Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

But what the hell does that mean?!



Also, does he still have it?

In either case, has Jean ever needed a "Phoenix egg" to call on the ol' firebird? Now that I think of it, I'm glad they haven't complicated her relationship with it by throwing in eggs and god knows what else ��

I don't think so.

It was in Secret wars and Doom stomped Phoenix Cyclops ,choking him and said "The revolution is dead, Bury it"IIRC.

It was a very cool moment, but cyclops came out as a dumbass.W/ the entire revolution thing I don't mind it, it's a fitting end.

[Grinning Soul]

I cannot change anyone's opinion's on the rapport and I'm not trying to, but it's not factual to say Scott and Jean were reading each other's thoughts all the time. There are several scenes in which they're *talking* to each other about what is bothering them. Verbally asking and verbally answering (some were shared a few pages back in this very thread). That would not be necessary if they were always reading each other's thoughts, would it?

I'm not going to post some of those scenes here because, again: I don't want to annoy anyone. I have some of those pages ready to share. Anyone who is interested in the factual nature of Scott and Jean's relationship can write to me and I'll be glad to show those scenes.

I don't want to challenge anyone in their personals dislikes, especially the people who I don't think can or want to be reached. I'm just pointing out that they not read each other's thoughts all the time because of the rapport.

[Exodus]

I cannot change anyone's opinion's on the rapport and I'm not trying to, but it's not factual to say Scott and Jean were reading each other's thoughts all the time. There are several scenes in which they're *talking* to each other about what is bothering them. Verbally asking and verbally answering (some were shared a few pages back in this very thread). That would not be necessary if they were always reading each other's thoughts, would it?

omg, that's soooo creepy and unhealthy. Jean and Scott better break up ASAP!

[Grinning Soul]

omg, that's soooo creepy and unhealthy. Jean and Scott better break up ASAP!

I know, right? I don't think there is a single couple in Marvel comics in which you have more scenes of both being supportive of one another about their individual struggles, or more respectful of each other's flaws and aspirations, yet I often hear/read people (not only fans but also creators) saying their relationship was toxic.

No one is forced to like their relationship, but if you don't like it, make sure you actually read the comics with neutral eyes (= not colouring every interaction through you deep hate for one of the characters) instead of just buying into those untruthful echo chambers. Or, at the very least, don't strengthen them by repeating stuff that is factually wrong.

Honestly... I think if I want to stay in my corner I have to stop reading this thread altogether.

[Daedra]

I cannot change anyone's opinion's on the rapport and I'm not trying to, but it's not factual to say Scott and Jean were reading each other's thoughts all the time. There are several scenes in which they're *talking* to each other about what is bothering them. Verbally asking and verbally answering (some were shared a few pages back in this very thread). That would not be necessary if they were always reading each other's thoughts, would it?

I'm not going to post some of those scenes here because, again: I don't want to annoy anyone. I have some of those pages ready to share. Anyone who is interested in the factual nature of Scott and Jean's relationship can write to me and I'll be glad to show those scenes.

I don't want to challenge anyone in their personals dislikes, especially the people who I don't think can or want to be reached. I'm just pointing out that they not read each other's thoughts all the time because of the rapport.

My issue is not with their past psionic intimacy, I just don’t believe in Jott 2.0 , there was no organic growth, suddenly it was ON again as if nothing ever happened, no question asked, Scott was once again in the mood to play the good family’s man and there Jean was fresh out of resurrection totally compliant and ready to play along. I’m not feeling it marvel, sometimes you can’t go back and you have to live with the consequences of your own shitty writing.

[Grinning Soul]

My issue is not with their past psionic intimacy, I just don’t believe in Jott 2.0 , there was no organic growth, suddenly it was ON again as if nothing ever happened, no question asked, Scott was once again in the mood to play the good family’s man and there Jean was fresh out of resurrection totally compliant and ready to play along. I’m not feeling it marvel, sometimes you can’t go back and you have to live with the consequences of your own shitty writing.

I understand that. I wish we could see some sort of talk between them too. Even if it was a quick one. And, though I'm happy they're supposed to be together, I don't really feel it. But maybe Duggan just don't want to annoy people who hate them together either? I don't know.

But Daedra, sweetie, I don't have any problem with people not liking them together or preferring them with another character. I don't hide that I'm a fan, but I keep the gushing to their own thread exactly because I respect that people might feel differently here. Taste is personal and subjective, after all. I just don't understand why people feel like they have to justify their dislike/hate by resorting to stating stuff that is untrue and doesn't even make sense.

