Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I don't pretend to know what Feige is going to do, but I am pretty non-casual and I have never heard of "Darker Than Scarlet". It's not the same notoriety.

That said, I don't think we get Jean Grey Phoenix in the new movies at all.

But it will be a lovely FU to the comic book side of the Marvel house if she appears.

[Mercury]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from Jean and Deadpool! (From Merry X-Men Holiday Special #1 [2019]):

[Gnostic]

I don't pretend to know what Feige is going to do, but I am pretty non-casual and I have never heard of "Darker Than Scarlet". It's not the same notoriety.

That said, I don't think we get Jean Grey Phoenix in the new movies at all.

But it will be a lovely FU to the comic book side of the Marvel house if she appears.

You really haven’t heard of it? House of M was a sequel to it and made references to the events of the story. It is where Wanda forces herself on Wonder Man and gives him a fellatio against his will. You had to have at least heard of that last part.

Anyway, Feige said that a story like that can only been told on television.

[Starchilde]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from Jean and Deadpool! (From Merry X-Men Holiday Special #1 [2019]):

Merry christmas to all Jean fans! <3

(love that the writer is Jean Grae)

[Mercury]

You really haven’t heard of it? House of M was a sequel to it and made references to the events of the story. It is where Wanda forces herself on Wonder Man and gives him a fellatio against his will. You had to have at least heard of that last part.

Anyway, Feige said that a story like that can only been told on television.

WTF? 😂🤣😂🤣 I started this arc but never finished. I must get to it ASAP.

Merry christmas to all Jean fans! <3

(love that the writer is Jean Grae)

May you and your loved ones have a beautiful one! 🙏🏼❤️🎄

[johnnysv75]

Regarding Jean’s arguably poor development in Hickman’s era - has any character had any true development? I loved House of X (except Jean’s poor showing in the space fight), but after that not much of true consequence has happened. The first big crossover event was the joke that was X of Swords, and the next crossover was a gala.

I think Inferno is very interesting as a concept, but we get so damn much exposition in it since Hickman has forgotten to tell this story the past two years. If he truly had focused on this story and developed this over the course of the past two years, instead of Arakko and X of Swords and terraforming Mars, I think I would have been a true fan of his work. I could almost have forgiven him for the Marvel Girl name and dress. Almost.

[Lukmendes]

Agreed. If they do adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga, I imagine Feige will go about it the way he did Infinity War, i.e., it will be an arc established across several films.

Huh, wonder if it'd be hinting at it like Thanos himself, getting Phoenix involved with other heroes lol.

If they do decide to introduce Phoenix, my hope is that they adapt Morrison’s take on her, which is brilliant because it subverts expectations by showing Jean in total control of the Phoenix Force.

If they go for that, hopefully it's not the "subvert expectactions" way Star Wars' sequel trilogy did it .

In other news, Beau DeMayo (executive producer of X-Men ‘97), who follows me, liked this tweet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jean_RED_...97136658587648

That would be potentially hilarious lol.

I know that I should ignore Jason Aaron but I can't help it, I needed to share with you these panels of Aaron's "dark phoenix" from Avengers #51 lmao it's hilarious at this point
Attachment 116547
Attachment 116548

And y'all tried to say it wasn't the Phoenix speaking .

Thought I should post this here as well

https://twitter.com/WitchOfSteeI/sta...40518883868673

How we feeling about this list of Phoenix killers

Where's Jason Aaron? He should be at the top.

Either way, the most questionable names in this are Thanos, Wanda and Thor.

Thanos, he's strong, but he only ever was in the level of cosmic beings with the Infinity Gauntlet, so unless he got huge buffs, or Phoenix got huge nerfs, I don't see it.

Thor, he got rekt by Phoenix back in AvX, and it's not even far fetched for it to happen, but I hear he's stronger in Cates' run, but I dunno how much stronger.

Wanda, no, while AvX randomly established her power as the Phoenix's opposite, she's still not strong enough to deal with the Phoenix, at best she could stand a chance if she randomly gets the reality warping powers, but generally she doesn't have 'em.

Beyonders, they're above Phoenix, but they're also dead.

I'm also not sure about Molecule Man, I know that once upon a time he was made to be the second strongest being in the universe, but that was short lived, him and Beyonder got nerfed very awkwardly, no idea how strong he is (Beyonders did make him and his counterparts into bombs to destroy an universe, so he doesn't lack raw power, question is if he can use that normally).

Ugh, perfect visual example of the sheer lack of care at all for all things regarding Jean Grey and her history. The most important tragedy in the characters history has been reduced to a controversial moment for any character from her husband to whatever this is.

