Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

I really don't, Mercury. That doesn't mean you shouldn't express your ideas. Please, do if you feel it's worth your time. But, please, don't feel disappointed when I don't answer, okay?

Why would I be disappointed? 😂 I mean, I’ve come to realize and respect that you don’t like to debate or discuss certain matters, hence why I wrote, “I understand if you don’t want to discuss this.” I intended to post my thoughts on the page and panels you shared for others, including you, if you see fit, to chime in and comment on.

I come here to discourse about Jean, who has a vast, intricate, and fascinating history. I can be strong in my opinions, but I’m never unwavering. I do enjoy a good debate, though, and prefer it to constantly praising a character, which I obviously do a lot, too. My favorite debates are those I leave feeling as if I’ve been successfully challenged, taught something valuable, and made to look at things in a new light, i.e., in a way I had never considered.

I respect how you feel, though.

[Grinning Soul]

Why would I be disappointed? �� I mean, I’ve come to realize and respect that you don’t like to debate or discuss certain matters, hence why I wrote, “I understand if you don’t want to discuss this.” I intended to post my thoughts on the page and panels you shared for others, including you, if you see fit, to chime in and comment on.

I come here to discourse about Jean, who has a vast, intricate, and fascinating history. I can be strong in my opinions, but I’m never unwavering. I do enjoy a good debate, though, and prefer it to constantly praising a character, which I obviously do a lot, too. My favorite debates are those I leave feeling as if I’ve been successfully challenged, taught something valuable, and made to look at things in a new light, i.e., in a way I had never considered.

I respect how you feel, though.

I guess I just value people's times and I feel bad when I see they dedicated a lot of thought and consideration and I'm not answering to their reply to a post of mine.

I know you wouldn't be writing just for me - that's why I said you shouldn't stop yourself from expressing your opinion - but I thought it would be fair to give you a heads up. That's all.

Thank you for respecting my decision. And have fun. o/

[WallStreeter]

I agree: Jean’s gender didn’t matter to me neither. Anyone pushed that far would succumb to his or her “darkest desires”. A dark desire is necessarily something too shameful to mention: you used to be nice so you want to be awful, you are humble so you want to conquer the world… It’s exactly the contrary of Jean Grey. The Dark Phœnix is not about her, it’s a trap where she falls…

Byrne admitted he hated the team having two powerful women and wanted Phoenix gone. So basically they had her sexually assaulted, made her into a crazy genocidal manic, and then killed her.

That was absolutely AWFUL!

And it would not fly today.

It didn’t even fly in 2006, which is why Kinburg wrote Jean’s trye selg as crazy/violent all along, a theme he repeated in Dark Phoenix 2019. It’s basically why live action Dark Phoenix sucked.

This was in 1980, when some guys just couldn’t have a strong female hero around. Not like today.

[Phoenixx9]

Byrne admitted he hated the team having two powerful women and wanted Phoenix gone. So basically they had her sexually assaulted, made her into a crazy genocidal manic, and then killed her.

That was absolutely AWFUL!

And it would not fly today.

It didn’t even fly in 2006, which is why Kinburg wrote Jean’s trye selg as crazy/violent all along, a theme he repeated in Dark Phoenix 2019. It’s basically why live action Dark Phoenix sucked.

This was in 1980, when some guys just couldn’t have a strong female hero around. Not like today.

Yes, yes he did!

Byrne so hated Jean Phoenix, that there was no inclusion on the cover box and no inclusion on the splash-page with a name/power description, like everyone else had.

Now the nay-sayers will state that Byrne stated that the above was true because Jean was not meant to be around long----I say--duh--of course Jean Phoenix was not going to be around long, because Byrne so hated her. Byrne planned on Killing Jean Phoenix, not only because she so outstripped Ororo in power, but because Jean Phoenix was so popular. She was becoming more popular than Wolverine and Byrne knew it. He also did not like how powerful Jean became now that he saw it in print.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Shoot, it's not super different today. Lol

[Spiderfan001]

I'll comment on your initial post with the page and panels you shared later because I think they underscore some interesting points, but, as Wall Streeter pointed out, Claremont wrote two of those examples years after the original story. Additionally, there are various "literary perspective[s]," including first, second, and third-person perspectives, and the psychological, social power, formalist, historical, biographical, reader-response, archetypal, and gender perspectives (sources: https://literarydevices.net/perspective/; http://www.socialstudies.com/pdf/Figure_7.5.pdf).

In either case, I would say your past interpretations of Scott's telepathic affair with Emma and Logan kissing Jean have taken liberties with the source material based on your perspective(s). While I agree with you that, in the former, Emma was manipulative, and in the latter, what Logan did could be, in some cases, categorized as assault, I don't ascribe the levels of meaning to those instances that you do. For example, I believe once Scott realized what Emma was doing, he became equally if not more responsible for ending their interaction. The same with your views on Logan; I don't feel, as you do, that Jean was frightened and traumatized by his kisses.