[Daedra]

I understand that. I wish we could see some sort of talk between them too. Even if it was a quick one. And, though I'm happy they're supposed to be together, I don't really feel it. But maybe Duggan just don't want to annoy people who hate them together either? I don't know.

But Daedra, sweetie, I don't have any problem with people not liking them together or preferring them with another character. I don't hide that I'm a fan, but I keep the gushing to their own thread exactly because I respect that people might feel differently here. Taste is personal and subjective, after all. I just don't understand why people feel like they have to justify their dislike/hate by resorting to stating stuff that is untrue and doesn't even make sense.

Agreed, liking Jott or not is at the end of the day something related to personal taste, there is no point in fighting over it and I’m happy if others find this aspect of Jean life still enjoyable, I personally think that Marvel’s overall treatment of Jean stinks like horse-****, They usually just shoot her down whenever she flies too high but people seems to be willing to still trust the powers in charge so who am I to change their mind?

[Mercury]

I don't think so. It was in Secret wars and Doom stomped Phoenix Cyclops ,choking him and said "The revolution is dead, Bury it"IIRC. It was a very cool moment, but cyclops came out as a dumbass.W/ the entire revolution thing I don't mind it, it's a fitting end.

Doom was able to defeat a Phoenix-bonded Cyclops? Damn. I'll have to check Secret Wars. I have so much to catch up on.

I don't want to challenge anyone in their personals dislikes, especially the people who I don't think can or want to be reached. I'm just pointing out that they [do] not read each other's thoughts all the time because of the rapport.

This is what discussions are about, though, GS: Challenging each other. For example, the user Walter Simonson (is that really him?) recently challenged my assertion, which was based on a misheard comment Louise Simonson made in the Chris Claremont documentary, that Louise wrote captions for the death of the D'bari scene in the Dark Phoenix Saga. I challenged him back by reasserting my claim and posting a link to the documentary. But, then, I thought to myself, If this is really him, would he, who knows her and her career better than I could, be wrong?

I went back and reviewed the documentary, and lo and behold, I had misheard what she said, partly because I was listening to the documentary, which played in the background as I worked. She said, "I read a caption," not, "I wrote a caption," though I beg those interested in listening to that particular moment to see/hear for themselves how much it sounds like she's saying the latter. In either case, had he not challenged me (nobody else did), I wouldn't have discovered that I was wrong—just food for thought.

I know, right? I don't think there is a single couple in Marvel comics in which you have more scenes of both being supportive of one another about their individual struggles, or more respectful of each other's flaws and aspirations, yet I often hear/read people (not only fans but also creators) saying their relationship was toxic.

No one is forced to like their relationship, but if you don't like it, make sure you actually read the comics with neutral eyes (= not colouring every interaction through you deep hate for one of the characters) instead of just buying into those untruthful echo chambers. Or, at the very least, don't strengthen them by repeating stuff that is factually wrong.

Honestly... I think if I want to stay in my corner I have to stop reading this thread altogether.

I am not sure I would go as far as calling their relationship toxic, but I'm also not sure Jean would have gone back to Scott so quickly and easily after what he did with Emma. I mean, she already balked at the fact that he left Madelyne and Nathan and refused to be with him as a result.

Part of my problem with them being re-coupled has more to do with Jean than with him. She has not been allowed to explore life and herself as a single woman. Furthermore, save for the occasional alternate universe storyline, she has also not been allowed to explore and enjoy another intimate relationship. I find this troubling, though not as much as others do.

My issue is not with their past psionic intimacy, I just don’t believe in Jott 2.0 , there was no organic growth, suddenly it was ON again as if nothing ever happened, no question asked, Scott was once again in the mood to play the good family’s man and there Jean was fresh out of resurrection totally compliant and ready to play along. I’m not feeling it marvel, sometimes you can’t go back and you have to live with the consequences of your own shitty writing.

I totally agree with you.

I understand that. I wish we could see some sort of talk between them too. Even if it was a quick one. And, though I'm happy they're supposed to be together, I don't really feel it. But maybe Duggan just don't want to annoy people who hate them together either? I don't know.

I'm surprised to read that you "don't really feel" Jean and Scott currently being together. Could you expound?

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed, liking Jott or not is at the end of the day something related to personal taste, there is no point in fighting over it and I’m happy if others find this aspect of Jean life still enjoyable, I personally think that Marvel’s overall treatment of Jean stinks like horse-****, They usually just shoot her down whenever she flies too high but people seems to be willing to still trust the powers in charge so who am I to change their mind?

