Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rebel Heart]

I don't have Facebook. I saw it shared on Twitter. Maybe someone saw your post and decided to pass it along?

Cool. Great minds. Think alike.

[Mercury]

I don't know if I'd describe it as "she altered his mind to the degree it took to make him want to birth the space station". Jean herself was surprised when he suddenly got pregnant and literally gave birth to it. So it's not like she literally caused that exact scenario. The way the scene is written from what I remember implies Jamie became more enthusiastic about it than they expected. Also, it doesn't really matter that he wasn't "Ok, let's build this" ? He was on Mars helping the mutants terraform and he was perfectly willing to help in their overall goal like everyone else there.

I have to step out but wanted to say that you’ve posted some valid points. When I get back I will review the scene and reply further. If anyone wants to do so first in the interim, here are the pages:

[Omega_DCD]

An issue came out this week in which Jean appears and after reading it I decided to discuss her portrayal in a particular scene...especially compared to similar situations in the past. This is not whinning. I don't hate Jean here and I don't hate this issue, in fact, that's why I've kept my posts to this thread instead of bringing it up in the TOM#2 review thread(where others have also expressed portrayal issues, mainly Magneto's) . I don't know why any kind of critique of how Jean is written is taken as a critique of Jean. I don't have an all or nothing view of the character. There are things I like and dislike about 60s Jean, Claremont Jean, Lobdell Jean, Morrison Jean, Taylor Jean, etc....obviously there's a net positive overall since I'm a huge Jean fan and have been for decades, but again, I just call it as I see it, taking the "good" with the "bad" and the "Just ok". It's subjective and doesn't or shouldn't take away from how anyone else perceives things.

[Mercury]

An issue came out this week in which Jean appears and after reading it I decided to discuss her portrayal in a particular scene...especially compared to similar situations in the past. This is not whinning. I don't hate Jean here and I don't hate this issue, in fact, that's why I've kept my posts to this thread instead of bringing it up in the TOM#2 review thread(where others have also expressed portrayal issues, mainly Magneto's) . I don't know why any kind of critique of how Jean is written is taken as a critique of Jean. I don't have an all or nothing view of the character. There are things I like and dislike about 60s Jean, Claremont Jean, Lobdell Jean, Morrison Jean, Taylor Jean, etc....obviously there's a net positive overall since I'm a huge Jean fan and have been for decades, but again, I just call it as I see it, taking the "good" with the "bad" and the "Just ok". It's subjective and doesn't or shouldn't take away from how anyone else perceives things.

If I made you feel like I was claiming or implying that you were "whining" - I certainly never used such a word - I do apologize. The only thing I felt you were doing, and quite unintentionally, I might add, was misremembering the general movements of the plot. There were instances in which you expressed not understanding why Jean didn't "mask" the Hatchery, since she's done so before, when the book clearly shows that she didn't find out there would be the need for masking until, as Polaris said, it was "too late."

I've always enjoyed and appreciated your contributions to this thread, which are informed, informative, and insightful.

[Tank]

An issue came out this week in which Jean appears and after reading it I decided to discuss her portrayal in a particular scene...especially compared to similar situations in the past. This is not whinning. I don't hate Jean here and I don't hate this issue, in fact, that's why I've kept my posts to this thread instead of bringing it up in the TOM#2 review thread(where others have also expressed portrayal issues, mainly Magneto's) . I don't know why any kind of critique of how Jean is written is taken as a critique of Jean. I don't have an all or nothing view of the character. There are things I like and dislike about 60s Jean, Claremont Jean, Lobdell Jean, Morrison Jean, Taylor Jean, etc....obviously there's a net positive overall since I'm a huge Jean fan and have been for decades, but again, I just call it as I see it, taking the "good" with the "bad" and the "Just ok". It's subjective and doesn't or shouldn't take away from how anyone else perceives things.

Keep posting your critiques. We critique because we know Jean is being written out of character and we want to see things differently.

