Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[jwatson]

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
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Oh my i think the artists pretty much said it all with those "hardons" dark phoenix keep giving itself in those images. very meta. lol

[Saithor]

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
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Must we acknowledge the existence of that book? Between that and Bendis it’s been a rough century to be someone who started the Avengers with Busiek.

Why did he even want the Phoenix anyway?

[Starchilde]

Oh my i think the artists pretty much said it all with those "hardons" dark phoenix keep giving itself in those images. very meta. lol

hahahahahah oh myyy the "hardons"

srsly Avengers #51 is probably the cringiest comic I have ever read, Aaron truly needs someone to stop him

[Starchilde]

Must we acknowledge the existence of that book? Between that and Bendis it’s been a rough century to be someone who started the Avengers with Busiek.

Why did he even want the Phoenix anyway?

probably to do his megaretcon that states that Phoenix has always been a primordial part of the Avengers since the prehistoric times to these days *sighs*

[Saithor]

probably to do his megaretcon that states that Phoenix has always been a primordial part of the Avengers since the prehistoric times to these days *sighs*

No, I get that she’s part of the Prehistoirc Avengeres, my thing is why did he decide he needed the Phoenix for thag? And that she needed to be Thor’s mom?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
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OK. This is Phoenix 5-tier bad. He has outdone himself.

[Spiderfan001]

Thought I should post this here as well

https://twitter.com/WitchOfSteeI/sta...40518883868673

How we feeling about this list of Phoenix killers

[Celestialbodies]

Agreed. If they do adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga, I imagine Feige will go about it the way he did Infinity War, i.e., it will be an arc established across several films.



If they do decide to introduce Phoenix, my hope is that they adapt Morrison’s take on her, which is brilliant because it subverts expectations by showing Jean in total control of the Phoenix Force.



::sigh:: Personally, I think there have been some great shifts in Jean’s depiction within the last 6-12 months, but to each their own.



I think this is still going to happen, though we may not see it until issue #9 or after.



Duggan has handled Jean wonderfully. It’s obvious, to me, at least, that he development is on an upswing. The major changes that we all want to see for her—mainly, a uniform change and dropping the moniker—have already been hinted at by both Duggan, in issue #4 and some tweets, and Larraz, in several tweets.

With how some of you carry on, it seems you might prefer that she just be killed off for another 14 years.

EDIT: I apologize for the snark. The constant complaining can get grating.

Duggan is an exception to the rule, listen you do an incredible job of pulling together a lot of development for Jean that is not shown in the actual books. I think your work is impeccable please don't confuse the idea that some of us are seeking actual development for complaining.

I've lived through those 14 years, I heard the complaints from fans, writers, editors, and creators about why she should have stayed dead during that period, how she didn't have a personality, and to be honest many complaints they had are true. Marvel doesn't utilize Jean anywhere close to her actual potential, she often gets momentary stretches of focus but more often than not she plays incredibly passive roles to the overall narrative. Personally, I don't care about a council seat, or formation of a team when you have characters literally juggling council seats, leading teams, and directly involved in multiple other narratives and engaged in meaningful interactions across books.


So when I speak upon this era I do so from the perspective of what occurred during those 14 years, her return in 2012, and the adult version in 2017. And simply speaking her character has been disjointed, I'm tired of settling for Jean has a few feats or power displays but her character and motivations are lacking. Jean has so much potential but for most of her history it's been just that potential. And we should demand for more growth for our favorite character that's in line with her history instead of the most important arcs in her history being divorced from her and handed to other character without so much as an inflection from Jean. X-men Red wasn't perfect nor was teen Jean imo, but she felt like a character and looking back on this era. All I see are moments no development, heck even her relationship to Cyclops and her children is all incredibly lacking, children aside why do these two people who've consistently been forced apart choose to be together other than its what the narrative state? What is her opinion on having both her children in one place for the first time ever? Where are the moments of interaction between Xavier and Jean especially given what Krakoa is and what Jean attempted in Red have they even spoken indepth since the start of Krakoa? What does it mean for Jean to work alongside Magneto, how has her friendship with Storm changed after GSX, what are her thoughts on Emma who can apparently convince her of anything per Hellions, what about Logan and their complicated relationship aside what do they value about one another, Maddie's return, the PF hosting a competition on Earth? Where are Jean's thoughts?