Here’s how I see it: compared to what came before in this Krakoan era, Jean is at a better place.

Why do I think that? Because if they wanted to write Beast as they’re writing him and they didn’t want Jean to challenge him and the QC about it, they shouldn’t have put her in that book to begin with.

On a book where is she allowed to be the absolute hero she is, there is less chance for character assassination. Besides, it is the flagship and she is supposed to be co-leading the team.

Now that doesn’t mean I trust Marvel or even Duggan. Which is why I keep saying: so far so good. I don’t think her presence is stellar, but it’s pretty good considering the current status-quo.

Would I like more? Yes. But simply not ruining my favourites is good enough for me those days. The bar is this low.

[Grinning Soul]

This is what discussions are about, though, GS: Challenging each other. For example, the user Walter Simonson (is that really him?) recently challenged my assertion, which was based on a misheard comment Louise Simonson made in the Chris Claremont documentary, that Louise wrote captions for the death of the D'bari scene in the Dark Phoenix Saga. I challenged him back by reasserting my claim and posting a link to the documentary. But, then, I thought to myself, If this is really him, would he, who knows her and her career better than I could, be wrong?

I went back and reviewed the documentary, and lo and behold, I had misheard what she said, partly because I was listening to the documentary, which played in the background as I worked. She said, "I read a caption," not, "I wrote a caption," though I beg those interested in listening to that particular moment to see/hear for themselves how much it sounds like she's saying the latter. In either case, had he not challenged me (nobody else did), I wouldn't have discovered that I was wrong—just food for thought.

But not everyone is open-minded.

If a person doesn’t want to see something, they won’t. And I value my time too much to waste it on this effort. So what I’m trying here is to simply tell people that if they want a different perspective, I can offer it and I’m glad to, but I’m not going to spend my time with people who are *not* interested.

I am not sure I would go as far as calling their relationship toxic, but I'm also not sure Jean would have gone back to Scott so quickly and easily after what he did with Emma. I mean, she already balked at the fact that he left Madelyne and Nathan and refused to be with him as a result.

On that I agree. I don’t think they would be able to simply ignore what happened. I can see them getting back together, but after a lot of talk and a period of probation.

Unfortunately, in this era, the writers don’t seem every interest in focusing on personal relationships, so I guess that’s too much to ask. That’s why I said that even a short conversation, expanding a bit on their short dialogue during her resurrection story would do.

It’s not what or how I wanted it to happen, but again: I’m trying not to expect too much from the current comics.

Part of my problem with them being re-coupled has more to do with Jean than with him. She has not been allowed to explore life and herself as a single woman. Furthermore, save for the occasional alternate universe storyline, she has also not been allowed to explore and enjoy another intimate relationship. I find this troubling, though not as much as others do.

I don’t find that troubling at all. When you find the one, you find the one. You’ll still feel attracted to other people, because that’s hormonal. But your heart found its home and it doesn’t need to roam around, wondering if there’s something better elsewhere.

I'm surprised to read that you "don't really feel" Jean and Scott currently being together. Could you expound?

This feeling comes from several things that were common for the couple that just aren’t there. For instance, it was their signature to fight holding hands or do so when she was flying them telekinetically. They were very touchy-feely and physically affectionate, they often talked to each other, etc…

Last issue, for instance, they shared the same panel 5 times. All of those were group shots. He talked to her in specific twice, about the battle, during the battle, then he asked both her and Lorna “how did it go?”. She told him telepathically that she would talk to him about it and I’m hoping we’ll see it, but I think it will off-panel.

Now, I understand Duggan is juggling a lot of stuff and their relationship is not the focal point of the story. But their being portrayed next to each other with their arms around each other, for instance, doesn’t take panel time. You understand what I mean? The narrative doesn’t need to focus on them for them to read as the couple they used to be.

At the same time, it’s not absurd to imagine that the co-leaders would have team-related stuff to talk about, right?

But I also understand there’s been only two issues in which the characters have been written in the same book as part of the main cast. So this may change and I sincerely hope it does. But like I just wrote to Daedra, I’m always careful with my enthusiasm nowadays.

[Grinning Soul]

Now, please, guys. Let me retreat to my corner before someone else drags me to an unpleasant interaction.

If anyone wants to see those pages I mentioned, please, let me know in private and I'll share them.