To be fair, this is Jason Aaron, he's disrespectful to whatever.

Yes, I know it doesn't make it better, just pointing out that Jason Aaron does that with anyone, She-Hulk particularly got fucked.

Regarding Jean’s arguably poor development in Hickman’s era - has any character had any true development? I loved House of X (except Jean’s poor showing in the space fight), but after that not much of true consequence has happened. The first big crossover event was the joke that was X of Swords, and the next crossover was a gala.

I think Inferno is very interesting as a concept, but we get so damn much exposition in it since Hickman has forgotten to tell this story the past two years. If he truly had focused on this story and developed this over the course of the past two years, instead of Arakko and X of Swords and terraforming Mars, I think I would have been a true fan of his work. I could almost have forgiven him for the Marvel Girl name and dress. Almost.

From what I remember, the characters who got most noticeable development under Hickman are Mystique, Apocalypse and Moira, while some others like Magneto, Xavier, Destiny, Nimrod got cool moments at least.

It's not just them, since I haven't read all of Hickman's issues, but yeah, I doubt a lot of characters got stuff.

[Mercury]

Regarding Jean’s arguably poor development in Hickman’s era - has any character had any true development? I loved House of X (except Jean’s poor showing in the space fight), but after that not much of true consequence has happened. The first big crossover event was the joke that was X of Swords, and the next crossover was a gala.

I think Inferno is very interesting as a concept, but we get so damn much exposition in it since Hickman has forgotten to tell this story the past two years. If he truly had focused on this story and developed this over the course of the past two years, instead of Arakko and X of Swords and terraforming Mars, I think I would have been a true fan of his work. I could almost have forgiven him for the Marvel Girl name and dress. Almost.

I agree with this. In the end, Hickman’s greatest achievements were changing mutants’ settings and dynamics, i.e., the status quo—no small feat—building anticipation, and sustaining mystery and intrigue for two plus years. However, the actual following through with and resolution of myriad plot threads, consistent and resonant character development, and an overall defining arc have been sorely missing. Mind you, I do think he’s coming close to completing an actual and genuinely intelligent and complete arc with Inferno, but, as you noted, it would’ve been more effective had it been spread out throughout the books over the course of the last few years.

In either case, Jean is certainly not alone but rather in the majority when it comes to her lack of character development. Still, I listed some of her best moments this era, which are faithful to her history and solid and good enough to be built upon and followed through with in the near future. Worse off are formerly prominent characters that have had absolutely no development and even regressed considerably this era. This is why I am neither as frustrated nor insulted as some fans. I’ve also come to realize that the focus and development characters receive in comic books tend to ebb and flow. This can be both maddening and promising.

In the end, I am happy that, even during a period of regression—the old uniform and moniker—and less prominence, Jean has still been spotlighted as a powerhouse, a leader, and harboring a few secrets and conflicts that can be further fleshed out and explored. Overall, the last decade has been a good one for her and contains various threads and shifts in her history that have only added depth, shades, and textures to her character. I am confident that, in the near future, she will be spotlighted by other respected and high-profile creatives who are fans of her, of which she has more than a few.

In fact, there has already been a notable shift in how she’s being handled with Duggan’s treatment of her.

[Phoenixx9]

Merry Christmas 2021 Jean Grey fans!

[Spiderfan001]

In fact, there has already been a notable shift in how she’s being handled with Duggan’s treatment of her.

Wanted to talk about this, I'm prefer character driven storytelling by a mile as opposed to plot related ones but I've re-read Hickman's X-men twice(3 in total) and loved it more every single time.HOX/POX may be close to 10, Inferno issue 3 alone is at 3 and going to be 4-5 before it ends.His Avengers/FF stuff I've only read once because of length, I do re-read some issue though.Same w/ Secret wars and loved both twice.

I tried re-reading Duggan's X-men and couldn't get past the second issue.It's feels like such a drag.

I have no clue why, even w/ Pepe's art I just can't do it.

You've always been very knowledgeable when it comes to Jean and even comics, do you(or anyone else) have any theories as to why this is?

Oh and Merry Christmas ya'll

[Mercury]

Wanted to talk about this, I'm prefer character driven storytelling by a mile as opposed to plot related ones but I've re-read Hickman's X-men twice(3 in total) and loved it more every single time.HOX/POX may be close to 10, Inferno issue 3 alone is at 3 and going to be 4-5 before it ends.His Avengers/FF stuff I've only read once because of length, I do re-read some issue though.Same w/ Secret wars and loved both twice.

