Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Peanutsinspace]

How characters use their telepathic/telekinetic powers really varies ok the writer, but plain Jean has powers so many other people have it just makes her not worth much as a character. Look at how they have handled her. It hadn’t been that great compared to what some other characters have been doing. We will likely need to see Phoenix/Jean in the MCU before the comics decide to really care about Jean.

Jean is more than just her powers and focusing solely on what she is or was rather than who she is speaks to a lack of understanding of the character. What sets her apart from some of the other dual psionics is her passion. Jean has an overwhelming joy for life and a respect for it that very few others have. She's seen the good and the bad and she embraces both but she isn't tainted by any of it. She feels things in huge ways, she has big thoughts and bigger dreams and she sees setbacks a momentary hurdles, she doesn't give up. What she can't finesse she smashes to make a way toward her desires. She sees the good in people and she's willing to forgive those that have wronged her, hell, she'd die for some of them. She cares more about other people than her own life, sometimes to a fault but that's who she is. She loves her friends and would do anything for them, even if it's going to hurt her in the end. She's temperamental, aggressive, haughty at times and has a self-deprecating sense of humor and all of these things are what makes Jean who she is.

Thank god that she's more than just her powers because she'd be a really boring character to read about. Thank god she's more than just the Phoenix because writers don't know what the hell to do with her when she goes cosmic and one amazing story shouldn't be all that defines her for the rest of her existence on the printed page. Writers come and go and every single character has had a writer not get them, it's not just Jean.

I like Jean not because of whatever costume she's wearing or not because she's a cosmic flame goddess or even because she can stop a plane mid-flight. I like Jean because she gives her all every single time and every single time she's thinking about keeping her friends and loved ones safe, making sure the world is safe and feeling every single thing so damn deeply it would drive a normal person insane and she gets up every day to do it all over again and barely bats an eye. She's strong and it's not her powers that make her that way.

I feel bad for you if you can't see or understand that she's more than her abilities and power/feats isn't, nor has ever been what defines Jean Grey.

[OmegaStorm87]

I highly doubt Disney will touch The Phoenix. Fox have posioned that well.

And let's be honest, the vast majority of fans probably feel the same.

[Mercury]

Teen Jean was given a psyche absorption pose that stood in for the Phoenix. It was unique and it was why it worked.

Current Jean doesn’t do psyche absorption and she is still a background character. Jeen was a starring character, one who was popular enough for them to bring back adult Jean and then do nothing with her.

Teenage Jean used her psychic absorption abilities, which adult Jean is still capable of, per Jordan D. White, infrequently and sporadically, albeit impressively and effectively. It was hardly what made teenage Jean popular. No, being Jean Grey is what made her popular.

[Gnostic]

I highly doubt Disney will touch The Phoenix. Fox have posioned that well.

And let's be honest, the vast majority of fans probably feel the same.

The Phoenix only showed up in Dark Phoenix at the very end for less than 10 seconds. lol

[Mercury]

I highly doubt Disney will touch The Phoenix. Fox have posioned that well.

And let's be honest, the vast majority of fans probably feel the same.

I wouldn’t bet anything on Marvel Studios not touching on the Dark Phoenix Saga at some point. Now, how they choose to do this is up for debate.

[Mercury]

Jean is more than just her powers and focusing solely on what she is or was rather than who she is speaks to a lack of understanding of the character. What sets her apart from some of the other dual psionics is her passion. Jean has an overwhelming joy for life and a respect for it that very few others have. She's seen the good and the bad and she embraces both but she isn't tainted by any of it. She feels things in huge ways, she has big thoughts and bigger dreams and she sees setbacks a momentary hurdles, she doesn't give up. What she can't finesse she smashes to make a way toward her desires. She sees the good in people and she's willing to forgive those that have wronged her, hell, she'd die for some of them. She cares more about other people than her own life, sometimes to a fault but that's who she is. She loves her friends and would do anything for them, even if it's going to hurt her in the end. She's temperamental, aggressive, haughty at times and has a self-deprecating sense of humor and all of these things are what makes Jean who she is.

Thank god that she's more than just her powers because she'd be a really boring character to read about. Thank god she's more than just the Phoenix because writers don't know what the hell to do with her when she goes cosmic and one amazing story shouldn't be all that defines her for the rest of her existence on the printed page. Writers come and go and every single character has had a writer not get them, it's not just Jean.

I like Jean not because of whatever costume she's wearing or not because she's a cosmic flame goddess or even because she can stop a plane mid-flight. I like Jean because she gives her all every single time and every single time she's thinking about keeping her friends and loved ones safe, making sure the world is safe and feeling every single thing so damn deeply it would drive a normal person insane and she gets up every day to do it all over again and barely bats an eye. She's strong and it's not her powers that make her that way.