[Mercury]

I don’t find that troubling at all. When you find the one, you find the one. You’ll still feel attracted to other people, because that’s hormonal. But your heart found its home and it doesn’t need to roam around, wondering if there’s something better elsewhere.

To be clear, I find it troubling because Scott has been allowed to "roam around" and explore himself, both as a single man and in other relationships (e.g., Madelyne, Emma). Jean has not been afforded the same agency. Furthermore, as we agreed, I don't believe she would have gone back to him so quickly, or at all, quite frankly, especially after everything that happened before and after her death under Morrison, including the murder of her family, her time displacement, and the events surrounding her resurrection.

Now, I understand Duggan is juggling a lot of stuff and their relationship is not the focal point of the story. But their being portrayed next to each other with their arms around each other, for instance, doesn’t take panel time. You understand what I mean? The narrative doesn’t need to focus on them for them to read as the couple they used to be.

Frankly, I am glad that they are not depicted constantly pawing at each other, especially considering the fact that their reunion has not been sufficiently explored nor explained. Also, I have never found such depictions to be realistic, but, then again, these are comic books, lol. In either case, considering the fact that I am not a big supporter of their current coupling, I have been pleased with how they have been depicted under both Hickman and Duggan. There's a maturity to their interactions that softens my annoyance at them being together.

EDIT: I just read this, lol:

Now, please, guys. Let me retreat to my corner before someone else drags me to an unpleasant interaction.

If anyone wants to see those pages I mentioned, please, let me know in private and I'll share them.

By all means, feel free to not respond to my reply if you feel it'll cause you to involve yourself in "an unpleasant interaction." Of course, I would love to discuss our thoughts further, but I don't want to push you.

[Grinning Soul]

By all means, feel free to not respond to my reply if you feel it'll cause you to involve yourself in "an unpleasant interaction." Of course, I would love to discuss our thoughts further, but I don't want to push you. :)

It’s not necessarily your message. But something I say replying to you might still provoke someone else.

To be clear, I find it troubling because Scott has been allowed to "roam around" and explore himself, both as a single man and in other relationships (e.g., Madelyne, Emma). Jean has not been afforded the same agency. Furthermore, as we agreed, I don't believe she would have gone back to him so quickly, or at all, quite frankly, especially after everything that happened before and after her death under Morrison, including the murder of her family, her time displacement, and the events surrounding her resurrection.

I respect your opinion. And I’m really not trying to convince you.

I just don’t think the comparison is fair. Except for that telepathic affair, which is a whole different discussion that I will *not* start here again, Scott was only single or in other relationships while Jean was dead or he thought she was. And he wasn’t even allowed to be single for long if you actually look into his history.

EDIT: So which actual relationships he had? With a woman who was Jean's clone and had Jean's soul/essence/memories? With a woman Jean pushed him to be with? Or the one the super alter Moira forced him to marry for a week? 'Cause Lee and Colleen barely register as a relationship.

Now, CC could have allowed Jean to find “comfort” (don’t male writers love to write this BS?) in another man’s arms while she thought Scott was dead. But he preferred to submit Jean - yet again - to abuse and, therefore, he had to leave things ambiguous.

Jean could have had a relationship during Red as well, especially if they had kept Scott dead for longer (I’m not saying they should - I’m talking about allowing her time in-story to grieve). But they also decided not to go for it.

So what can you do? Force her to be single and exploring when it doesn’t make sense just because he was seemingly allowed to do so? Kill him for 20 years so it’s comparable?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. You know what I mean?

Frankly, I am glad that they are not depicted constantly pawing at each other, especially considering the fact that their reunion has not been sufficiently explored nor explained. Also, I have never found such depictions to be realistic, but, then again, these are comic books, lol. In either case, considering the fact that I am not a big supporter of their current coupling, I have been pleased with how they have been depicted under both Hickman and Duggan. There's a maturity to their interactions that softens my annoyance at them being together.

Well, it wasn’t constantly and it was mutual. That’s why it was realistic. :)

[Mercury]

ItÂ’s not necessarily your message. But something I say replying to you might still provoke someone else.

I understand this, but I would suggest ignoring them or clearly stating you will not engage in a heated debate versus not participating in this thread.

I respect your opinion. And IÂ’m really not trying to convince you.

I respect your opinion, too, and I don't see our discussion as boiling down to either of us trying to convince the other of anything. Instead, we are simply clarifying where we both stand. At worst, we will maintain our positions. At best, we might provide one another with further insight into why we each feel as we do.

