Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Phoenixx9]

As I have said repeatedly.........PHOENIX ONLY!!

Dark Phoenix who? lol

Jean IS Phoenix and can handle the power. Jean IS Power!

[Gnostic]

I never saw the m knight movie. But I think your question actually highlights a bigger question: was dark Phoenix a clone, or was she possessed, or was she mentally ill? I’m not actually asking people here. I’d be dying to do a poll to see what people think of as “the” definitive dark Phoenix edition. You have the original idea, the retcon, and everything in between. I bet a lot of people have different ideas of the “one true actual story” especially among non comic fans.

Spit/Glass’s portrayal of DID isn’t anywhere near as bad as The Last Stand’s portrayal. Because the character with DID has an actual motive for his crimes unlike X3’s Phoenix, which depicted it as inherent behavior.

As for your other point: I think most non-comic fans think the Dark Phoenix Saga is about Jean being possessed and thus having no agency. Due to the animated adaptations from the 90s show and Wolverine & The X-Men.

Because I’ve seen a lot of reviews of the Dark Phoenix movie project that idea onto the film. Despite the fact that it was promoted to be about Jean descending into madness as a result of her dark side/repressed trauma and the cosmic energy just unleashed issues she already had. Most notable example being Doug Walker (The Nostalgia Critic) who uploaded a review a few months ago and jumping to that conclusion.

[Micabe]

I think the Dark Phoenix Story has been done at this point (not only by the X-Men movies but also by literally EVERY other genre fantasy/science fiction movie and series ever).

WHAT WE NEED IS THE PHOENIX STORY! Jean flying into space saving the universe. the end.

First Jean needs a change of costume... She can't go flying about space dressed like a cheerleader.

[Mercury]

Including Xavier?...

Oh hell no...

But yeah, I agree with his mentality about stories like this needing time, and super-heroes in particular benefit far more from other medium when compared to movies, specifically because movies generally have to tell a big story to be worth it, while a series can have smaller stories that can introduce more characters who start as nobodies, but can grow to become much bigger.

Feige and the MCU in general did handle the Infinity War storyline quite beautifully, but yeah, a series, be it animated or live-action, would be optimal.

Honestly though? I think cartoons are the best possible medium, since tv series with actors and whatnot have all of those budget issues that limit how fights can be shown, and while you don't need awesome fights to develop characters, they're still super-heroes, and awesome fights are better to be there, and not to mention that tv series doesn't have to worry as much about younger characters aging.

I think a live-action series could work just as well, but I get your point. I wouldn't mind an animated X-Men series with the animation style and quality of What If...?.

I never saw the m knight movie. But I think your question actually highlights a bigger question: was dark Phoenix a clone, or was she possessed, or was she mentally ill? I’m not actually asking people here. I’d be dying to do a poll to see what people think of as “the” definitive dark Phoenix edition. You have the original idea, the retcon, and everything in between. I bet a lot of people have different ideas of the “one true actual story” especially among non comic fans.

I'm prone to respecting canon, whether I like or dislike, agree or disagree with it. I mean, without it, there are a million different ways we can each interpret the stories and characters in them, which does not lend itself to cohesion or consistency. Whenever, in my opinion, a character has acted out of character, I try to look deeper into the story and circumstances to see what could have prompted the behavior in question. Often, this leads to fascinating shifts in character and behavior that only serve to make these characters more complex and, yes, contradictory. As human beings, we are all complex and contradictory.

For example, Morrison and Bendis were the first writers to depict Jean forcefully crossing boundaries by telepathically invading the minds of others. In Morrison's case, she did this at a time when the Phoenix Force was manifesting through her with increasing frequency and intensity, and during a high-stress situation in which she not only discovered that Scott and Emma were having a telepathic affair but also questioned Emma's motives for joining the X-Men. Most people overlook the fact that Jean didn't just invade Emma's mind and rehash her traumas to punish her but to test her and find out if she had nefarious ulterior motives.