If we turn a blind eye and dont bring it up, how are things supposed change? I guess some Jean fans are willing to accept sub par handling of the character. I’m not.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I mean, with the exception of maybe Storm fans, Marvel Comics cares about what Jean fans say least of all because she is mostly an accessory for the X-Men's main character, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be direct in talking about the way she is used. It's not so much that things will change - they won't until there is an influential writer that specifically wants to rescue her from the traditionalists - but people should post their genuine takes regardless.

[WallStreeter]

Keep posting your critiques. We critique because we know Jean is being written out of character and we want to see things differently.

If we turn a blind eye and dont bring it up, how are things supposed change? I guess some Jean fans are willing to accept sub par handling of the character. I’m not.

I don't have Jean's powers so I don't know for certain (lol) but some of these complaints may have been hard. Jean is no longer just one the quiet council or just acting as Cyclops's cellphone. I do think these complaints are heard.

However, different people have different ideas. I don't mind how Jean is portrayed in Trial of Magneto.

I do not like the ugly Marvel Girl dress with dishwasher clothes. I'd prefer Jean reclaim the codename Phoenix and manifest the power.

I'm not going to constantly complain about things I have no ability to force change in. Ultimately it's Marvel's choice. If a series gets really bad, I voice my objection by not buying.

I do have hope moving forward now that Hickman is out, things will be much better for Jean.

Honestly, Leah's Jean is way better than Hickman's Jean. Hickman wrote Jean as having basically no tk. Leah had her shield the entire team from Magneto and wrote her as a powerful tekekinetic and telepath, but one who just has a greater since of ethics.

Madelyne Pryor is returning, and perhaps we will see a showdown between her and Jean.

But I definitely think people should speak their minds on what they LIKE and what they DON'T LIKE. What's the point if you can't say how you feel?

[Daedra]

Keep posting your critiques. We critique because we know Jean is being written out of character and we want to see things differently.

If we turn a blind eye and dont bring it up, how are things supposed change? I guess some Jean fans are willing to accept sub par handling of the character. I’m not.

Once again, Very well said! People should feel free to discuss each new issue however they like, just ignore the opinion police and keep sharing your unique pov on fresh comics developments

[Spiderfan001]

Keep posting your critiques. We critique because we know Jean is being written out of character and we want to see things differently.

If we turn a blind eye and dont bring it up, how are things supposed change? I guess some Jean fans are willing to accept sub par handling of the character. I’m not.

Even if it doesn't change, these forums are made for discussion.Diff. opinions are how these survive.

[PyroFN]

An issue came out this week in which Jean appears and after reading it I decided to discuss her portrayal in a particular scene...especially compared to similar situations in the past. This is not whinning. I don't hate Jean here and I don't hate this issue, in fact, that's why I've kept my posts to this thread instead of bringing it up in the TOM#2 review thread(where others have also expressed portrayal issues, mainly Magneto's) . I don't know why any kind of critique of how Jean is written is taken as a critique of Jean. I don't have an all or nothing view of the character. There are things I like and dislike about 60s Jean, Claremont Jean, Lobdell Jean, Morrison Jean, Taylor Jean, etc....obviously there's a net positive overall since I'm a huge Jean fan and have been for decades, but again, I just call it as I see it, taking the "good" with the "bad" and the "Just ok". It's subjective and doesn't or shouldn't take away from how anyone else perceives things.

Oh, you are not an example. You post your thoughts well and you do give credit where it’s due. I was never insinuating all critique must be good all the time or anything.

[PyroFN]

Once again, Very well said! People should feel free to discuss each new issue however they like, just ignore the opinion police and keep sharing your unique pov on fresh comics developments

Okay, but they aren’t there to discuss. They are discrediting other peoples opinions by saying, “If they want to accept a subpar handling of the character, that’s their prerogative”. That’s not encouraging discussion at all. That is being snide to people with differing opinions. If they don’t mean it in that way, then it’s a hurdle they have to overcome to not come off that way because it’s exactly how they sound.