I just donÂ’t think the comparison is fair. Except for that telepathic affair, which is a whole different discussion that I will *not* start here again, Scott was only single or in other relationships while Jean was dead or he thought she was. And he wasnÂ’t even allowed to be single for long if you actually look into his history.

Regardless of how Scott's other relationships came about, the fact is that Jean has not been afforded the same independence and opportunities to explore that he has. This alone makes why her fans yearn for her to be single or with someone else logical and understandable. (Mind you, I am not saying this is his fault as much as it is that of the writers.) But, further to the point, more so than being with others while Jean was both alive and dead, I take issue with how he's handled these other relationships, as has Jean on-panel.

First, there is the question of his loyalty and integrity. Upon her return in 1986, he and the rest of the original five made it a point of not telling Jean about Madelyne, something that hurt and angered her deeply. (Granted, I am still catching up on so much, so I haven't yet had a chance to read how that was resolved and how, when, and why she decided to be with him again.) Moreover, I take issue with how he left Madelyne and Nathan, which had cascading ramifications for all parties involved.

Additionally, his telepathic affair with Emma was inexcusable as far as I am concerned, especially considering the fact that Jean attempted to speak with him prior to it and precisely because she felt they were growing apart. After being aware of her role during the Dark Phoenix Saga, it still baffles me that he allowed Emma to carry on as she did. He should have ended their private interactions immediately. Ultimately, how he handled and entered into his relationships with Madelyne and Emma, respectively, have forever changed how I view him.

This leads me to my final point: Based on Jean's on-panel reactions to the aforementioned and on how headstrong, assertive, and averse to lying she is, I don't believe for one moment that she would not have taken an extended period to both reevaluate their relationship and to reassess him as a person. I suppose Bendis, whose run I adore, provided her with this to some degree, making it more understandable why Jean, upon her last return in 2017, would so easily go back to him. Of course, by that point, she would have been fully conscious of her experiences as a time-displaced teenager, during which she did get a chance to speak with both him and Emma.

EDIT: So which actual relationships he had? With a woman who was Jean's clone and had Jean's soul/essence/memories? With a woman Jean pushed him to be with? Or the one the super alter Moira forced him to marry for a week? 'Cause Lee and Colleen barely register as a relationship.

To be fair, neither he knew nor had it been established that Madelyne was Jean's clone. Additionally, as I noted above, I take issue with how he handled his relationship with Madelyne in the end, not so much with the fact that he moved on after he was convinced Jean was dead and gone for good. People should be allowed to move on. As for Emma, I think it is unfair to say that Jean "pushed him" to be with Emma. He was carrying on a telepathic affair with her long before she found out, died, and became the White Phoenix, during which she was in a heightened, transcendental state when she healed the "wounded orphan universe" so that they could be together.

As I see it, Jean always gets the short end of the stick from both fans of her relationship with Scott and her detractors. Fans quickly forgive and excuse his behavior, while her detractors fault her for what happened with Madelyne and Emma. It would be maddening if I let it be, but I don't.

Jean could have had a relationship during Red as well, especially if they had kept Scott dead for longer (IÂ’m not saying they should - IÂ’m talking about allowing her time in-story to grieve). But they also decided not to go for it.

True. Nevertheless, it was wonderful seeing her operate as a single, independent woman.

So what can you do? Force her to be single and exploring when it doesnÂ’t make sense just because he was seemingly allowed to do so? Kill him for 20 years so itÂ’s comparable?

Two wrongs donÂ’t make a right. You know what I mean?

Writing her as single or in another relationship could "make sense," for the reasons I listed above. I don't even think that is debatable. Neither her identity nor what makes her an interesting character are contingent upon her relationship with Scott. Additionally, I wouldn't consider a writer who came along and decided, "You know what? I want to make Jean single. Or maybe put her in a relationship with Bishop," "wrong," either.

Well, it wasnÂ’t constantly and it was mutual. ThatÂ’s why it was realistic.

This is a fair point.

[PyroFN]

Interesting thing about the Phoenix Egg is that it is supposed to signify the end of the universe when it hatches.



The first and second time someone has hatched the Egg, the universe did indeed collapse. The last two times an Egg was present, it was hatched prematurely by a third party. Well, technically, the second was also hatched by a third party, but the multiverse was kind of already in collapse, so there is no reason to believe it wasn’t already about to hatch.

I am positive Scott having and hatching it was supposed to signify the end of all things. His goal may have been trying to stop it, but that wasn’t gonna happen. How to interpret the Egg being there is dependent on context.