Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[johnnysv75]

I can be fully transparent, I'm a huge fan of Hickman I think he has interesting ideas, and his plots are exactly what the current era of X-men desperately needs. I think he has a tremendously handle on the majority of his ever expanding cast, and I think he moreso than any writer before him, certainly in the modern era. Is unafraid to experiment, but also push for characters into new and exciting roles. My absolute FAVORITE thing about this era is how well he has seamlessly included so many character all across his books in meaningful ways.


That said he has a proclivity to using specific characters and those few usually gray-area types receive the most developments. He also will make sure to establish them in ways that are instrumental to whatever story he's telling. While those he isn't fond adopt personality transplants, which brings us to his Jean who remains the weakest version of the character by far, and he has yet to use her in 2 years in anyway other than reacting to narrative changes, she is never responsible for the shifts. And I don't know why he's chosen this particular characterization for her, but it is so bland, boring, and uninspired.

I think Hickman is horrible at writing characters. He has built a great world, but he seems to care more about the mythology than the plot and he doesn’t seem interested in the characters. They are just there to tell us what is going on, and I actually don’t care for any of them. I haven’t seen any character growth during his run. The set-up was good, placing all the characters on the board, tweaking them, giving some of them new back stories. But since then, nothing has really happened characterwise.

[whitecrown]

I can be fully transparent, I'm a huge fan of Hickman I think he has interesting ideas, and his plots are exactly what the current era of X-men desperately needs. I think he has a tremendously handle on the majority of his ever expanding cast, and I think he moreso than any writer before him, certainly in the modern era. Is unafraid to experiment, but also push for characters into new and exciting roles. My absolute FAVORITE thing about this era is how well he has seamlessly included so many character all across his books in meaningful ways.

That said he has a proclivity to using specific characters and those few usually gray-area types receive the most developments. He also will make sure to establish them in ways that are instrumental to whatever story he's telling. While those he isn't fond adopt personality transplants, which brings us to his Jean who remains the weakest version of the character by far, and he has yet to use her in 2 years in anyway other than reacting to narrative changes, she is never responsible for the shifts. And I don't know why he's chosen this particular characterization for her, but it is so bland, boring, and uninspired.

I used to be a fan of Hickman especially his FF. However, his Avengers run made it very clear that he was focused more on plotline than characters and other users here have pointed out the misogyny of how he treated Carol Danvers there. Hickman reminds me of Morrison in that he has his own concepts which don't really fit the X-Men and he has no compunction about molding and misshaping the X-Men to fit the storyline he wants to write. I can very easily see most of what he's introduced being retconned, just like with Morrison's run, after he finally leaves and hopefully soon.

You say he pushes for characters into new and exciting roles but that's really only true for his handful of favorites. There are more mutants in his run than in any other X-Men run but about 90% of them are just wallpaper and only a handful of his pet characters are the ones getting the main spotlight. Long-time mainstays like Jean and Storm have been reduced to just standing around. From what I remember, Hickman was never a fan of Jean since he used to say she held Scott back and wasn't his true love so going by that, I should really never have had faith that he cared about the character since I believe he also implied (or maybe flat out said) way back in the early 2010s that he thinks Jean should have stayed dead. Maybe that's also why he's relegated her back to Marvel Girl, since he's only interested in using her in her incarnation prior to her Dark Phoenix Saga death.

[whitecrown]

I think Hickman is horrible at writing characters. He has built a great world, but he seems to care more about the mythology than the plot and he doesn’t seem interested in the characters. They are just there to tell us what is going on, and I actually don’t care for any of them. I haven’t seen any character growth during his run. The set-up was good, placing all the characters on the board, tweaking them, giving some of them new back stories. But since then, nothing has really happened characterwise.

Yes to all of this. The characters are just mere instruments for him to puppet around to serve the plot and worldbuilding, which frankly always get super convoluted, whether it was his FF or Avengers runs. He will retcon or write characters OOC just to serve his story and I couldn't describe or explain any of the characters and their growth in the last few years besides the weird isolationism the X-Men have imposed on themselves. Between that and kidnapping Franklin Richards, because he belongs with "his kind," I do not recognize these current X-Men at all. I know when Hickman's run started, some fans told Claremont about the current X-Men and he was flabbergasted at how they are being written now and how they aren't the X-Men at all. Hickman's runs always sustain themselves on hype and mystery as to what he's building too, but more often that not, there's very little substance or longevity.