I feel bad for you if you can't see or understand that she's more than her abilities and power/feats isn't, nor has ever been what defines Jean Grey.

Preach! Your post moved me. It’s refreshing to read what another fan loves about Jean. It also mitigates the effects of some of the bullshit we’re forced to read in her own appreciation thread.

Seriously, thank you for sharing! 🙏🏼

[Spiderfan001]

While being the first is nice, characters have to do stuff to stand out if competition with the same power set comes around, otherwise they may look redundant.

Then again, Jean is very popular, and just being more popular than the competition alone can be good enough, despite the ridiculously high amount of Spider-People in 616, and how some have the same powers as Peter and some others on top of 'em, there's no real worry he'll look redundant, Jean feels like a similar case .

At best, I can see O5 being the first X-Men, but even starting the show with them being the only members of the team sounds far fetched, even if we assume Marvel would allow it lol.

This, Peter and Jean's power sets will always be iconic to them.No matter how many people get them in the future.
Specially Pete's Spider-sense which is one of the most visually interesting powers put on panel and Jean pink aura which works well on panel as well.

Also O5 are all white, so there's def. going to be more X-men IMO

Teenage Jean used her psychic absorption abilities, which adult Jean is still capable of, per Jordan D. White, infrequently and sporadically, albeit impressively and effectively. It was hardly what made teenage Jean popular. No, being Jean Grey is what made her popular.

Tbf a lot of people did rightfully point out that Jean was being pushed in all the stories in that era.She was the main character, not to say Jean being Jean wasn't a factor but I don' think it was the only one.

[Mercury]

Tbf a lot of people did rightfully point out that Jean was being pushed in all the stories in that era.She was the main character, not to say Jean being Jean wasn't a factor but I don' think it was the only one.

She was being pushed because she was in high-demand. As Bendis noted:

Just Jean Grey alone inspires so many story ideas and so many emotions, and means so much to so many people. That's the thing X-Men fans always say they want. You go anywhere — "Bring back Jean Grey!" But they don't want a reincarnated Jean Grey, and they don't want a dug-up Jean Grey. They want Jean.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/comic...4479#gs.ke5ajl

[Mercury]

More from Bendis:

I think she’s the quintessential X-Man. I think that’s why everyone gravitates to her so much. Her powers are unique; her powers are something she has to work on, something she has to control. Every time her powers build, it sets a new set of problems for her, and at the same time, a new set of goals and challenges that make her a better hero, And we know, as fans, that she has met with tragedy a couple of times, because of the rocky road of the mutants and the X-Men.

She is the one that everyone wants back the most, and what’s great about this situation. She is the most interesting of the group. They’re all interesting, but because she will have the knowledge. Even if she tells them, “here’s what happens to us,” they’re not going to feel it like she feels it. She is just so interesting to write, Most of us that have read a Jean Grey story know that her dark side is a real thing, and seeing her pushed to limits like this will be interesting for people to see. Will she hold it together? Does she want to hold it together?”

https://comicsblend.com/jean-grey-is...new-x-men/amp/

[Starchilde]

At the risk of stepping into the landmine that is the Phoenix Force and re-writes, isn't it impossible to kill the PF without killing existence in the process? Like yeah, you can kill the host body but the actual Force, no.

I think (100%) that is impossible to kill the Phoenix Force, if its "killed" (more like destroyed/dispersed) its immediately "reborn", reagruped. At least that's what I understood with the concept of the Phoenix Egg in Morrison's (and guess who came out from that Phoenix Egg, heh).

Edit: Remembering this made me cringe even more at everything Aaron has written on Phoenix lore, I hope next writers pretend that it never happened, lol.

[Lukmendes]

How characters use their telepathic/telekinetic powers really varies ok the writer, but plain Jean has powers so many other people have it just makes her not worth much as a character. Look at how they have handled her. It hadn’t been that great compared to what some other characters have been doing.

I mean, the problems you're mentioning are less about Jean having redundant powers and more about Marvel not really caring about using her character, giving her more powers wouldn't solve this.

Let's put this in a simple way, if Emma didn't have the diamond form, she'd still be one of the most popular X-Men, it's her design and personality that makes her stand out, because while powers are definitely important, a cool personality has to be there too.

We will likely need to see Phoenix/Jean in the MCU before the comics decide to really care about Jean.

