Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Celestialbodies]

I only remember them talking about her hair. Apparently the reason she had that damn ponytail unlike Storm and Rogue who had big hair was that they saw her as an approachable "girl next door" type rather than a badass (not the exact words, but basically what they mean). That probably has something to do with their overall treatment of her as well...

I remember something about Jean and Beast not supposed to be or planned to be in the series. Then, at the last minute, they were included.

Since childhood I could never understand why they went out of their way to undermine, and dismiss her character, powers, and history!

I've heard arguments they did it so the Phoenix Saga had more punch but a quick review of the Phoenix episodes she was still ineffectual and the butt of the joke even if she had more power. Dark Phoenix was the only time hin the series her character had agency, and allowed to use her powers without passing out.

[WallStreeter]

Huh, maybe a moderator merged the posts.



While so far I don't do that around here much, on the Spidey forums I post a lot of scans, but I also like to use emotes, having to choose which scans I'm gonna post and checking out if I'm using too many emotes really sucks, why the hell do emotes count as pictures anyways?



Yeah, potentially broken powers like this are tricky to manage, nerfing them is the easiest way to handle them, which I can understand to an extent, but if you go too far we get DCAU J'onn... And we don't want a character who's for the most part, the unofficial J'obber.



I'm talking about Wolverine And The X-Men, the cartoon made after X-Men Evolution, and the last X-Men cartoon made before this revival the 90's cartoon is getting:



Be warned if you haven't watched that one and are interested in doing so, the focus is obviously on Wolverine, but as a Jean fan, it'll be annoying to see her as little more than a plot device, it's mostly "Cyclops is whining about Jean being gone", then after a while they add "Oh shit she's Phoenix's host", she's only talked about, or shown in brief flashbacks for the most part, only starts to actually show up at the very last episodes, and while you can say she gets more screentime than say, Iceman once she does show up (And Iceman is only kinda there), she's still a plot device for Phoenix and doesn't develop much as a character.



Yeah, forgiving villains is somewhat controversial by itself, doing it poorly can look like a really annoying favoritism, even if it's not the case.



Yeah, specially at the beginning, they could come up with stuff that looks weird now.

Like, I'm reading X-Men since the beginning, and Xavier could actually detect mutants without Cerebro, which he does when he detects Blob:



(X-Men#3 vol 1)

And he only created Cerebro 'cause he was leaving the X-Men to Cyclops, and Cerebro explicitly didn't need a telepath to work:



(X-Men#7)

But anyways, the biggest downside of that era is that, since they didn't really know what worked, with a specific comic, they had to be creative to make an impression, and while we had success stories like Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, the X-Men failed at that, and after a while they were essentially cancelled, until Giant Size X-Men, and then soon after, Claremont, came around, and what a resurrection that was lol.





I was joking about the fainting returning by the way, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Honestly, even if I wasn't aware that one of the producers is a Jean fan, I would have my doubts that Jean would still be this much of a loser, since Jean failing so much is one of the most widely mocked things about the cartoon, so reviving it without trying to improve at least that would be a really moronic decision.

I'm actually kinda fearing she may become too strong and overshadow other characters, but we'll see what'll happens once it's actually out.

If Jean overshadows the other characters then she should be allowed to. Give her own series if she’s popular enough.

Look at WandaVision. Even Agatha Harkness her own show. Why not Jean?

[Phoenixx9]

They probably added Jean (and Beast since he was in the comic story) in order to do the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga.

In the series as in the comics, Phoenix did nothing in combat against the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. But in the animated, Jean did not even get to fight Firelord, and when she scanned the skies, she could not (did not) prevent Oracle from sensing her probe!

I hope Jean gets better treatment in this new series.

[5cents]

Both Jean and Beast were support characters for the series. Though Beast was used more effectively since they gave him the smart scientist role. I think Jean’s role was the one that everyone trusted. One of the creators liked Jean because she didn’t have cool powers.

Catherine has said when fans ask her to do Jean she feels like she is doing a disservice to Jean (though she has said Jean was the heart of the team). I understand since Jean’s memorable lines involve Scott!

[Lukmendes]

Has anyone ever been able to get a clear answer from the XTAS creators about exactly why Jean was portrayed so horribly? It reached levels where it seemed the creators got a kick out of humiliating her weekly. Which was such a stark contrast to the strong portrayals of Storm and Rogue.


Some have suggested that Beast and Jean weren't originally apart of the series and were "punished" for being forced on the team behind the series. But Beast was one of the best developed characters in the series even warranting a crossover with Spiderman.

Honestly, it's probably someone who had a beef with her for existing lol.

I remember reading somewhere that Sailor Moon's anime made Tuxedo Mask more useless in comparison to the manga where he apparently did more, and he got nerfed because the director didn't like him, so it's probably something like that with Jean.