[andreikes]

I didn't see any other hickman titles. But what he does with Jean is something quite regressive and apparent. I mean ... the costume, that panic that she has in the middle of the battle and in the last title '' forget '' that she has telekinesis. It's just regression. I don't see that with Storm or psylock, they just had less '' screen time ''

[Rang10]

Yes to all of this. The characters are just mere instruments for him to puppet around to serve the plot and worldbuilding, which frankly always get super convoluted, whether it was his FF or Avengers runs. He will retcon or write characters OOC just to serve his story and I couldn't describe or explain any of the characters and their growth in the last few years besides the weird isolationism the X-Men have imposed on themselves. Between that and kidnapping Franklin Richards, because he belongs with "his kind," I do not recognize these current X-Men at all. I know when Hickman's run started, some fans told Claremont about the current X-Men and he was flabbergasted at how they are being written now and how they aren't the X-Men at all. Hickman's runs always sustain themselves on hype and mystery as to what he's building too, but more often that not, there's very little substance or longevity.

Hickman is plot oriented, many things happening now makes very little sense with the story of x-men. he really is a ideas man.
other problem is how he is moving so slow with his x-men run.

Exactly, I don't know how there can be any Hickman fans on here when he derailed Jean's most prominent period and sidelined her. I have no intention of reading any X-Men comics until this hack has been replaced by somebody else so the quicker the X-Men come into the MCU, the better, so that the comics match up.

It also didn't help that Jean was leading the X-Men in a period where Scott and Logan were both dead. I'm fine with Logan returning because that was inevitable and I'd like to see him interact with Jean, but Jean really needed that time away from Scott considering how the second he comes back, the writers treat Jean like his property and like the X-Men can't function unless the stories revolve around him again. He needed to stay dead longer.

The good thing from Logan is that he can have his solo and on a secondary team like x-force doing his own thing.
Now Scott has this trend of making everything about him and puting Jean with him, erasing her chracterization as a leader and as competent fighter.
Jean is not even th eonly character regressed

X-men Red was before Marel decided to invest onx-men again and was done on the way, they only planned blue and gold.

[whitecrown]

I didn't see any other hickman titles. But what he does with Jean is something quite regressive and apparent. I mean ... the costume, that panic that she has in the middle of the battle and in the last title '' forget '' that she has telekinesis. It's just regression. I don't see that with Storm or psylock, they just had less '' screen time ''

I have not been keeping up with this run for reasons like this but I had no idea that she literally forgot she has one of her powers. I already thought the way Psylocke and Storm have been sidelined was bad enough, but this might be even worse. This treatment is abhorrent. I know Hickman said he felt Jean was only the love of Scott's life when he was a boy and she kept him from growing up and becoming a man, so is this why he feels that for Scott and Jean to be together, it can only work if she's still the young pre-Phoenix version of herself? How misogynistic.

[whitecrown]

Hickman is plot oriented, many things happening now makes very little sense with the story of x-men. he really is a ideas man.
other problem is how he is moving so slow with his x-men run.



The good thing from Logan is that he can have his solo and on a secondary team like x-force doing his own thing.
Now Scott has this trend of making everything about him and puting Jean with him, erasing her chracterization as a leader and as competent fighter.
Jean is not even th eonly character regressed

X-men Red was before Marel decided to invest onx-men again and was done on the way, they only planned blue and gold.

The amount of retcons he's introduced, especially with all the Moira stuff, basically breaks all the canon history of the X-Men. Even Morrison never did that and I'm no fan of him. And slow burning plots are a thing of his. He did that with FF and Avengers as well but it feels even more slowly paced here, I guess because of the pandemic and all the delays. I have no idea what endgame he's envisioned though but I hope we get to it quickly so he can leave and a competent writer can come back on board. As usual, it's mainly the female characters suffering, the ones who aren't a fake blonde that is.

I've seen others also rightfully point out that while Wolverine was thrown into every book, he never really took the spotlight. He's just there and sometimes only has a cameo appearance. With Cyclops, absolutely everything has to be about him and no other character can take precedence. I don't know if the writers feel that's some sort of karmic balance for his treatment in the movies but frankly I think we need more of his depiction from there in the comics.

I wish X-Men Red had lasted much longer.

[Kingdom X]

I've always felt like Jean could have been the central figure of this era instead of Moira. If we're telling a story about a woman who has lived many different lives then why not go with the OG X-man with a penchant for resurrection and who also used to be a godly being.