Interestingly enough, Mastermind not only kissed and touched Jean inappropriately without her consent (she was mind-controlled, as he, himself, admits), he had her dress in a skimpy frock - a bodice and panties - as he controlled her. By the romantic nature of their interactions, one can assume (though this isn't fact, i.e., not depicted on-panel) that their "marriage" was consummated, and that they shared other intimate moments throughout the course of the story. In either case, while I don't doubt that a dangerous kind of love and sweeping romanticism was one of Jean's "dark desires" (is that really dark?), I don't think it excuses the liberties he took with nor the violations he perpetrated against her mind and body.

I understand if you don't want to discuss this, but, as I noted at the beginning of this post, I will be commenting on the page and panels you posted because they bring up some interesting and valid points.

I too think he "consummated" their "marriage".It's something I'd like to see brought up if and when we get a deep dive into Jean's psyche.How it affected her and still does, and how she grew from it and moved forward.I'd like to Jason and Jean interact, not sweep this under the rug type interact.The making clear that Jean hasn't forgotten and can do him in w/ a thought type interact and that if he steps out of line Krakoa isn't saving him.

I agree: Jean’s gender didn’t matter to me neither. Anyone pushed that far would succumb to his or her “darkest desires”. A dark desire is necessarily something too shameful to mention: you used to be nice so you want to be awful, you are humble so you want to conquer the world… It’s exactly the contrary of Jean Grey. The Dark Phœnix is not about her, it’s a trap where she falls…

Agreed, I don't get why this a gender thing.NO matter what Gender being pushed this far would mess you up.Even if the writer had those intentions as people say above, he still wrote a great story about Jean.Doesn't excuse his motivations ofc.

Also like w/ Mockingbird situation they retconned her being drugged and assualted into cheating on Hawkeye IIRC.They said no one could make her do something she didn't want to IIRC.Can someone confirm?
Anyways my point is why do that writer and some people see SA as a weakness and a problem w/ the victim, I feel that's very backward.And somehow cheating is better....

EDIT:found it

"It reveals that Bobbi was not drugged and r*ped by the Phantom Rider, instead she cheated on Clint with him and just let Clint believe she had been r*ped, because it was easier for Clint to believe that he had been cheated on so she stood still and let Clint kill him without revealing the truth.



"This was calling the male narrative out. My point was to explore and comment on how female characters, their kind of emotional lives aren’t represented… What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

— Congratulations, Chelsea Cain, you just managed to make your disgusting retcon even more disgusting AND you’ve gone down the classic ‘what if she wasn’t r*ped, what if she was just a cheating?’ path."

The retcon that not only turns Bobbi into a cheat and a cold-blooded murderer, but also comes with a side of victim blaming as it’s implied that strong, in control women can’t be r*ped (which is actually at the opposite end of the feminism spectrum from the cover.)

BRUH
The fact that Jean was a victim and then pushed over by this and yet came back and moved forward is inspiring IMO.

Did he push her or did he "control" her, as he says? Did he only make her aware of her desires or did he violate her?




On this, we agree.

EDIT: I should add: It's not about her because, when she becomes Dark Phoenix, she is disassociating, even renouncing her name and identity. The trap consisted of Mastermind's illusions tailored to fit Jean's dark "forbidden" passions for love, power, and control, though not necessarily in a literal sense, i.e., I don't think her fantasies consisted of living during the antebellum period. After all, the ones who favored antebellum aesthetics were Mastermind and the Hellfire Club, not her.

I feel he did make aware and push her desires while also throwing in his own stuff.It's a bit of both IMO.

[WallStreeter]

I too think he "consummated" their "marriage".It's something I'd like to see brought up if and when we get a deep dive into Jean's psyche.How it affected her and still does, and how she grew from it and moved forward.I'd like to Jason and Jean interact, not sweep this under the rug type interact.The making clear that Jean hasn't forgotten and can do him in w/ a thought type interact and that if he steps out of line Krakoa isn't saving him.




Agreed, I don't get why this a gender thing.NO matter what Gender being pushed this far would mess you up.Even if the writer had those intentions as people say above, he still wrote a great story about Jean.Doesn't excuse his motivations ofc.

Also like w/ Mockingbird situation they retconned her being drugged and assualted into cheating on Hawkeye IIRC.They said no one could make her do something she didn't want to IIRC.Can someone confirm?
Anyways my point is why do that writer and some people see SA as a weakness and a problem w/ the victim, I feel that's very backward.And somehow cheating is better....

EDIT:found it

"It reveals that Bobbi was not drugged and raped by the Phantom Rider, instead she cheated on Clint with him and just let Clint believe she had been raped, because it was easier for Clint to believe that he had been cheated on so she stood still and let Clint kill him without revealing the truth.



"This was calling the male narrative out. My point was to explore and comment on how female characters, their kind of emotional lives aren’t represented… What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

— Congratulations, Chelsea Cain, you just managed to make your disgusting retcon even more disgusting AND you’ve gone down the classic ‘what if she wasn’t raped, what if she was just a cheating?’ path."

The retcon that not only turns Bobbi into a cheat and a cold-blooded murderer, but also comes with a side of victim blaming as it’s implied that strong, in control women can’t be raped (which is actually at the opposite end of the feminism spectrum from the cover.)

BRUH



I feel he did make aware and push her desires while also throwing in his own stuff.It's a bit of both IMO.