In Bendis' case, he had placed her in one of the strangest, most precarious, and traumatizing experiences she had and has undergone as a character. At anywhere between the ages of 12 and 15, she was not only made aware that she possessed telepathic abilities, which Xavier had suppressed and of which he erased her memory, but was also forced to absorb future memories and experiences that revealed to her the various trials and tribulations she and her teammates would undergo, including her own deaths. By the time she began using her telepathy unethically, she was in an extremely compromised emotional state and dead set on preventing the tragic events of her future.

As for the Dark Phoenix Saga, as I've grown, matured, and read more, I have become convinced that it is impossible to ignore what the Phoenix's clone of Jean, imbued with a fragment of Jean's essence, endured during that storyline. This was a woman who had not only been fashioned by a cosmic force and imbued with a portion of another woman's essence and psyche - I can't even get into what that would do to a person - but also stalked and psychically violated for a +/- year. These violations included mind-controlling, implanting false memories in, and increasingly sexualizing her. Eventually, she broke free of the abuse and entrapment, only to completely unravel and unintentionally decimate a planet and its inhabitants.

As far as I am concerned, any respectful adaptation would touch upon the themes of abuse and trauma found in the original story. I would love to ask Claremont how he views that aspect of his story in retrospect. The closest he came to connecting abuse and trauma to the emergence of Dark Phoenix is found both in the exchange between Phoenix and Scott on the plane and, later, in Ororo's thoughts.

[Starchilde]

I never saw the m knight movie. But I think your question actually highlights a bigger question: was dark Phoenix a clone, or was she possessed, or was she mentally ill? I’m not actually asking people here. I’d be dying to do a poll to see what people think of as “the” definitive dark Phoenix edition. You have the original idea, the retcon, and everything in between. I bet a lot of people have different ideas of the “one true actual story” especially among non comic fans.

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix is Jean in her core. Making the storyline a thing that happened to an abstract person that was "pretending to be Jean", was so unfair. If the story is not about Jean then what? It's about Charles, Cyclops, the Shi'ar? No, they are just third persons. It's about Jean or it does not hold any value for me. I don't like that the character has to be robbed of years of comics just for a retcon, for me it's fundamental that is recognized as her story and not something truly detached from her. But at the end every writer has its views about the Saga and they constantly change how it's presented when they write Jean.

[Lukmendes]

I never saw the m knight movie. But I think your question actually highlights a bigger question: was dark Phoenix a clone, or was she possessed, or was she mentally ill? I’m not actually asking people here. I’d be dying to do a poll to see what people think of as “the” definitive dark Phoenix edition. You have the original idea, the retcon, and everything in between. I bet a lot of people have different ideas of the “one true actual story” especially among non comic fans.

The clone thing was just a cop-out so Jean didn't kill a planet and I honestly don't see it being as interesting as it being Jean herself who did it.

However, the clone thing is also what made Phoenix into a separate entity, which I think it's cool that it chose Jean, just the part about it replacing Jean is meh.

I think the Dark Phoenix Story has been done at this point (not only by the X-Men movies but also by literally EVERY other genre fantasy/science fiction movie and series ever).

WHAT WE NEED IS THE PHOENIX STORY! Jean flying into space saving the universe. the end.

Reminds me that Ultimate X-Men was implying that with Jean when she left Earth after killing Apocalypse... Then she's back on the very next issue, and the reason she returned was revealed to be one of the Silver Surfers telling her to go home lol.

Oh hell no...

Man this is plot archeology at is finest, picking a throwaway line like that from Lee/Kirby run and using it like 30 years later lol.

Feige and the MCU in general did handle the Infinity War storyline quite beautifully, but yeah, a series, be it animated or live-action, would be optimal.

Yeah movies have their own benefits, I just find them to be not as good as a series or a cartoon.

I think a live-action series could work just as well, but I get your point. I wouldn't mind an animated X-Men series with the animation style and quality of What If...?.

Biggest advantage of a live-action series are the actors themselves, since there's more flexibility on what can be improvised, and that can benefit characters a lot.