MCU can be a good initial boost, but hardly means it'll stay having a nice boost, look how hard Marvel tried to push Avengers in the comics, it didn't work, now they're being Aaron'd

I’m pretty sure the Krakoa era is to provide the building blocks for MCU mutants, or otherwise Marvel would not have invested so much money in reshaping the world the X-Men live in.

Disney/Marvel is pretty predictable once you look past what you want to see.

Perhaps, but it just seems Marvel likes to use Hickman as the guy to shake the status quo, they let him do all that shit in 2015's Secret Wars to set up ANAD, (Which if anything was more about trying to line up some stuff with MCU), the Krakoa stuff he introduced could be a similar idea to fix the X-Men, but, maybe you're right, we'll see.

Oh, they've already done and gone beyond that, lol.

Hopefully lol.

Exactly. Very few characters have undergone substantial development during this era.

Yeah I'm not exactly surprised, Hickman prefers concepts over characterization, he can write good characters, Mystique and Destiny are my favorites of the bunch he wrote (Though at times the plot becomes really stupid for Mystique to get what she wants), but few get that kind of treatment.

I can totally see a film or first season of a series, if done faithfully and well, centered on the original five. In fact, this is what I'm hoping Marvel does to establish the foundation of the X-Men. The original five have interesting enough origins and powers to make it really work. The plot for the first season or film could center on the O5's origins, flashback to their battles with other villains, and could see them to travel to an island manifesting strange phenomena. Once on the island, they fight for their lives against the island itself: Krakoa! It would end on a cliffhanger, with Cyclops being the only one to escape the island. The second film or season would center on the recruitment of the second genesis of the X-Men, including Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Sunfire, Banshee, and Thunderbird, including their origins and efforts to band together to save the O5 that remained on Krakoa.

The thing is that, while it can work, I just don't see it happening.

Even if we pretend we live in a world where Marvel doesn't try to milk Wolverine, O5 era just isn't something a lot of fans care about (Or even know about outside of comics), a lot of the iconic characters debutted later, and missing out on characters being around early can feel like a big waste.

As much as adaptations can pick stuff from specific eras, they'll still use stuff from others, Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon for example, is the closest thing to an adaptation of Ditko's run, yet, it uses major plot points and characters that weren't in Ditko's run, much less when he was in high school, most noticeably Venom.

So yeah, do I think it could work? Possibly, ultimately even a bad idea can work well if it has good execution (Not saying something using the O5 is a bad idea lol), I just doubt Marvel would allow it, and I also doubt someone would pitch a tv show/cartoon where the first season only really focuses on O5.

Even then, Wanda was checking him out and touching him lovingly while speaking rapey dialogue. Talking about how handsome he is, that he should want it and appreciate it, wiping her lips after she is done.

Okay, I decided to check it out to see what happened there, and even if there was a lousy attempt at censoring, it's quite clear she raped Wonder Man, 'cause even if her head was edited in the last panel so they can say she didn't give him a blowjob, it doesn't matter, she raped him all the same, and he's clearly feeling horrible afterwards.

Not posting scans for once, 'cause it may make Wanda take over this thread, and there's enough negativity here as is, but it happens in West Coast Avengers#56 for anyone who wants to know.

I notice something similar with X-Men: The Last Stand. That movie got hate for years, so I found it baffling that there wasn’t much controversy over its inaccurate/problemtic/stereotypical depiction of dissociative identity disorder (aka multiple personality disorder) like with Me, Myself, & Irene and Split/Glass.

Yeah it's weird, I think part of the reason is that it's an old movie so it doesn't get as much attention, but a bigger reason is possibly that, while there's a bigger focus in mental health and "proper" representation overall, split personality just isn't something people focus on.

And yeah, it's arbitrary, but, people bitching about stuff is hella arbitrary, I guess this is just one example of many examples lol.

This, Peter and Jean's power sets will always be iconic to them.No matter how many people get them in the future.
Specially Pete's Spider-sense which is one of the most visually interesting powers put on panel and Jean pink aura which works well on panel as well.

W̶h̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶e̶d̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶"̶l̶o̶l̶"̶?̶

That makes me wonder, was Jean's pink aura adapted outside the comics? I think 90's cartoon represented her telekinesis as blue, and both X-Men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-Men had it looking transparent, X-Men Evolution had her using telepathy to fight Horseman Xavier, but I think it was dark blue there?

Also O5 are all white, so there's def. going to be more X-men IMO

There's also that, and if O5 were foccused for too long, at least one of them would be race changed.

At the risk of stepping into the landmine that is the Phoenix Force and re-writes, isn't it impossible to kill the PF without killing existence in the process? Like yeah, you can kill the host body but the actual Force, no.

