Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

Sorry I really have no taste for Robert Drake’s “me, me, me, it’s all about me” drama, maybe he should spend a little time with the people he left permanently injured after his rampage in new york, just to put things into perspective.

[Mercury]

Aw, thanks for adding those pages, Starchilde!

For those interested, yesterday, @ClaremontRun tweeted an excellent thread, opening with the observation:

One of the ways that Claremont defines Jean as a 2nd wave feminist superhero is through her simple, consistent reluctance to fall into a domestic relationship against her wishes and to assert, instead, her independence and superheroism. #xmen 1/13

https://mobile.twitter.com/Claremont...52761285922820

It’s a must read!

[Tenebrae]

If you're posting pages from a particular book, limit it to 3 max plz

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Users must keep copyright issues in mind during their time at the CBR Forums. No more than three pages of any given comic should be posted at any one time (which should be plenty for review purposes).

[Phoenixx9]

Jean was referred to as the most powerful telepath on Earth as far back as 1997. From Wolverine #118:

The wording in the action panel makes me wonder if Jean can do PHYSICAL damage with her Telepathy. Yes. it would appear to be true. Another Jean Power!

[Grinning Soul]

As an actual woman, I find some of this feminist talk that is presented as what is right for a woman to feel or do just as limiting and damaging.

And I find it particularly funny and ironic when people try to apply it to Jean Grey of all characters.

Let's extend the same courtesy we extend to men and male characters: let's see Jean and women in general as individuals who act on their feelings, background and personal perspectives and don't represent their entire gender!

[Devaishwarya]

"Psionically pulling" would indicate using TK not TP even if the caption say "Telepathic Mind". I think the writer was generalising Jean's power, here.

[WallStreeter]

As an actual woman, I find some of this feminist talk that is presented as what is right for a woman to feel or do just as limiting and damaging.

And I find it particularly funny and ironic when people try to apply it to Jean Grey of all characters.

Let's extend the same courtesy we extend to men and male characters: let's see Jean and women in general as individuals who act on their feelings, background and personal perspectives and don't represent their entire gender!

60s and 70s Marvel had no women editors, writers, executives, artists. The teams back then had token representation of women.

Therefore gender issues are impossible to avoid when discussing comics characters, especially historical issues. Byrne had Jean killed off because he did not think the team needed two powerful women and he hated the changes that happened in January when she became Phoenix. Not just powers, but she moved into the city and shared an apartment with Misty Knight.

That doesn’t mean you have to agree with feminist talk or that it’s takes away what you said if the rights of women and all people to be individuals.

[WallStreeter]

The current era has put a lot more powerful women in leadership positions and there are more women creators, editors, screenwriters, directors, etc.

[Starchilde]

If you're posting pages from a particular book, limit it to 3 max plz

Sorry for the mistake and thanks for the warning, delete them if its needed.

[Grinning Soul]

60s and 70s Marvel had no women editors, writers, executives, artists. The teams back then had token representation of women.

Therefore gender issues are impossible to avoid when discussing comics characters, especially historical issues. Byrne had Jean killed off because he did not think the team needed two powerful women and he hated the changes that happened in January when she became Phoenix. Not just powers, but she moved into the city and shared an apartment with Misty Knight.

That doesn’t mean you have to agree with feminist talk or that it’s takes away what you said if the rights of women and all people to be individuals.

Have you ever watched the episodes of the original Star Trek series from the 60s? Just like the comics, they were trying to portray women somewhat equal. You didn't only have the equivalent of "secretaries" in the Enterprise. They were women officers, women who were specialists in their fields, even women in the position of power (of their people, their spaceship) etc... But the show is still plagued with sexism, just like the comics.

I think we need to look back and understand the times in which they were written. And it's also true when we look at what first and second wave feminists said and did.

Trying to simply copy and paste that rhetoric to the reality of most Western women nowadays is also harmful to women. Trying to frame the personal choices of a character as a symbol of feminism without even taking into consideration her personal circumstances at the time doesn't elevate the character, it simply denies her what any male character is given freely: individuality.

And, as a woman, this bothers me because none of this has anything to do with equality, if you think about it.

[Phoenixx9]

"Psionically pulling" would indicate using TK not TP even if the caption say "Telepathic Mind". I think the writer was generalising Jean's power, here.

Not at all. The panel says and shows it. Jean has TP that can affect matter when she so choses.

[Mercury]

"Psionically pulling" would indicate using TK not TP even if the caption say "Telepathic Mind". I think the writer was generalising Jean's power, here.

Not at all. The panel says and shows it. Jean has TP that can affect matter when she so choses.

I agree with Devaishwarya. The writer may have simply wanted to underscore her strongest power, which, at this point, was not telekinesis, I believe, due to Exodus' existence. Nonetheless, he could have written something along the lines of, "...reaches out with her mind - one of the most powerful telekinetic minds on the planet - and psionically pulls...," but that sounds strange even to me.

In either case, the keywords are "psionically pulling." Psionics encompasses most if not all mental powers, including telekinesis and telepathy. If the writer had intended this to be a telepathic feat, I believe he would've just written: "telepathically pulling."

Let's extend the same courtesy we extend to men and male characters: let's see Jean and women in general as individuals who act on their feelings, background and personal perspectives and don't represent their entire gender!

This is a very good point, Grinning Soul. Nevertheless, Jean was assertive, independent, and rather self-aware years before Claremont came on board.

[Phoenixx9]

I agree with Devaishwarya. The writer may have simply wanted to underscore her strongest power, which, at this point, was not telekinesis, I believe, due to Exodus' existence. Nonetheless, he could have written something along the lines of, "...reaches out with her mind - one of the most powerful telekinetic minds on the planet - and psionically pulls...," but that sounds strange even to me.

In either case, the keywords are "psionically pulling." Psionics encompasses most if not all mental powers, including telekinesis and telepathy. If the writer had intended this to be a telepathic feat, I believe he would've just written: "telepathically pulling."



This is a very good point, Grinning Soul. Nevertheless, Jean was assertive, independent, and rather self-aware years before Claremont came on board.

I disagree. And wasn't this back in the 1990's? If so, then Exodus was not stated to be more powerful than Jean in Telekinetic Power at that point.

The "psionically pulling" does not tell me that it is TK over TP. Maybe Jean's TP can have a physical affect and it pulled Bastion apart.

Xavier, Betsy and even emma have been shown to have TP that has done physical things to those at whom it was aimed.

[Mercury]

I disagree. And wasn't this back in the 1990's? If so, then Exodus was not stated to be more powerful than Jean in Telekinetic Power at that point.

The "psionically pulling" does not tell me that it is TK over TP. Maybe Jean's TP can have a physical affect and it pulled Bastion apart.

Xavier, Betsy and even emma have been shown to have TP that has done physical things to those at whom it was aimed.

We can agree to disagree then. Also, Xavier's, Betsy's, and Emma's telepathic feats have been shown to have slight physical effects (e.g., someone being propelled by the force of their psychic bolts), but not anything comparable to telekinesis.

[Mercury]

Stumbled upon this last night and now I want more. The art was somewhat ahead of its time. It has the aesthetic we are more used to today from artists like Dauterman and Werneck and Land. Here are Jean and Betsy working together like CSI detectives. From Archangel #1 [1996] (there are more pages, but I want to respect the rule Tenebrae highlighted):