I personally just wanna hear her voice, opposed to others speaking for her while her own thoughts and feelings aren't worth a panel. Jean Grey is more than a powerset or costume but we've had so little to invest in, that's all we've discussed for nearly 2 years, I want more and I think she deserves more.

Lol there's no mandate that everyone has to be in love with this era's take on Jean. Overall, it's more regressive than anything, even if they have avoided just killing her off.

Overall, I can say I'm not a fan of her use in this era, moreover I don't think anything she's done in this era has inspired other writers to want to use her evident in how menial she's been to most plots she's been used. Her recent use in X-Force isn't even worth a mention because there won't be any long term effect from it. Had she been a confidant and teacher to Quire prior I think it might have been more meaningful. But it came off as using Jean to further Logan, which incidentally a lot of her appearances feel. An effort to support someone else not at all based on the character itself.

I'm particularly hating this era, few moments of glory but no character development. And the worst part is that X-Office purposely ignores Jean's fans. And the icing on the cake is her costume.
At least Jean from Duggan doesn't have a panic attack or forgetfulness of powers in the middle of battle like Hickman's.

I have to agree I want to see development, not team formations, not infrequent power displays, or deconstruction of themes attached to her without anything replaced.

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
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Ugh, perfect visual example of the sheer lack of care at all for all things regarding Jean Grey and her history. The most important tragedy in the characters history has been reduced to a controversial moment for any character from her husband to whatever this is.

[Mercury]

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
Attachment 116547
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It reads like a parody or a bad What If…? alternate shithouse. Must you continue to assault us with this dreck?

Oh my i think the artists pretty much said it all with those "hardons" dark phoenix keep giving itself in those images. very meta. lol

That first image looks like a straight-up cock.

Thought I should post this here as well

https://twitter.com/WitchOfSteeI/sta...40518883868673

How we feeling about this list of Phoenix killers

Wanda, after trying to fight one of the Phoenix Five…



The rest: 😂🤣😂🤣😂

[Starchilde]

Thought I should post this here as well

https://twitter.com/WitchOfSteeI/sta...40518883868673

How we feeling about this list of Phoenix killers

Incorrect list

It lacks Xorn-high-on-Kick pretending to be Magneto-high-on-Kick

[Mercury]

Duggan is an exception to the rule, listen you do an incredible job of pulling together a lot of development for Jean that is not shown in the actual books. I think your work is impeccable please don't confuse the idea that some of us are seeking actual development for complaining.

I am incredibly humbled. Granted, sometimes validating and sharing my love for Jean feels like a strenuous and fruitless effort, even amongst her fans, but I try. Also, you are entitled to voice your opinions, concerns, and desires regarding her and her development—all of which amount to more than just complaining—so, I apologize if I minimized either.

I've lived through those 14 years, I heard the complaints from fans, writers, editors, and creators about why she should have stayed dead during that period, how she didn't have a personality, and to be honest many complaints they had are true.

Frankly, criticisms regarding Jean not “hav[ing] a personality” are suspicious and laughable to me and always a telltale sign of simple favoritism (e.g., “[Insert favorite character] is so much better and more interesting than her”) and/or a deep misunderstanding of what is fundamental to her character. She has always been an outlier in an assembly of outsiders and has tended to internalize her thoughts and feelings rather than make grand, showy displays of them. Granted, she has certainly resorted to the latter, too.

Jean’s history is riddled with loss and trauma, which is why I think she leans towards being humble, understated, and remaining in the background. Honestly, this is another one of the myriad things I love about her: The fact that she has no problem being underestimated and overlooked, despite her status, stature, and reputation as Xavier’s first student, the first female and a founding member of the X-Men, the chosen host of the Phoenix Force, and a powerhouse whom very few can overpower. In the end, still waters run deep.

Incidentally, I was just reminded of this moment in X-Men Unlimited #7:

Marvel doesn't utilize Jean anywhere close to her actual potential, she often gets momentary stretches of focus but more often than not she plays incredibly passive roles to the overall narrative.Personally, I don't care about a council seat, or formation of a team when you have characters literally juggling council seats, leading teams, and directly involved in multiple other narratives and engaged in meaningful interactions across books.

While I agree that, in general, Marvel hasn’t used or explored Jean to her fullest potential—this is actually the case for many characters—in the seven years preceding Hickman’s run, she was central to (All-New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, etc.) and out-and-out led (Jean Grey, X-Men: Red) multiple series. In other words, she was prominently featured in comic books for the majority of the last decade.

