already. No need to imbue one of them with a cosmic force again.

And so on and so on. I guess you got the point.

I always enjoy the interaction between superpowered families but the human and character moments are the ones I enjoy most from them.

[Journey]

Hickman in the story where Jean went into Shi’ar Space with Storm and Scott didn’t have Jean use tal, either. Luckily other writers using her like Percy, Duggan, and Williams all acknowledge she is both a powerful telepath and telekinetic.

So though I loved Hickman’s vision, Jean fans including myself can sip champagne. Hickman is gone!

This is true cause Jean went out...... Not well...... Also he shoved her back in that tired ass mini dress that needs to be retired to the flames!

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Wait... Jean had no TK on Orchis? Why Don't I recall that?

She doesn't really have it under Hickman. Also, he didn't want to show her putting up a fight.

Historically, writers are very aggro and adamant that Jean Grey in particular not be portrayed as very powerful or capable.

It's a shipping thing.

[Journey]

Ohh I literally just came into this thread to say I unlocked Jean Grey in Ultimate Alliance 2 today & I was so shocked I've owned this game for years did not know she was playable she's OP! Lmao

[Marvelboy1974]

I’m hoping with Hickman’s departure that Jean Grey will finally be allowed to have a new costume and not just a recolor of any of her old ones, and the return of her omega status as a telekinetic.

[Mercury]

I’m hoping with Hickman’s departure that Jean Grey will finally be allowed to have a new costume and not just a recolor of any of her old ones, and the return of her omega status as a telekinetic.

Did you read Duggan's response to a fan's tweet last week? I posted it.

Fan: I’ll give you a tuggie under the table if you take Jean out the dress

Duggan: I can't favorite this, but I see you. 🥃

https://twitter.com/GerryDuggan/stat...14481304399872

Hm...