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix is Jean in her core. Making the storyline a thing that happened to an abstract person that was "pretending to be Jean", was so unfair. If the story is not about Jean then what? It's about Charles, Cyclops, the Shi'ar? No, they are just third persons. It's about Jean or it does not hold any value for me. I don't like that the character has to be robbed of years of comics just for a retcon, for me it's fundamental that is recognized as her story and not something truly detached from her. But at the end every writer has its views about the Saga and they constantly change how it's presented when they write Jean.

Yeah the whole thing about Phoenix replacing Jean was because Jim Shooter wouldn't allow her to be brought back without something like that being done... Hell, it's even why she was killed at the end of the story, one alternate ending had her powers being removed (Was even drawn and everything), and I hear that another possibility would have Jean staying as a villain.

Oh well, like I said about, Phoenix clone was a pretty meh cop-out...

[WallStreeter]

Now, instead of us being stuck in the past, let us listen to Claremont's pitch to Disney. He has suggested the Phoenix storylines be adapted into a Game of Thrones type series.

Streaming has changed media and the pandemic has sped up that change. It would be wonderful to see Phoenix/Jean get her own streaming series, and go big in the MCU.

Let's think of the future and not get trapped into 35 year old debates.

Mind you this is 41 years past the original comic. A good adaptation would have to take into account the current political environment. We don't need any more stories saying women can't handle power and must die if they get powerful. I will give the crappy Dark Phoenix adaptation from Fox that much credit, Jean was not killed again in the last installment. But it has serious flaws in the writing, and it was poorly cast.

[andreikes]

a lot of hypocrisy

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[Starchilde]

a lot of hypocrisy

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LMAO

10char

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

a lot of hypocrisy

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40 is bad but 60 is A-OK!

smh Jean just doesn't get respect from the X-office as a character

At least Storm is getting some love

[Mercury]

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix is Jean in her core. Making the storyline a thing that happened to an abstract person that was "pretending to be Jean", was so unfair. If the story is not about Jean then what? It's about Charles, Cyclops, the Shi'ar? No, they are just third persons. It's about Jean or it does not hold any value for me. I don't like that the character has to be robbed of years of comics just for a retcon, for me it's fundamental that is recognized as her story and not something truly detached from her. But at the end every writer has its views about the Saga and they constantly change how it's presented when they write Jean.

I totally understand the frustration and refusal to accept the retcon. I felt the same way not long ago. However, two things dawned on me: 1) Despite allusions to the contrary, the retcon is still referenced and considered canon, and 2) The Dark Phoenix Saga is not why I fell in love with Jean Grey as a character. It's also important to note that the two moments in the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas that matter and speak most to who Jean is are attributed to her, even with the retcon intact: Jean risking her life and piloting the shuttle, which resulted in the sacrifice of ten years of her life, during which she remained in stasis, and Jean compelling the Phoenix clone to sacrifice herself via the fragment of her psyche with which it was imbued.

While I have accepted and even see some merit in the retcon, especially as it pertains to adding another layer and dimension to Jean's history, it obviously doesn't remove her completely from the story. She was active during the Dark Phoenix Saga, if only partially, and if it weren't for her, that classic storyline would not exist. Furthermore, Morrison's run underscored what Claremont had established: The Phoenix Force is an innate part of Jean (or vice versa) and that she is more than capable of controlling its more destructive tendencies even when under great stress. In the end, I see the Dark Phoenix Saga as a consequence of abuse and trauma and the first manifestation of the Phoenix Force through Jean. In my headcanon, the Phoenix Force fashioned a clone of Jean, who is its most essential fragment, so that she could heal from the ravaging effects of both the radiation she was exposed to and the Phoenix Force's own manifestation through her.

That being said, everyone is entitled to their own personal headcanon!

[Havok83]

I never saw the m knight movie. But I think your question actually highlights a bigger question: was dark Phoenix a clone, or was she possessed, or was she mentally ill? I’m not actually asking people here. I’d be dying to do a poll to see what people think of as “the” definitive dark Phoenix edition. You have the original idea, the retcon, and everything in between. I bet a lot of people have different ideas of the “one true actual story” especially among non comic fans.