It could also be a situation where she didn't do much at first and they didn't notice her uselessness (DCAU's Justice League had Superman looking much weaker in the first season, and apparently producers didn't notice that at first, but fixed him after fans complained), but honestly, kinda happens too much to be a case where they were just uncaring enough for her to be like, that, so again, probably someone annoyed at her for existing lol.

If Jean overshadows the other characters then she should be allowed to. Give her own series if she’s popular enough.

This is a team cartoon, while it's fine for one character to look really badass once in a while, since it shows why they're even in the team, having one character doing too much, too often can make you wonder why the rest are even there, besides cheerleading I guess...

Look at WandaVision. Even Agatha Harkness her own show. Why not Jean?

If Wolverine, or Jean, or Morph, or Negasonic can become popular enough to get their own show, fine, I just think it's a bad idea to make a team cartoon where the team can look redundant so one character can shine, it's one of the problems I have with Wolverine and the X-Men's cartoon.

[WallStreeter]

Honestly, it's probably someone who had a beef with her for existing lol.

I remember reading somewhere that Sailor Moon's anime made Tuxedo Mask more useless in comparison to the manga where he apparently did more, and he got nerfed because the director didn't like him, so it's probably something like that with Jean.

It could also be a situation where she didn't do much at first and they didn't notice her uselessness (DCAU's Justice League had Superman looking much weaker in the first season, and apparently producers didn't notice that at first, but fixed him after fans complained), but honestly, kinda happens too much to be a case where they were just uncaring enough for her to be like, that, so again, probably someone annoyed at her for existing lol.



This is a team cartoon, while it's fine for one character to look really badass once in a while, since it shows why they're even in the team, having one character doing too much, too often can make you wonder why the rest are even there, besides cheerleading I guess...



If Wolverine, or Jean, or Morph, or Negasonic can become popular enough to get their own show, fine, I just think it's a bad idea to make a team cartoon where the team can look redundant so one character can shine, it's one of the problems I have with Wolverine and the X-Men's cartoon.

If it is meant for a character to outshine other characters they will. It has to do with how the mass audiences, not an individual, like a character.

It’s not like the MCU doesn’t know how to make money. Lol

[Mercury]

Huh, maybe a moderator merged the posts.

That's what I figured.

While so far I don't do that around here much, on the Spidey forums I post a lot of scans, but I also like to use emotes, having to choose which scans I'm gonna post and checking out if I'm using too many emotes really sucks, why the hell do emotes count as pictures anyways?

I hate that emoticons count as pictures, too. It makes no sense. Also, your style of writing reminds me of two other Spidey fans I've conversed with on here (i.e., the X-Books). You guys have this breezy and endearing way of writing, lol.

Yeah, potentially broken powers like this are tricky to manage, nerfing them is the easiest way to handle them, which I can understand to an extent, but if you go too far we get DCAU J'onn... And we don't want a character who's for the most part, the unofficial J'obber.

How is telepathy a "potentially broken" power, though? Also, I just wish the writers would be more creative in working around powerful characters without resorting to nerfing them.

[QUOTE=Lukmendes;5822330]I'm talking about Wolverine And The X-Men, the cartoon made after X-Men Evolution, and the last X-Men cartoon made before this revival the 90's cartoon is getting[/img]

Ah, no wonder! I was like, "Wait a minute. Emma was not featured in the original animated series. I've never watched WatXM. It seemed to veer too far away from the comics for my tastes.

Be warned if you haven't watched that one and are interested in doing so, the focus is obviously on Wolverine, but as a Jean fan, it'll be annoying to see her as little more than a plot device, it's mostly "Cyclops is whining about Jean being gone", then after a while they add "Oh shit she's Phoenix's host", she's only talked about, or shown in brief flashbacks for the most part, only starts to actually show up at the very last episodes, and while you can say she gets more screentime than say, Iceman once she does show up (And Iceman is only kinda there), she's still a plot device for Phoenix and doesn't develop much as a character.

This is precisely what I figured and why I avoided it.

Like, I'm reading X-Men since the beginning, and Xavier could actually detect mutants without Cerebro, which he does when he detects Blob...he only created Cerebro 'cause he was leaving the X-Men to Cyclops, and Cerebro explicitly didn't need a telepath to work.

Good catch! I recently sped read the first 137 issues to cover Jean's feats. Here's the thread: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865 Note: If you're inclined to check out the thread, keep clicking "Show Replies" until you reach issue #137; it's a long thread. Also, here's thread two, in which I cover Jean's origins from Bizarre Adventures and her return, along with X-Factor: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...32583046991872 I haven't updated the thread in a while, but I will be picking back up on it shortly.)

Honestly, even if I wasn't aware that one of the producers is a Jean fan, I would have my doubts that Jean would still be this much of a loser, since Jean failing so much is one of the most widely mocked things about the cartoon, so reviving it without trying to improve at least that would be a really moronic decision.

I'm actually kinda fearing she may become too strong and overshadow other characters, but we'll see what'll happens once it's actually out.

Obviously, I want her to overshadow everyone! Mwahahahaha!