Same goes for saying that “Marvel doesn’t care about Jean”. Whether that’s true or not is not our call to make and it isn’t a proper critique.

[Daedra]

Okay, but they aren’t there to discuss. They are discrediting other peoples opinions by saying, “If they want to accept a subpar handling of the character, that’s their prerogative”. That’s not encouraging discussion at all. That is being snide to people with differing opinions. If they don’t mean it in that way, then it’s a hurdle they have to overcome to not come off that way because it’s exactly how they sound.

Same goes for saying that “Marvel doesn’t care about Jean”. Whether that’s true or not is not our call to make and it isn’t a proper critique.

I have seen it go both ways, The issue here is that people should discuss the comics and not each others, just talk about the actual characters and storyline and nothing bad can happen.

[PyroFN]

I have seen it go both ways, The issue here is that people should discuss the comics and not each others, just talk about the actual characters and storyline and nothing bad can happen.

Agreed with what they should do, but that isn’t what they are doing though. They are extending it to judging Marvel and the writers for it and saying they (Marvel) don’t care about Jean for it. There is a difference between critiquing the source material and what they do.

I can say, “I loathe Jeff Lemire’s portrayal of Jean Grey. She is boring, her relationship to Glob is uninspired, she is portrayed horribly in IvX, and her outfit is terrible”. That would be fine. Those opinions are fine.

Extending it though to, “Marvel clearly doesn’t care about Jean” or “people who think otherwise can have that Jean for all I care, but I am hoping for a better Jean” isn’t that. Consider this was around the time Marvel literally was omitting the X-Men from the public eye with multiple sources of writers and other sectors mentioning as much. But I am not gonna be making people feel bad for liking the portrayal in a round-about way or judge the company producing these things as a whole. That is what they are doing.

[Daedra]

Agreed with what they should do, but that isn’t what they are doing though. They are extending it to judging Marvel and the writers for it and saying they (Marvel) don’t care about Jean for it. There is a difference between critiquing the source material and what they do.

I can say, “I loathe Jeff Lemire’s portrayal of Jean Grey. She is boring, her relationship to Glob is uninspired, she is portrayed horribly in IvX, and her outfit is terrible”. That would be fine. Those opinions are fine.

Extending it though to, “Marvel clearly doesn’t care about Jean” or “people who think otherwise can have that Jean for all I care, but I am hoping for a better Jean” isn’t that. Consider this was around the time Marvel literally was omitting the X-Men from the public eye with multiple sources of writers and other sectors mentioning as much. But I am not gonna be making people feel bad for liking the portrayal in a round-about way or judge the company producing these things as a whole. That is what they are doing.

We all need to strive to do better, sometimes we have to be more considerate of each others views and understand that constant complaints can be tiresome and that not everything has to be exactly as we would like it o be…………..other times the best options is just to let it go and let others do as they please, this means enjoy what we enjoy and let people vent their frustration with the writing…..….marvel’s shoulders are wide enough that they can face a bit of criticism.
I understand it’s not easy, it’s an everyday struggle For each one of us.

[PyroFN]

We all need to strive to do better, sometimes we have to be more considerate of each others views and understand that constant complaints can be tiresome and that not everything has to be exactly as we would like it o be…………..other times the best options is just to let it go and let others do as they please, this means enjoy what we enjoy and let people vent their frustration with the writing…..….marvel’s shoulders are wide enough that they can face a bit of criticism.
I understand it’s not easy, it’s an everyday struggle For each one of us.

You’re right that we all have something to work on, but we don’t need to do it all alone. If we trust each other to watch each other’s back for accountability and listen to each other, then it can help us be better.

We can vent, critique, and get angry. That was never the problem. It’s when it extends to something along the lines of,

“Other Jean fans may be fine with mediocre writing, but I will not”

It becomes a problem. That’s not something we should ever let go because there are people out there who would disagree and by all accounts they have a right to feel that way. Are you saying they should let go of what can be considered a jab at them for liking what they like? I don’t think they should, especially if they are not as confident enough to speak their mind.