Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Dam]

Serious question. Not trying to be challenging or anything.

You have no problem with Jean (or any telepath) forcing Lorna (or anyone) to be honest?

For me it was weird the first part, but then with the explanation I understood, Jean was that friend for her. Sometimes we need that kind of friend, the one who pushes us to do what we really want.
spoilers:

It wasn't about boundaries, it was because Lorna lost her faith in herself, the whole issues was about Lorna no trusting herself, basically.

end of spoilers

[Mercury]

She didn't force her to be honest. She spoke her first thought and this voting session was pimped as pure honesty between all involved. So i would put the onus on lorna to not take part if she didn't want to be honest. All jean did was stick to the parameters for what the moment was suppose to be about and lorna admits herself jean was right. The difference with Bobby imo is it was personal, it was a moment between them, and Bendis had bobby be upset whereas lorna was curious and so she spoke to jean like an adult and was satisfied with the answer.

I agree on most of this.

While I understand people taking issue with Jean telling Bobby that she knew about his sexuality, Bobby was also suffering. In fact, Bobby admits to Jean that he thought he "really thought [he] was crazy," which, I believe, was the impetus for Jean stepping in.

My coming out unfolded in much the same way when my mother and best friend on separate occasions let me know that they knew I was gay before I had a chance to reveal it to them. I experienced a flash of anger followed by great relief.

[jwatson]

For me it was weird the first part, but then with the explanation I understood, Jean was that friend for her. Sometimes we need that kind of friend, the one who pushes us to do what we really want.
spoilers:

It wasn't about boundaries, it was because Lorna lost her faith in herself, the whole issues was about Lorna no trusting herself, basically.

end of spoilers

That's exactly how i read it because i stepped back instinctively at the first part and it was still lingering until explanation later.

[jwatson]

I agree on most of this.

While I understand people taking issue with Jean telling Bobby that she knew about his sexuality, Bobby was also suffering. In fact, Bobby admits to Jean that he thought he "really thought [he] was crazy," which, I believe, was the impetus for Jean stepping in.

My coming out unfolded in much the same way when my mother and best friend on separate occasions let me know that they knew I was gay before I had a chance to reveal it to them. I experienced a flash of anger followed by great relief.

I have since changed my mind on it personally, i mean i don't see how you can out someone to themselves if i REALLY think about it. In the sense that even if it is deeply, deeply, buried someone telling you your gay doesn't just make you gay so for you to accept it on some level you must be questioning something. Like would it be different if Wolverine who has extra senses was like "Kid your gay" and Bobby thought about it and was like "oh yes! i am so gay." But objectively speaking i do think it muddied the waters of bobby's coming out because he needed a "telepath" to tell him. But that's on bendis.

[Mercury]

Again... not trying to annoy you, okay? Just understand each other.

Do you see that sometimes people aren't "honest" because they can't? Because they're not ready and they have other issues to deal with *before* they can be "honest"?

I know this was directed at jwatson, but I want to chime in. I completely understand the point that you are making but don't think it applies in this case. L, both with her actions and words, makes it clear that she wasn't forced to do anything she didn't really want to do. As jwatson pointed out, at any moment she could have said, "No, I don't want this," and pulled out of the elections.

I think it is characteristic of Jean to use her telepathy to stop someone's emotional pain and turmoil or to prevent them from making a decision she knows for certain they would regret.

[Dam]

I have since changed my mind on it personally, i mean i don't see how you can out someone to themselves if i REALLY think about it. In the sense that even if it is deeply, deeply, buried someone telling you your gay doesn't just make you gay so for you to accept it on some level you must be questioning something. Like would it be different if Wolverine who has extra senses was like "Kid your gay" and Bobby thought about it and was like "oh yes! i am so gay." But objectively speaking i do think it muddied the waters of bobby's coming out because he needed a "telepath" to tell him. But that's on bendis.

I really didnt like that to be honest, but I took it like they were teenagers, Jean was written like she couldn't control herself

[Grinning Soul]

I see your point i just disagree. If your not ready to be honest in an honest moment don't be part of it. When they called her name she could have said "no" there and moved on. So what if she said anyone but me and they still voted for her, would that be forcing her to do something she didn't want to do? Would she had stepped down then?

Maybe she would step down. We just don't know. And that *is* the whole problem.

Like I said, it may have been a good thing for Lorna, but Jean's MO was never the "ends justify the means". That's Emma's MO and she's mostly very successful at it.

But that's *not* Jean.

edit: and your not annoying me at all. ^_^. Your very civil with your ideas and opinions.

Thanks. I try. But I recognise sometimes written language makes the intentions come across very wrong.

I'm really curious about your perspective on this because mine is very different, but I like to consider others too. :)

[Mercury]

I have since changed my mind on it personally, i mean i don't see how you can out someone to themselves if i REALLY think about it. In the sense that even if it is deeply, deeply, buried someone telling you your gay doesn't just make you gay so for you to accept it on some level you must be questioning something. Like would it be different if Wolverine who has extra senses was like "Kid your gay" and Bobby thought about it and was like "oh yes! i am so gay." But objectively speaking i do think it muddied the waters of bobby's coming out because he needed a "telepath" to tell him. But that's on bendis.

I get what you mean. To be fair, though, Bendis did have Bobby articulate his reasons for staying in the closet quite clearly.

[Mercury]

Maybe she would step down. We just don't know. And that *is* the whole problem.

But we do know because she didn't step down.

Like I said, it may have been a good thing for Lorna, but Jean's MO was never the "ends justify the means. That's Emma's MO and she's mostly very successful at it.

But that's *not* Jean.

But it is Jean. She's been written doing this and going as far as mindwiping people over the course of 30+ years.

[Mercury]

For me it was weird the first part, but then with the explanation I understood, Jean was that friend for her. Sometimes we need that kind of friend, the one who pushes us to do what we really want.
spoilers:

It wasn't about boundaries, it was because Lorna lost her faith in herself, the whole issues was about Lorna no trusting herself, basically.

end of spoilers

I love this take.

[Grinning Soul]

For me it was weird the first part, but then with the explanation I understood, Jean was that friend for her. Sometimes we need that kind of friend, the one who pushes us to do what we really want.
spoilers:

It wasn't about boundaries, it was because Lorna lost her faith in herself, the whole issues was about Lorna no trusting herself, basically.

end of spoilers

There is a difference between saying to a friend: "Stop second-guessing yourself. Don't you actually want it? Go for it!"

That is the friendly push sometimes is very welcome and makes us take chances on ourselves.

spoilers:

But that's not what Jean did. She *made* Lorna say it. There's a world of difference there. It doesn't matter if it ended up being a good thing for Lorna. It doesn't change the nature of Jean's action.

end of spoilers

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Also remember when Jean "forced" teen Warren to want to stay in the future against his will back when the teen versions had the chance to go back to the past...

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks for your input, guys. But I don't want to extend myself here and end up being accused of bringing negativity to the thread. So I'll just shut up because I think I said what I had to say on the matter already anyway.

Have fun. o/

[Grinning Soul]

Also remember when Jean "forced" teen Warren to want to stay in the future against his will back when the teen versions had the chance to go back to the past...

Which is my favourite example of how OOC Bendis wrote her because... "Time travel, learning about one's life/death, trauma... I get to write her however I want".

It is still OOC.

[Mercury]

Also remember when Jean "forced" teen Warren to want to stay in the future against his will back when the teen versions had the chance to go back to the past...

I remember it well. Her behavior was understandable, considering her circumstances, and her actions were appropriately addressed. At least when she's done these things, she's done so with the best intentions versus out of spite or to be malicious.