So, xmen 97, i wonder if the animation will be similar in theme to TAS, or more modern in its look, style. If they just picking up where TAS left off, wonder what theyÂ’ll do.

I believe the general style and essence will be the same, but the final product will be much sleeker and more elegant.

Will Jean know the truth about Moira's lives and still be "in good" with Prof Xavier?

I really hope Jean finds out and gives Xavier a good talking to. I picture a scene like this, lol:

What makes you so certain of that?

Pepe Larraz liked a handful of tweets, including one of mine, that speculated he was working on a new costume for Jean after the cover for issue #8 - the one with MODOK holding Jean's masked - dropped. Ever since the last issue (#4), in which Jean has a dream with Emma, who says about her current costume, "It's not for me...or you," a few of us have been speculating that they're going to be changing her uniform soon.



Larraz liking all of those tweets - mind you, we've asked him about and begged him to change her costume before and he's never liked those tweets - was a little too coincidental. In either case, all of that aside, I just have a hunch she'll be out of the dress by this time next year.

Has anyone ever been able to get a clear answer from the XTAS creators about exactly why Jean was portrayed so horribly? It reached levels where it seemed the creators got a kick out of humiliating her weekly. Which was such a stark contrast to the strong portrayals of Storm and Rogue.

They probably did it for contrast against her power-up as Phoenix. Also, she was generally portrayed as the den mother, which are characters that usually get nerfed. I don't think any of the creators actively disliked her as a character, but what do I know.

Since childhood I could never understand why they went out of their way to undermine, and dismiss her character, powers, and history!

I've heard arguments they did it so the Phoenix Saga had more punch but a quick review of the Phoenix episodes she was still ineffectual and the butt of the joke even if she had more power. Dark Phoenix was the only time hin the series her character had agency, and allowed to use her powers without passing out.

Yeah, overall, she got the worst treatment. I find it apropos that, so far, she's the one character that has received the most drastic redesign. And, of course, isn't it kismet that the executive producer of the show is a big Jean fan? (We follow each other.)

[Mercury]

I tweeted this out earlier today:

The Phoenix Saga That Never Was: In the late-1990s, Eisner Award-nominated writer @StevenTSeagle was intent on telling a Phoenix story that examined “whether the actual Jean Grey would have succumbed to the dark side the way the cocoon-not-Jean-Grey-thing did.” 1/7





Seagle’s Phoenix arc began in Uncanny X-Men #353, which showed Jean using her telekinesis to clear a mass of snow—something Scott thought impossible for her to do w/o straining her greatly. (NOTE: Jean had accomplished greater telekinetic feats before sans the Phoenix Force). 2/7

[Mercury]

In the next issue (#354), Jean nonchalantly dons the Phoenix uniform for the first time, shocking Scott. (Technically, this is the first time she, i.e., not a clone of her, appeared as Phoenix.) In issue #355, to Jean’s disappointment, Scott expresses his alarm and concern. 3/7





Jean makes it clear to Scott that she is in her right mind and that her decision to claim the Phoenix name and uniform is her attempt to end her pain and empower herself while putting old “ghosts” to rest. In issue #356, Scott shares his concern over Jean’s powers with Hank. 4/7

[Mercury]

Coinciding with Seagle’s work, which, in Uncanny X-Men #357, showed Jean surprising Hank and Warren as Phoenix, Chris Claremont featured Jean, who was being controlled by Viper, dressed in an alternate Phoenix costume and manifesting the signature firebird in Wolverine #125. 5/7

[Mercury]

Claremont’s depiction of a Phoenix-imbued Jean reinforced Seagle’s work with the character. Unfortunately, as noted by Seagle, “based on various regime changes and edicts,” he never got the chance to complete his proposed Phoenix arc and left Marvel not long after. 6/7

[Phoenixx9]

I think Scott meant that Jean would not be able to move enough snow without tiring. Snow especially wet snow can be heavy! Even a shovel-ful can be heavy. But he is not an expert on Jean's powers or her limits.

For instance, just look at how much snow Jean moved in that one attempt!

[Mercury]

While Jean would continue to be referred to as Phoenix and wear both the classic Phoenix regalia and, during the X-Men Revolution era, a newer Phoenix-inspired uniform, her connection to the Phoenix Force wouldn’t be further explored until 2001, in X-Men Forever & New X-Men. 7/7





End.

Link: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...36099063111680

[Mercury]

I think Scott meant that Jean would not be able to move enough snow without tiring. Snow especially wet snow can be heavy! Even a shovel-ful can be heavy. But is not an expert on Jean's powers or her limits.

For instance, just look at how much snow Jean moved in that one attempt!

Oh, that's exactly what he meant. Still, Jean had accomplished greater feats than that back in the 60s, during Stan Lee's run. For instance:

[Mercury]

Also, one of my favorite feats of hers, which was written by Lee:







She's always been powerful - in my opinion, the most powerful of the original five - and was depicted beautifully by Lee.