[whitecrown]

I've always felt like Jean could have been the central figure of this era instead of Moira. If we're telling a story about a woman who has lived many different lives then why not go with the OG X-man with a penchant for resurrection and who also used to be a godly being.

Hmm interesting point. Especially if it's established that Jean has lived multiple lives as the Phoenix prior to this life. Not to mention Jean also had a long history with Xavier and Moira and I think Claremont at one pointed wanted to do some series about Jean's adventures with them prior to joining the X-Men. However, it's clear Hickman never cared for Phoenix Jean beyond the significance of her death and he seemed to prefer her dead so I can't see him giving her a major role like Remender planned for Jean in his run.

[Havok83]

Hmm interesting point. Especially if it's established that Jean has lived multiple lives as the Phoenix prior to this life. Not to mention Jean also had a long history with Xavier and Moira and I think Claremont at one pointed wanted to do some series about Jean's adventures with them prior to joining the X-Men. However, it's clear Hickman never cared for Phoenix Jean beyond the significance of her death and he seemed to prefer her dead so I can't see him giving her a major role like Remender planned for Jean in his run.

Like what? I hadnt heard this

[BESTXMAN]

Hmm interesting point. Especially if it's established that Jean has lived multiple lives as the Phoenix prior to this life. Not to mention Jean also had a long history with Xavier and Moira and I think Claremont at one pointed wanted to do some series about Jean's adventures with them prior to joining the X-Men. However, it's clear Hickman never cared for Phoenix Jean beyond the significance of her death and he seemed to prefer her dead so I can't see him giving her a major role like Remender planned for Jean in his run.

This would have been really stupid

[whitecrown]

Like what? I hadnt heard this

https://www.cbr.com/rick-reminder-un...psylocke-dead/
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/rick...-2014-x-plans/

[Rang10]

I have not been keeping up with this run for reasons like this but I had no idea that she literally forgot she has one of her powers. I already thought the way Psylocke and Storm have been sidelined was bad enough, but this might be even worse. This treatment is abhorrent. I know Hickman said he felt Jean was only the love of Scott's life when he was a boy and she kept him from growing up and becoming a man, so is this why he feels that for Scott and Jean to be together, it can only work if she's still the young pre-Phoenix version of herself? How misogynistic.

Really misogynistic the notion that a woman make a guy a man or a boy. It doesn't even makes sense because Jean and Scott started dating when they were adults, married, raised Cable together.
I think you are into something about Jean, that is the only explanation for the regress on her character. The opening of first x-men issue is Xavier with really young teenage Scott.

https://www.cbr.com/rick-reminder-un...psylocke-dead/
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/rick...-2014-x-plans/

I think he was going to use teen Jean just like Bendis did

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I used to be a fan of Hickman especially his FF. However, his Avengers run made it very clear that he was focused more on plotline than characters and other users here have pointed out the misogyny of how he treated Carol Danvers there. Hickman reminds me of Morrison in that he has his own concepts which don't really fit the X-Men and he has no compunction about molding and misshaping the X-Men to fit the storyline he wants to write. I can very easily see most of what he's introduced being retconned, just like with Morrison's run, after he finally leaves and hopefully soon.

You say he pushes for characters into new and exciting roles but that's really only true for his handful of favorites. There are more mutants in his run than in any other X-Men run but about 90% of them are just wallpaper and only a handful of his pet characters are the ones getting the main spotlight. Long-time mainstays like Jean and Storm have been reduced to just standing around. From what I remember, Hickman was never a fan of Jean since he used to say she held Scott back and wasn't his true love so going by that, I should really never have had faith that he cared about the character since I believe he also implied (or maybe flat out said) way back in the early 2010s that he thinks Jean should have stayed dead. Maybe that's also why he's relegated her back to Marvel Girl, since he's only interested in using her in her incarnation prior to her Dark Phoenix Saga death.

You have a link with Hickman saying any of these things about Jean?

That would make a ton of sense given how he writes her, but I don't think I've seen quotes of him saying this stuff. Not surprising at all if we go off the way he presents the character.

[loke13]

Ah the Hickman hate circle wank and hyperbolic discussion continues.

It's honestly weird to see some Jean fans paint the (very misogynistic) narrative that Jean's character has been regressed to a glorified housewife who only lives to prop up Cyclops. It's like some of you are determined to rob Jean of any agency.