I enjoy Hickman's work, but I would call his X-Men run more plot-driven than anything else. As far as I'm concerned, he has not successfully developed the majority of the characters he was charged with developing and that's disappointing. However, the man knows how to weave a compelling and intriguing story, which greatly mitigates these flaws. Incidentally, I recently reread HoX/PoX and enjoyed it very much. I'm also enjoying Inferno. However, while it contains some excellent standout issues, his X-Men run left me wanting. Though I've tried, I haven't been able to reread it in its entirety.

I tried re-reading Duggan's X-men and couldn't get past the second issue.It's feels like such a drag. I have no clue why, even w/ Pepe's art I just can't do it.

I've reread the first five issues of Duggan's X-Men three times and I have loved each issue every time. So far, overall, I find the series brisk, intriguing, and entertaining. A while back, a member referred to it as "summer blockbuster fare" and I sort of agree with this. Of course, I love how he writes Jean, so I may be biased. He's managed to say so much about her in so little time. But, beyond that, I also love how he writes Everett and Lorna and the team dynamics he has established and continues to establish. Also, his villains and the arcs he's building intrigue me. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he fleshes out the rest of the characters and how everything he has set up so far will play out.

You've always been very knowledgeable when it comes to Jean and even comics, do you(or anyone else) have any theories as to why this is?

If you're asking why it is that you find rereading Duggan's X-Men a drag, I don't know why outside of personal preference. Also, I think it's important to note that Duggan seems to have been charged with writing a series that is high on action and entertainment, partly to separate it from Hickman's recent run on the series, and also to bide time while the three events--Trial of Magneto, Inferno, and X Lives/X Deaths of Wolverine--preceding the next era reach their resolutions. Considering the fact that he can't be as extreme or dramatic in shifting the chess pieces while these events are still in play, I think he's done a marvelous job.

However, now that the Trial of Magneto has finished and revealed its impact on the rest of the mutants (it's considerable) and Inferno is reaching its crescendo and denouement, I think we'll see Duggan begin to incorporate some of those changes into the new series and pivot toward more character-driven plots while also fleshing out some of the threads he's already established. Of course, there is still the X Live/X Deaths of Wolverine event on the horizon, after which I think this series will become even more focused.

Oh and Merry Christmas ya'll

Merry Christmas!

[johnnysv75]

In either case, Jean is certainly not alone but rather in the majority when it comes to her lack of character development. Still, I listed some of her best moments this era, which are faithful to her history and solid and good enough to be built upon and followed through with in the near future. Worse off are formerly prominent characters that have had absolutely no development and even regressed considerably this era. This is why I am neither as frustrated nor insulted as some fans. I’ve also come to realize that the focus and development characters receive in comic books tend to ebb and flow. This can be both maddening and promising.

In the end, I am happy that, even during a period of regression—the old uniform and moniker—and less prominence, Jean has still been spotlighted as a powerhouse, a leader, and harboring a few secrets and conflicts that can be further fleshed out and explored. Overall, the last decade has been a good one for her and contains various threads and shifts in her history that have only added depth, shades, and textures to her character. I am confident that, in the near future, she will be spotlighted by other respected and high-profile creatives who are fans of her, of which she has more than a few.

In fact, there has already been a notable shift in how she’s being handled with Duggan’s treatment of her.

I agree that Jean has had some good moments, but I keep going back to Bendis’s run and X-Men Red. Not only was she a true powerhouse, but I knew what Jean wanted back then. I knew her thoughts and feelings. She had an agency.

But as I said, the lack of characterization is prevalent in the X-books today. I still don’t know what Betsy feels about being Captain Britain. I am not saying I want to see the return of the never ending thought balloons, but I do want to feel close to the characters, like I did when I read Taylor’s X-Men Red. (I miss that team!)

Speaking of thought balloons, Jean at the end of the 90s, early 2000s, had more consistent writing, and was more important to the X-mythos. I do like Emma Frost, but I think it’s a shame that in 2021 (soon 2022), the woman who gets most of the spotlight is someone known for snarky oneliners - that a woman like Jean, who on the surface is more the woman next door, is mostly in the background.

And while I do like Duggan’s Jean, even he seems to forget Jean’s TK. Jean has created powerful TK forcefields in the past at the same time as she has done incredible things with her telepathy, but in X-Men #2 they talked about Jean’s need of a forcefield. Ugh. And the lack of TK is rather ironic when she wears her Marvel Girl dress, dating back to a time when she was mostly known for her TK.

But yes, I love love love X-Men #4. And I do have faith in Duggan.