Also, she was given a prominent and vital role in King of Black, during which she raided the mind of and led the charge against a god, which entailed her guiding and directing several high-profile heroes. And, while her current status may not matter much to you or others, the fact that she is responsible for founding and co-leading the new X-Men is nonetheless noteworthy.

Moreover, as even you have admitted, in only five issues, Duggan has established her as a strong leader with clear motivations, and has shown no signs of stopping his exploration of her.

So when I speak upon this era I do so from the perspective of what occurred during those 14 years, her return in 2012, and the adult version in 2017. And simply speaking her character has been disjointed

I know we disagree here, but, to me, her character from 2012 to 2018 felt as complex, powerful, and self-assured as ever. Her history, conflicts, and motivations were clear and defined.

I'm tired of settling for Jean has a few feats or power displays but her character and motivations are lacking. Jean has so much potential but for most of her history it's been just that potential.

I vehemently disagree. If this had been the case, I would not have fallen in love with her. And I’m certainly not one of those fans who thinks Jean is interesting only when the Phoenix Force is involved.

And we should demand for more growth for our favorite character that's in line with her history instead of the most important arcs in her history being divorced from her and handed to other character without so much as an inflection from Jean.

The only aspect of her history that seems to have been divorced from her is her bond with the Phoenix Force. And I can’t even say that this is completely true because her time as Phoenix is still spoken of and recognized as canon. Hell, she’s still recognized as having been involved in the Dark Phoenix Saga, which was retconned and “divorced from her.”

X-men Red wasn't perfect nor was teen Jean imo, but she felt like a character and looking back on this era. All I see are moments no development...

I think the same can be said for most of the characters this era, which is one of my biggest criticisms of it. Honestly, who, outside of a handful of characters, has received much development within the last two years? Frankly, Jean has been one of the lucky characters. Some have been truly treated, as they say, “like wallpaper.”

heck even her relationship to Cyclops and her children is all incredibly lacking, children aside why do these two people who've consistently been forced apart choose to be together other than its what the narrative state?

I recently read the time-displacement run, so maybe the fact that it’s fresh in my memory causes me to feel like I know why they are back together. They were provided a unique and revealing vantage point from which to reflect on their lives and relationship. The way I see it, Scott fell out of love with Emma because 1) again, she violated him and Jean, this time as teens, by mind-controlling him and forcing her sexual memories with him into Jean’s mind. He also returned from the dead, which, I assume, changed his perspective.

As for Jean, being resurrected from the dead after spending nearly a decade and a half completely bonded to a cosmic force changed her perspective, too. She also lead a team while Scott was dead, which gave her some time to reflect on both her life and their life together. At this stage in the game—nearly 60 years worth of interactions later—I know what brought them together to begin with and, considering what has transpired within the last two decades, I can see what has brought them together now: They both were time-displaced; they both died, and they both were given a new lease on life.

Would I have handled the development of their relationship differently post-pre-Hickman resurrections? Sure. I would have maintained them both single and focused on their friendship for some time. However, I also can’t deny that the groundwork for their re-coupling was laid out, even if it’s not to the liking of some fans.

Finally, we have yet to see how their relationship will continued to be explored by Duggan. The entire X-franchise is and, for some time, has been in a transitional period that’s been reinforced by mystery and intrigue. This has not been an era strong on plot and arcs.

Continued...

[Mercury]

Continued...

What is her opinion on having both her children in one place for the first time ever? Where are the moments of interaction between Xavier and Jean especially given what Krakoa is and what Jean attempted in Red have they even spoken indepth since the start of Krakoa? What does it mean for Jean to work alongside Magneto, how has her friendship with Storm changed after GSX, what are her thoughts on Emma who can apparently convince her of anything per Hellions, what about Logan and their complicated relationship aside what do they value about one another, Maddie's return, the PF hosting a competition on Earth? Where are Jean's thoughts?

Some of these are valid questions, while others are just musings based on assumptions. For example, it wasn’t implied that Emma “can apparently convince [Jean] of anything” in Hellions. In fact, what was implied by Scott was that Madelyne’s resurrection was kept secret from Jean, which says more about him than it does her. As for Emma, she convinced the Quiet Council, of which Jean is no longer a member.