I think (100%) that is impossible to kill the Phoenix Force, if its "killed" (more like destroyed/dispersed) its immediately "reborn", reagruped. At least that's what I understood with the concept of the Phoenix Egg in Morrison's (and guess who came out from that Phoenix Egg, heh).

Y'all, don't talk like you're challenging Jason Aaron.

Edit: Remembering this made me cringe even more at everything Aaron has written on Phoenix lore, I hope next writers pretend that it never happened, lol.

That would be a lot of bullshit to ignore, and Jason Aaron is considered a good writer for some reason, so I find that unlikely, but, if it happens, maybe we'll be told that everything surrounding Odin banging Phoenix and other Aaron stuff was a weird, year-long dream Odin had while he was in Odinsleep .

[Spiderfan001]

She was being pushed because she was in high-demand. As Bendis noted:



https://www.comicbookmovie.com/comic...4479#gs.ke5ajl

More from Bendis:



https://comicsblend.com/jean-grey-is...new-x-men/amp/

That's just Bendis loving Jean lol.Same way he shoved Kitty Pryde into everything he wrote including making an self-insert OC just to get him to date Kitty in 1610.He plays favs a lot whether it's Jean, Luke, Kitty or his creations Miles or Kong(his self-insert).

You can see if you read issues online people wanting the focus to be on others a lot, even as a Jean fan I can say the others got sidelined HARD.Not even talking about the solo she got on top of the focus on team issues(not complaining though).

I literally cannot stop writing her.

-Bendis

This isn't him being extra, he finds Teen Jean "the most interesting" in his own words.I love the concept of Teen Jean and the focus is welcome w/ what Bendis did w/ her but I also acknowledge she was the main focus by Bendis's own design.She had multiple of her own arcs while also being set as the anchor for everyone else which was by Bendis's own design.

Not to mention so many of the arcs others characters had heavily involved or even revolved around Jean.

[Mercury]

That's just Bendis loving Jean lol.Same way he shoved Kitty Pryde into everything he wrote including making an self-insert OC just to get him to date Kitty in 1610.He plays favs a lot whether it's Jean, Luke, Kitty or his creations Miles or Kong(his self-insert).

You can see if you read issues online people wanting the focus to be on others a lot, even as a Jean fan I can say the others got sidelined HARD.Not even talking about the solo she got on top of the focus on team issues(not complaining though).

That’s not “just Bendis loving Jean.” He shared what the top request from fans was, which was for Jean to come back. He did share his love for Jean, though, and it was evident in how he wrote her.

As for other characters being sidelined, Jean has been sidelined too. At that point in her history, having been dead and absent from comics for close to a decade, she earned that spotlight. And it was glorious.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Teen Jean was given a psyche absorption pose that stood in for the Phoenix. It was unique and it was why it worked.

Current Jean doesn’t do psyche absorption and she is still a background character. Jeen was a starring character, one who was popular enough for them to bring back adult Jean and then do nothing with her.

That's because Teen Jean was an actual character. Adult Jean is back to the role that patriarchists think should be her only claim to fame (well, besides fighting evil ex-wives/girlfriends to keep that claim to fame, of course). Flashy and unique powers, mythology, independent aims and goals, etc, are not necessary for the main character's love interest. We don't see Mary Jane running around evolving into psychic energy forms and culturally misappropriating Native American firebird spirits, right?

I think Phoenix Resurrection was a waste. They should have waited till Krakoa, and then bring Jean back using the 5. It would have made more sense why she wasn’t Phoenix!

I don't think Marvel had heard the ideas in Hickman's head at the time of Phoenix Resurrection. Entirely different EIC at the time.

[Spiderfan001]

That’s not “just Bendis loving Jean.” He shared what the top request from fans was, which was for Jean to come back. He did share his love for Jean, though, and it was evident in how he wrote her.

As for other characters being sidelined, Jean has been sidelined too. At that point in her history, having been dead and absent from comics for close to a decade, she earned that spotlight. And it was glorious.

Yeah, because she was dead for so long.Other characters were all still alive and had stories for a long time when she didn't.But the way O5 were written you can't tell me it wasn't written w/ Jean as the main character in mind.

Again as I said it was welcome, I liked that she was the focus again.But the other members of time travelled O5 were nowhere near her in popularity because they got a fraction of the stories that she did and so many of them has Jean playing a pivotal role or just revolving around her.

You said Teen Jean was popular because she was jean, I'm saying another factor we can't ignore is the massive push she got in her Teen Jean era.Never said it was a bad thing, it was her turn.