[WallStreeter]

Frankly, Jean sucks without the Phoenix and without Bendis’s psi vampirism powers. There’s nothing to distinguish her from any other telepath/telekinetic.

And her costume is horrible. She’s going to remain background until Marvel decides to make her Phoenix.

I mean mutants already expanded to Mars, and have a huge presence in other world.

[Mercury]

I agree that Jean has had some good moments, but I keep going back to Bendis’s run and X-Men Red. Not only was she a true powerhouse, but I knew what Jean wanted back then. I knew her thoughts and feelings. She had an agency.

This is understandable. 2012-2018 Jean is very special to me. However, to be optimistic, I want to point out that Duggan did a marvelous job of revealing some of Jean's motivations, including her guilt, fears, and insecurities. And I don't think this was just a one-off for him but a setup to further develop her character next year.

But as I said, the lack of characterization is prevalent in the X-books today. I still don’t know what Betsy feels about being Captain Britain. I am not saying I want to see the return of the never ending thought balloons, but I do want to feel close to the characters, like I did when I read Taylor’s X-Men Red. (I miss that team!)

Agreed. Also, I've actually begun to miss thought balloons and captions. I have this theory that current comic book writing feels so thin precisely because it has been forced to rely solely on dialogue. There's been this shift to make comic books more cinematic and while I think this has been done to great effect with many comic books, it can also detract from the immersive experience and quality of some comic books. I wish there were more of a balance and that captions and thought bubbles were but judiciously so.

Speaking of thought balloons, Jean at the end of the 90s, early 2000s, had more consistent writing, and was more important to the X-mythos. I do like Emma Frost, but I think it’s a shame that in 2021 (soon 2022), the woman who gets most of the spotlight is someone known for snarky oneliners - that a woman like Jean, who on the surface is more the woman next door, is mostly in the background.

To be fair, Jean received the spotlight for six years (2012-2018), and, as I wrote previously, character focus and development ebbs and flows. Every character goes through periods when they're in the spotlight and shoved to the background. The fact that Jean is a permanent member and co-leader of the flagship title bodes well for her future.

And while I do like Duggan’s Jean, even he seems to forget Jean’s TK. Jean has created powerful TK forcefields in the past at the same time as she has done incredible things with her telepathy, but in X-Men #2 they talked about Jean’s need of a forcefield. Ugh. And the lack of TK is rather ironic when she wears her Marvel Girl dress, dating back to a time when she was mostly known for her TK.

Duggan has written some amazing telekinetic feats for Jean. In X-Men #1, she shielded the entire team from Sunfire's unrestrained blast, though the art didn't focus on it. She has a cute feat in #2, but I also think Duggan wanted to showcase Lorna's magnetic field, which is fair. In issue #3, she shields herself and the nihility sphere from and at one point telekinetically holds back the entire Evolutionary Guard. Duggan has also written Jean cutting off Deadpool's blood flow and hurling a skyscraper-sized, multiple-ton space station out of Mars' atmosphere, effectively achieving escape velocity from Mars, which clocks at 11,200+ mph. In fact, Duggan has been the writer to highlight Jean's telekinesis the most in this era. However, Percy also wrote her atomizing a group of telefloronics, which was another great feat.

But yes, I love love love X-Men #4. And I do have faith in Duggan.

Agreed!

[Mercury]

Frankly, Jean sucks without the Phoenix and without Bendis’s psi vampirism powers. There’s nothing to distinguish her from any other telepath/telekinetic.

And her costume is horrible. She’s going to remain background until Marvel decides to make her Phoenix.

I mean mutants already expanded to Mars, and have a huge presence in other world.

The fact that you feel this way is both surprising and disappointing. Now I question whether you're even a true Jean Grey fan or just a fan of the Phoenix Force. Also, Jean is Marvel's first telekinetic and telepathic/telekinetic character, which certainly distinguishes her. Not to mention, she's Xavier's first student, a founding member, and the first female member of the X-Men. Ain't no one taking those titles away from her, toots.

What I love most about her powers is how little it would take for her to end someone. She doesn't have to expend much effort or go through gyrations or over-dramatic displays of power to kill someone. Not that they would readily resort to showing her do this, but she can just stop a heart, collapse one or both lungs, cut the blood flow to someone's heart or brain, or simply atomize someone and they're done. She can also shut someone's mind down and kill them, as she's done before. And she doesn't need the Phoenix Force to do any of this. If she were to truly cut loose and go for the fatal blow, there are very few beings that could stand a chance against her.

It's of no consequence to me or her if other telepathic/telekinetic characters can do this. The fact of the matter is, she was and always will be the first.