I personally just wanna hear her voice, opposed to others speaking for her while her own thoughts and feelings aren't worth a panel. Jean Grey is more than a powerset or costume but we've had so little to invest in, that's all we've discussed for nearly 2 years, I want more and I think she deserves more.

While I agree with some of this, Jean has had defining moments during the last two years, most notably her musings on death in X-Force #3, her speech to Xavier and Erik regarding forming the new team in X-Men #16, and her recently revealed Gala speech in X-Men #4, amongst several others. She’s had assertive moments (leaving the QC and leading the charge in X of Swords; confronting Beast), empathic moments (with Scott, Nate, Logan, and Esme), and powerful moments (saving Storm; the Gala psi-link; her work in Planet Size X-Men; overpowering Knull and Nightmare; and most of her work in the new X-Men).

Overall, I can say I'm not a fan of her use in this era

This is fair and understandable.

moreover I don't think anything she's done in this era has inspired other writers to want to use her

Considering that she’s headlining the flagship title, this is factually untrue.

evident in how menial she's been to most plots she's been used. Her recent use in X-Force isn't even worth a mention because there won't be any long term effect from it. Had she been a confidant and teacher to Quire prior I think it might have been more meaningful. But it came off as using Jean to further Logan, which incidentally a lot of her appearances feel. An effort to support someone else not at all based on the character itself.

Some of her appearances in X-Force and Wolverine have been to support Logan and his team and I see nothing wrong with that. Now, yes, I agree that her appearances could have been fleshed out more but, again, many characters have suffered from thin writing this era. I don’t take it so personally.

I have to agree I want to see development, not team formations, not infrequent power displays, or deconstruction of themes attached to her without anything replaced.

And, again, I want to point out that your complaints regarding Jean’s development apply to about 90% of the other characters. Look at Iceman, Gambit, Rogue, Colossus, and Exodus, to name but a few characters. Jean has faired much better than either of them.

Ugh, perfect visual example of the sheer lack of care at all for all things regarding Jean Grey and her history. The most important tragedy in the characters history has been reduced to a controversial moment for any character from her husband to whatever this is.

It’s been four, going on five years since Jean dispelled and rejected the Phoenix Force. While moments like the one from Avengers shared upthread make me shake my head, I don’t perceive them as an affront to Jean. I’m looking forward and at what lies ahead.

In the end—and this isn’t exclusively directed at you, Celestialbodies—I think what I find most tiring and draining about the constant complaining is that it sucks all of the fun and joy out of what should be an entertaining and exciting hobby. Mind you, I have done my fair share of complaining and perceiving the glass half-full. However, I choose not to do that anymore.

Instead, I dedicate my time to celebrating what I love about Jean, sharing both well- and little-known facts about her history, and musing about the potential directions in which she can be taken. I have neither the time nor the energy to dwell on the negative. As a result, I’ve attracted and engaged in conversation some amazing people, including people—writers and artists—that have actually been charged with handling Jean’s current and future development.

This wouldn’t be the case if I spent my time bemoaning how she is currently being handled. That’s not to say that I don’t share my criticisms and preferences with these creatives, but it is to say that I focus on what inspires me about her as a character and my hope for her future evolution, which is infinite in its possibilities and potential. That’s actually a beautiful thing.

[WallStreeter]

Writers like Aaron, Bendis, and Rosenberg hated the idea of females with cosmic powers. Echo is getting her own show and of course the MCU won’t want her as Phoenix. Therefore Aaron is free to do whatever to the Phoenix until the X-office wants it back or until the MCU decides to use Phoenix/Jean.

[WallStreeter]

It reads like a parody or a bad What If…? alternate shithouse. Must you continue to assault us with this dreck?



That first image looks like a straight-up cock.



Wanda, after trying to fight one of the Phoenix Five…



The rest: ����������

Aaron writes a lot of terrible fan fiction. What If’s are usually much
Better.

[Gnostic]

Agreed. If they do adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga, I imagine Feige will go about it the way he did Infinity War, i.e., it will be an arc established across several films.

I doubt it. He would make something like that into a mini-series. As that is exactly what he did with the Darker Than Scarlet storyline, which WandaVision was based on. DTS is literally Dark Phoenix 2.0 but with Wanda, John Bryne even called it the “Dark Scarlet Witch” story.