All of the above? The problem that people tend o have when trying to understand Jean/Phoenix is that they look at it with a black/white lens. Its either this or that when its not. She was alot of things and they dont have to be mutually exclusive. She was a clone. We know that bc it wasnt the original body; that was recovering in the Bay.


Was she possessed? I would also say yes. If you go back to the Dark Phoenix Saga, she is almost written as a separate entity that Jean must contain. She even describes it as an it and a seperate being from her which falls in line with later stories where it is a cosmic entity that posesses people

Finally was she mentally ill? Mastermind and Emma certainly drove her to a point where she snapped. I dont believe the DPS would have happened had it not been for their intervention and messing with her head

As far as the retcon goes, its valid but it doesnt negate the original story. If anything it and everything since has shed light on it by providing more context.

[Celestialbodies]

All of the above? The problem that people tend o have when trying to understand Jean/Phoenix is that they look at it with a black/white lens. Its either this or that when its not. She was alot of things and they dont have to be mutually exclusive. She was a clone. We know that bc it wasnt the original body; that was recovering in the Bay.


Was she possessed? I would also say yes. If you go back to the Dark Phoenix Saga, she is almost written as a separate entity that Jean must contain. She even describes it as an it and a seperate being from her which falls in line with later stories where it is a cosmic entity that posesses people

Finally was she mentally ill? Mastermind and Emma certainly drove her to a point where she snapped. I dont believe the DPS would have happened had it not been for their intervention and messing with her head

As far as the retcon goes, its valid but it doesnt negate the original story. If anything it and everything since has shed light on it by providing more context.

I wish the people in charge of her character understood this, but Marvel doesn't seem to even have a clear grasp of what happened with Jean/Phoenix.

I thought this era of resurrection, the pods, might shed a little clarity or even a comparison to what happened with Jean and the Phoenix Force but Hickman all but ignored it completely when in the context of the DPS and the Krakoan era it might have made sense for even one character to bring it up.

[Mercury]

All of the above? The problem that people tend o have when trying to understand Jean/Phoenix is that they look at it with a black/white lens. Its either this or that when its not. She was alot of things and they dont have to be mutually exclusive. She was a clone. We know that bc it wasnt the original body; that was recovering in the Bay.


Was she possessed? I would also say yes. If you go back to the Dark Phoenix Saga, she is almost written as a separate entity that Jean must contain. She even describes it as an it and a seperate being from her which falls in line with later stories where it is a cosmic entity that posesses people

Finally was she mentally ill? Mastermind and Emma certainly drove her to a point where she snapped. I dont believe the DPS would have happened had it not been for their intervention and messing with her head

As far as the retcon goes, its valid but it doesnt negate the original story. If anything it and everything since has shed light on it by providing more context.

Excellent points!

I wish the people in charge of her character understood this, but Marvel doesn't seem to even have a clear grasp of what happened with Jean/Phoenix.

I thought this era of resurrection, the pods, might shed a little clarity or even a comparison to what happened with Jean and the Phoenix Force but Hickman all but ignored it completely when in the context of the DPS and the Krakoan era it might have made sense for even one character to bring it up.

Now that you mention it, this era would have been a perfect time to bring this up.

[Starchilde]

I wish the people in charge of her character understood this, but Marvel doesn't seem to even have a clear grasp of what happened with Jean/Phoenix.

I thought this era of resurrection, the pods, might shed a little clarity or even a comparison to what happened with Jean and the Phoenix Force but Hickman all but ignored it completely when in the context of the DPS and the Krakoan era it might have made sense for even one character to bring it up.

Exactly! the resurrection protocols always seemed very inspired by Jean's deaths/rebirths cycle to me. The resurrected people even come out from an egg, and the memories and consciences are stored thanks to Shi'ar crystals.

Now that you mention it, this era would have been a perfect time to bring this up.

Seconded, it would have been really cool to see a reference or comparison.