Male heroes in Marvel don’t get seduced/sexually assaulted and then have to be killed off.

It’s definitely a gender things if you look at some of the repeats of the Dark Phoenix saga. Look at the Goblin Queen. Or when Harris had Sersi driven crazy by Proctor. Or Avengers Assembled and House of M. Only women characters go this kind of crazy after being abused. It’s sick and it’s victim shaming. We also know a lot of men in entertainment are sex offenders so it shouldn’t surprise us that this garbage was written.

[WallStreeter]

Shoot, it's not super different today. Lol

MeToo gas called out some of this awful writers as sex offenders. We now know why they were so against strong women. Or had so much fear of strong women even conceptually.

[Spiderfan001]

Male heroes in Marvel don’t get seduced/sexually assaulted and then have to be killed off.

It’s definitely a gender things if you look at some of the repeats of the Dark Phoenix saga. Look at the Goblin Queen. Or when Harris had Sersi driven crazy by Proctor. Or Avengers Assembled and House of M. Only women characters go this kind of crazy after being abused. It’s sick and it’s victim shaming. We also know a lot of men in entertainment are sex offenders so it shouldn’t surprise us that this garbage was written.

Nightwing, Spider-man and Batman have been SA'd and it's never been brought up again.
Nightwing was clear as day r*pe on panel, and the writer had the audacity to say that it was just nom-con s*x and not r*pe as if there's a diff.
And she went crazy because Phoenix, and Wanda was w/ her kids.There's a lot more to it than just the abuse.Not justifying it but there is context, Phoenix force, Life force and chaos magic are big parts of those stories and the reason they went "insane".

And atleast it's addressed later as compared to male characters who get ignored when r*ped.And while so many complain about female character treatment they all ignore male characters being assaulted and ignored......

Legion also went crazy, he's a male character.

[Mercury]

I'll reply to you folks after I get done squealing about the X-Men #4 preview:

[Havok83]

Even if Jean inherited Phoenix's memories, don't forget that Moira had that relationship with the Phoenix clone, and the Phoenix clone had that relationship with Moira. Jean is not the Phoenix clone.

Yes and no. Jean was and wasnt the PF clone. Especially with the current era recontextualizing what it means to be a clone, it most certainly was Jean. Even if you dont believe that, Moira had her own relationship with Jean long before the Phoenix entered the picture

I'll reply to you folks after I get done squealing about the X-Men #4 preview:

Love it! They dont reference the fact that Jean has memories of the DPS much

[rhaenylis]

Nightwing, Spider-man and Batman have been SA'd and it's never been brought up again.
Nightwing was clear as day r*pe on panel, and the writer had the audacity to say that it was just nom-con s*x and not r*pe as if there's a diff.
And she went crazy because Phoenix, and Wanda was w/ her kids.There's a lot more to it than just the abuse.Not justifying it but there is context, Phoenix force, Life force and chaos magic are big parts of those stories and the reason they went "insane".

And atleast it's addressed later as compared to male characters who get ignored when r*ped.And while so many complain about female character treatment they all ignore male characters being assaulted and ignored......

Legion also went crazy, he's a male character.

Dick also was slut-shamed after Mirage raped him

[Spiderfan001]

Dick also was slut-shamed after Mirage raped him

Yeah, and also his first time was him being taken advantage of by an older women IIRC.And Peter was assulated by an old man(I think a relative) when he was young as well.Peter was also immobalized and saw people killed, then assaulted while tied down and told he will love the one who did the SA as his "queen".Then turned into a Spider-monster and then gave birth to himself. I'm dead serious.

There have been multiple instances where they were attempted but made it out as well.Harley w/ Batman and the Queen w/ Spider-man.Queen wanted his kid before he died and Harley was just having fun but they were stopped.Not to mention Talia al ghul w/ Bruce.Typhoid mary also psychically messed Peter up and kinda forced herself on him.

Kyle Rayner was r*ped by Bueno someone, Deadpool was r*ped by Typhoid mary, Oliver was drugged and r*ped by Shado(and a kid came from this IIRC), Bruce Banner was implied heavily, so was Kingpin(not confirmed on that last 2).It's disgusting how people ignore this.Mr Majestic in wildcats is another one.Guy Gardener, Aquaman, Starman, Apollo. are also been r*ped IIRC

Worst part is none of this is ever even mentioned, whereas stuff like Killgrave and Killing joke are repeatedly mentioned, addressed and shown how it affected them.There's a clear double standard here and so many ignore it.

[Grinning Soul]

I'm glad you guys are talking about it. I spent the last week or so talking to a friend about abuse when the victim is a male and how we mock the victims or don't take it seriously or think they were actually lucky.

If we don't even recognize abuse when real life teachers (particularly females) abuse young male students, will we recognise it when the victim is a fictional grown men? Nope. But this has to change because pop culture actually affects our behavior.

So, while I don't want to get involved into this discussion because I'm having a super stressful day already, I'd just like to thank you for bringing this up, Spiderfan001 and rhaenylis. Thank you.

[Grinning Soul]

Again: just sharing some perspectives.

A quicker video about comedy and abuse: