Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

Yeah, how do you expect Hickman to steer the entire franchise btw.By writing all hundreds of mutants as prominent figures?

Claremont did it--iconically, successfully, and with ease--for nearly two decades.

I didn't find them as interesting because they weren't given nearly as much time/focus.Period.

That's your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. However, to counter your argument with actual facts, I'm going to skim through Bendis' run and see just how much more time and focus were dedicated to Jean because, frankly, you are overblowing just how much of either Bendis committed to her.

Again you don't have to justify why he gave her focus, I know and agree w/ why he did it.Doesn't change the fact that he he did.

I should say the same to you: You don't have to justify why Hickman failed to focus on other characters outside of a select few or, more importantly, why he was unwilling or incapable of either reigning in his writing team or adapting to their changes and preferences in order to tell a more fluid and cohesive story that didn't require nearly two years of waiting for a four-issue miniseries.

How else would he do it.I hope you realize he can't use all mutants, he focused on the ones that made the story.

There are myriad ways he could've told his story and more effectively. A story, mind you, he seems to have had neither the control nor wherewithal to bring to a conclusion until now. Everything he's doing in Inferno who could have spread out through X-Men and/or other books for the two years he was "Head of X."

Yeah, ofc you don't.Because the other writers you were in charge of those characters missed the mark.I hate what they have done to Betsy and Rogue but that isn't on Hickman, same way I love Kwannon and that has nothing to do w/ him either.

Again you're angry because he didn't use Jean and instead used other characters and Jean was handled by others.That's not on him.

I can tell two things right now: 1) We are debating different things and 2) it bothers you when someone criticizes Hickman. You're focused on specific characters, blaming writers to defend him, and totally disregarding my opinion and superimposing your own over mine despite the fact that I've been transparent with how I feel. I've already made it clear--repeatedly--that my criticisms of Hickman's writing are not centered on how he handled Jean but, rather, how he handled the entire franchise, so I'm not sure if you're dense or purposefully attacking the straw man. As for being angry, what's starting to piss me off is you telling me how it is that I feel and what my criticisms are based on. Please, don't be so presumptuous.

Yeah because he was setting up stuff which he won't get to see through because the the writers realized the reason X-books are doing so good is because of Hickman's status quo and they won't last w/out him...

Oh, please. Big deal. He Eternal-ized mutants, threw in a dash of House of Cards, and plopped them on an island. Groundbreaking. Actually, to contradict my sarcastic irreverence, it was and is sort of groundbreaking and certainly injected much-need life and novelty into the franchise. However, blaming all of the writers and predicting that they will fail without Hickman just to defend him is not a good look and screams of fanaticism over one writer. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with being a big fan of a writer, but let's call a spade a spade.

That being said, let's make something else clear: The X-Men were around and highly successful before any of the current writers, including Hickman, had careers. Moreover, the X-Men will be around long after these writers have moved on and been forgotten.

And Duggan's X-men is also the same in circling the drain, except none of the world building and is replaced by (cheap)fan-service...

Duggan isn't responsible for the entire X-franchise. Furthermore, he was charged with writing and introducing the new team while sandwiched in between multiple major events. Even still, he has made Jean, Synch, Polaris, and Sunfire shine while introducing a handful of fascinating plot threads and adversaries, and he's only on issue #5. We'll all be able to better assess how well he's done by issue #12.

Jean being an Omega TP now means far more than before.Period. Being an omega means a hundred times more now than before the stripping.If everyone's an omega, no one is.

Jean was one of the first three mutants to be classified as an Omega Level mutant and was referred to as such many more times than whomever your "everyone" refers to. Check it.

Neither does that fact that people being mad at jean's and others handling isn't on Hickman but the writers that are actually writing them yet here we are...

Yes, here we are, in a debate in which you insist on using straw man tactics to undermine my criticisms. Please do continue minimizing my opinion and criticisms by accusing me of just being "angry about Jean," lol. Jesus. Just so you know, in case you weren't aware, I've actually debated fans on this thread and defended the moments Hickman has given Jean.

Clearly not, when writers themselves said they picked the teams and Hickman gave them all the space they needed and we saw that writers will to stay on Krakoa overruled Hickman's it isn't much of a speculation.

He "gave them all the space they needed" and still went almost nowhere with X-Men, which, again, many fans have noted.

No, I think blaming him for a character he didn't write is dumb.And again he picked multiple people and all of them got attention in spades, you're frustrated that he didn't pick the character you love to do it(so am I).Which again was never his job, he got the X-franchise on it's feet and he didn't use Jean for it.Hence she was used by other writers and her treatment is on them.

I'm going to need you to quote where I "blam[ed] him for a character he didn't write" because you keep relying on the same straw man argument to discredit my opinion. To be clear, I feel Jean was one of the luckier characters during Hickman's run. She had stellar moments under Hickman, Percy, and Duggan, who is writing her beautifully again as we speak. I am not bothered by her treatment over the last couple of years because, prior to this era, she had an amazing six-year run and, during this era, she has was singled out by Hickman to be the first to go against the Krakoan government and found the new X-Men.

How can you say he can't handle multiple people when his entire storytelling format is based on focusing on multiple groups?Same thing in his Avenger/FF run.He always focuses on multiple people, he's plot forward in that characters bend to his plot.

Because he can't handle a large cast of characters, that's why. As you yourself noted, he's a concept, world-building writer. His scope is limited. For example, Claremont could do both and with more heart.

[Mercury]

Marvel does listen to its fans. While Jean has a way to go, it’s certainly a lot better than the first of Hickman’s run. So on the one hand while people should acknowledge any progress, anything fans really don’t like I feel people should speak out or how else will will they know what the masses thing. It looks like she’s going to graduate from that dress. Make her Phoenix again and retcon most of Aaron’s crap away.

Nice to see you back, Mercury!

Thank you, love!

Regarding Hickman: The story told in House of X was intriguing, as well as the story told in Inferno. He seems to have forgotten about that story between those arcs. Only his own X-book has felt important, and even that book has forgotten several of the stories he started in House of X. And as Head of X, I thought his job was to make sure most of the X-book felt like they were a part of a bigger whole. To me, most of the other X-books haven’t really felt important - even though I have enjoyed some of them.

A lot of his storytelling is having his characters re-cap previous events that we haven’t even seen. So damn much exposition.

Sorry. I love a lot of his ideas, he is just not my favorite writer.

Exactly, he failed as the "Head of X." He wasn't charged with just writing one book, he was charged with steering the ship and he failed at doing so.

Back to Jean! I love the costume in the preview pages! I hope this means that Jean wore the Marvel Girl costume in the ads for Destiny of X since they didn’t want to reveal the costume change too soon. (Fingers crossed!)

Maybe! At this point, I'm not even sure if the Hellfire Gala outfit will be a permanent change. I'm still betting on her getting a new costume after that, based on Pepe's Tweet likes.

Just checked out some favorite Jean moments on Marvel Unlimited...

And a while later Kelly and Seagle took over. As much as I love the Phoenix image in X-Men #70, I always get goosebumps when I read this panel in Uncanny X-Men #353.

I recently wrote about Seagle's plan to return to the Phoenix to Jean here: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...36099063111680 His sounded like would've been an amazing story.

Hi Mercury, I hope you're feeling better! all of us has those moments of stress and I hope you can make it through the best possible way, take a rest and your time to focus. My best wishes on your academic progress and congrats for the achievements!!

Thank you for the well-wishes and congrats, love! I do feel much better!

Lololol at your play on words. And yes we have had our adversarial moments but behind these accounts are real people and despite our differences i would never wish anyone harm or ill-will. Thank you for mentioning the feat and congrats to Jean fans for finally getting her out of the marvel girl outfit.

I knew you'd catch it, lol. And, yes, it's important to remember that we are all real people with real feelings, problems, and vulnerabilities. Congratulations on Ororo getting X-Men: Red. If it had to go to anyone else, I'm glad it was her! As for the Marvel Girl dress, we'll see what's up. I'm hoping for an entirely new costume. ::fingers crossed::

And yea thats not cool to do that in her appreciation thread. Appreciate Jean if you disagree there are other places where those thoughts can be discussed. Again I hope you feel better boo and keep repping your fave!

Yeah, the criticisms and negativity can be a bit much. Again, thank you for the well-wishes! My next goal is to get you to like Jean... :>

[Harpsikord]

Claremont did it--iconically, successfully, and with ease--for nearly two decades.

Not on his own he didn't and he's the first person to admit it. That's not a one-person job. Claremont had Weezie and Ann Nocenti and all of his other collaborators that did just as much work or more work than he did with regards of keeping the ship moving. There was a point that Louise was even doing more writing than Chris was.

The success of the X-Men during the 80s is always credited solely to Claremont because he wrote Uncanny X-Men for as long as he did but there were so many other hands in that pot.

[BobbysWorld]

I really REALLY hate how little credit Ann Nocenti gets for her contributions to the X-franchise.

[Mercury]

Not on his own he didn't and he's the first person to admit it. That's not a one-person job. Claremont had Weezie and Ann Nocenti and all of his other collaborators that did just as much work or more work than he did with regards of keeping the ship moving. There was a point that Louise was even doing more writing than Chris was.

The success of the X-Men during the 80s is always credited solely to Claremont because he wrote Uncanny X-Men for as long as he did but there were so many other hands in that pot.

This is true and fair, but, at the very least, it can be said that Claremont was able to successfully steer and keep that "ship moving." One thing I loved about the Claremont documentary is how much credit Louise and Ann received. In fact, all three of them are interviewed for the majority of the doc.

[BobbysWorld]

This is true and fair, but, at the very least, it can be said that Claremont was able to successfully steer and keep that "ship moving."

But I do think it has to be pointed out that a lot of that had to do with how much oversight power he was given.....like others have said, a lot of other people contributed to the creative developments of the 80s but Claremont DID have significant veto and overriding power......and personally, I think the umm, lesser quality of his works ever since he RETURNED to the franchise in the 2000s speaks to the fact that Claremont's big flaw is he's never really learned to play well with others when he doesn't get to be the one in charge. He has a tendency to treat the X-characters like they're his toys and his alone every time he gets his hands on his favorites, and just outright ignores or invalidates anything done to them that he doesn't like, even when the reality is all of that is likely to be overturned and reset back to what it was before him, because he doesn't GET to do that anymore and he just does not acknowledge that.

I'm actually not the hugest Hickman fan because although I like the cerebral nature of a lot of his plots and overarching elements, his character work tends to be pretty cut and paste. He's **** at acknowledging when characters have relationships that SHOULD be affected by what he's doing with those characters if he considers those relationships and the characters they connect with irrelevant to his larger plot. He doesn't really ever take time for just quiet emotional beats because his version of pacing prioritizes using those quiet, slower moments in a plot framework for big 'this changes everything' reveals instead of 'this is how these two characters are impacted by everything that's changed' reveals.

But that said, he's at least more aware of being one part of a larger whole, even when in charge, than Claremont ever has been in my estimation.

[Starchilde]

I really REALLY hate how little credit Ann Nocenti gets for her contributions to the X-franchise.

YES.

10char

[Spiderfan001]

Claremont did it--iconically, successfully, and with ease--for nearly two decades.

He made those characters... you're comparing someone w/ a blank slate to someone who has half a century of sh*t to figure out.
Also Hickman had to fit his story in 12 issues in a way it made sense and revitalized the X franchise at the same time.

That's your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. However, to counter your argument with actual facts, I'm going to skim through Bendis' run and see just how much more time and focus were dedicated to Jean because, frankly, you are overblowing just how much of either Bendis committed to her.

Go for it, let me know after your re-read.Ofc it would still be your opinion which you are entitled to.

I should say the same to you: You don't have to justify why Hickman failed to focus on other characters outside of a select few or, more importantly, why he was unwilling or incapable of either reigning in his writing team or adapting to their changes and preferences in order to tell a more fluid and cohesive story that didn't require nearly two years of waiting for a four-issue miniseries.

He didn't fail to do something if that was never his goal/responsibility... I'm starting to understand why you get "b*tchy" when people say Jean is nothing w/out phoenix, etc. because this argument is so similar to it
It's not his writing team, he's not the editor.
I agree on the latter, but you did read all the interviews where he said he wanted to move on but everyone else told him to not and it got to the point where he left the entire project.Mercury what are you on rn

There are myriad ways he could've told his story and more effectively. A story, mind you, he seems to have had neither the control nor wherewithal to bring to a conclusion until now. Everything he's doing in Inferno who could have spread out through X-Men and/or other books for the two years he was "Head of X."

Yes, I agree.You can criticize Hickman's writing all you want, but that has nothing to do w/ Jean.
Yeah, the "he had to hold back because everyone else wasn't ready to move on" bit keeps going over your head.

Also I'd ask you to re-read the run and let me know what you consider filler in it, because stuff like the Vulcan story has relations to Black Bolt stuff he set up before as well.It's not filler.Have you read his Avengers and FF runs?

I can tell two things right now: 1) We are debating different things and 2) it bothers you when someone criticizes Hickman. You're focused on specific characters, blaming writers to defend him, and totally disregarding my opinion and superimposing your own over mine despite the fact that I've been transparent with how I feel. I've already made it clear--repeatedly--that my criticisms of Hickman's writing are not centered on how he handled Jean but, rather, how he handled the entire franchise, so I'm not sure if you're dense or purposefully attacking the straw man. As for being angry, what's starting to piss me off is you telling me how it is that I feel and what my criticisms are based on. Please, don't be so presumptuous.

Yeah, and I said you can't blame a writer for using select characters to tell the kind of story he wrote because there is no way to rope everyone on it.And other characters had other writers handling them.
You're being just as presumptuous as well, your temper isn't my responsibility.I apologize for downplaying your opinions, wasn't my intention

Oh, please. Big deal. He Eternal-ized mutants, threw in a dash of House of Cards, and plopped them on an island. Groundbreaking. Actually, to contradict my sarcastic irreverence, it was and is sort of groundbreaking and certainly injected much-need life and novelty into the franchise. However, blaming all of the writers and predicting that they will fail without Hickman just to defend him is not a good look and screams of fanaticism over one writer. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with being a big fan of a writer, but let's call a spade a spade.

I'm blaming(and praising) other writers on how they handled their X-books and characters.You must have not read the part where I say Zeb Wells did a fantastic job on Kwannon and all that credit goes to him.
Yeah, because they went right back to wolverine written by the guy whose both X-books have fallen very flat And the guy who wrote X-men green is writing the flagship title...
But yeah I'm a fanatic

That being said, let's make something else clear: The X-Men were around and highly successful before any of the current writers, including Hickman, had careers. Moreover, the X-Men will be around long after these writers have moved on and been forgotten.

Really, I had no idea...
Also marvel officials themselves said the X-franchise needed revitalizing and that Hickman provided.How any of what you said is relevant is beyond me.

Duggan isn't responsible for the entire X-franchise. Furthermore, he was charged with writing and introducing the new team while sandwiched in between multiple major events. Even still, he has made Jean, Synch, Polaris, and Sunfire shine while introducing a handful of fascinating plot threads and adversaries, and he's only on issue #5. We'll all be able to better assess how well he's done by issue #12.

Ignore all the circumstances of Hickman's writing which were confirmed by interviews and yet make excuses for Duggan... and I'm the fanatic lmao
Also Sunfire's one page monologue isn't nearly enough shine, heck even Synch was far far better is Hickman's issues than Duggan's.Even Polaris's shine was mediocre, w/ self doubt never explored and her speech never heard.
Also any excuses for X-men green?

Jean was one of the first three mutants to be classified as an Omega Level mutant and was referred to as such many more times than whomever your "everyone" refers to. Check it.

Again I ask, how does it matter?Rachel was the first omega level mutant classified by a nimrod no less.
At the end of the day the omega status means far more now than it ever did before.

Yes, here we are, in a debate in which you insist on using straw man tactics to undermine my criticisms. Please do continue minimizing my opinion and criticisms by accusing me of just being "angry about Jean," lol. Jesus. Just so you know, in case you weren't aware, I've actually debated fans on this thread and defended the moments Hickman has given Jean.

I know, I'm saying even if you are angry about Jean or most other characters like Betsy or Rogue you can't blame the person who isn't writing them.

He "gave them all the space they needed" and still went almost nowhere with X-Men, which, again, many fans have noted.

How are these 2 things related again?
And again I already told you why his run felt like it dragged(which I agree it does btw).

I'm going to need you to quote where I "blam[ed] him for a character he didn't write" because you keep relying on the same straw man argument to discredit my opinion. To be clear, I feel Jean was one of the luckier characters during Hickman's run. She had stellar moments under Hickman, Percy, and Duggan, who is writing her beautifully again as we speak. I am not bothered by her treatment over the last couple of years because, prior to this era, she had an amazing six-year run and, during this era, she has was singled out by Hickman to be the first to go against the Krakoan government and found the new X-Men.

Again I'm not saying you're blaming him for Jean, I'm saying you can't blame a writer for a character they don't even write PERIOD.

Because he can't handle a large cast of characters, that's why. As you yourself noted, he's a concept, world-building writer. His scope is limited. For example, Claremont could do both and with more heart.

He picked a cast which was essential to his story and everyone one of them got developed.Why do you want a bloated cast involved?
Secret wars had the most beautifully written relationship b/w Reed and Doom, and he wrote this.
https://imgur.com/gallery/QG8xU
Even Xavier and Mags speech in X-men 4 is amazing character work, Apocalypse has been great under his pen and people like Mystique, Destiny, Moira and even Emma are at their best rn.
I agree he's much more of a world-builder but let's not pretend he can't write characters as well.Btw Please show me anything Percy/Duggan have written that have the same impact and nuance?

*Sigh* again Claremont had a clean slate... and creating something instead of having to fix.

Maybe we should end this here, I like you a lot and agreeing to disagree might be inevitable

[thechronic92]

If you are the head of X and your job is to revitalise the series and after 3 years, only 4 or 5 characters who all happen to be villains or in-between feel like they are the only ones who matter, then you've failed at your job. There will be better writers to come after Hickman I'm sure of it.

[Spiderfan001]

If you are the head of X and your job is to revitalise the series and after 3 years, only 4 or 5 characters who all happen to be villains or in-between feel like they are the only ones who matter, then you've failed at your job. There will be better writers to come after Hickman I'm sure of it.

Impact on final plot isn't the end all be all.Also Xavier, Mags, Destiny, Moira, Mystique, Sinister, Emma did mater so that's 7 minimum w/out including Orchis/Nimrod
Everyone loves hellions even though they are the most inconsequencial

Either way w/ what we know of how it's going to go further I don't see the number changing, just the people who mattered at best

[Mercury]

He made those characters... you're comparing someone w/ a blank slate to someone who has half a century of sh*t to figure out.
Also Hickman had to fit his story in 12 issues in a way it made sense and revitalized the X franchise at the same time.

Firstly, Hickman pretty much gave himself a blank slate. Secondly, he did an amazing job with House of X and Powers of X, but he had more than twelve issues after that to get his **** together and tell his story.

Go for it, let me know after your re-read.Ofc it would still be your opinion which you are entitled to.

Oh, I'm going for it and coming with it, Spidey. You can trust me on that. And it'll be more than just my opinion that I lay out on the table, i.e., I'll be clocking the number of issues, pages, and panels each character was featured in.

He didn't fail to do something if that was never his goal/responsibility...

He was given the title "Head of X" for a reason. If all he had been charged to do was a story centered on a handful of characters, they would've given him a limited series, which he was also given (i.e., HoX/PoX).

I'm starting to understand why you get "b*tchy" when people say Jean is nothing w/out phoenix, etc. because this argument is so similar to it

Please, do enlighten me. The last time I checked, I get bitchy because people--purported fans of Jean--are coming into her appreciation thread to call her "nothing." If I were of another mind, I would report them like I've seen other users in other appreciation threads do and have their posts swiftly deleted, especially since it contributes nothing to a discussion about APPRECIATING Jean Grey. Thankfully, I believe in freedom of speech...and decorum and etiquette.

It's not his writing team, he's not the editor. I agree on the latter, but you did read all the interviews where he said he wanted to move on but everyone else told him to not and it got to the point where he left the entire project.Mercury what are you on rn

Again, he was given the title "Head of X." And the fact that he didn't take charge and say, "Look, I get that you guys want to lag behind a little more, but I'm going on with my story. Let's work together. I run this ship," is part of the reason I say he failed. I'm not on anything. I'm being clear regarding my criticisms of his work. That doesn't mean I'm angry at him or dislike his writing; in fact, I've said repeatedly that he's a great writer and that I've enjoyed much of what he's contributed to the franchise. I simply think he could've done better.

Yes, I agree.You can criticize Hickman's writing all you want, but that has nothing to do w/ Jean.

Funny, it seems I've had to repeatedly remind you of this. The only reason we're even having this debate is that you made an offhanded comparison between Bendis and Hickman and I noticed that your criticisms of Bendis mirrored mine of Hickman.

Yeah, the "he had to hold back because everyone else wasn't ready to move on" bit keeps going over your head.

It's not going over my head. I just don't find it to be a valid excuse, especially, again, when he was "Head of X."

Also I'd ask you to re-read the run and let me know what you consider filler in it, because stuff like the Vulcan story has relations to Black Bolt stuff he set up before as well.It's not filler.Have you read his Avengers and FF runs?

And what came of the Vulcan story in the end? Hm? No, I haven't read his other franchise runs.

Yeah, and I said you can't blame a writer for using select characters to tell the kind of story he wrote because there is no way to rope everyone on it. And other characters had other writers handling them.

I know he couldn't personally handle each character. But, again, he was charged with steering the entire franchise and was the appointed "Head of X." He should've had better control of his ship. He failed as a "head."

You're being just as presumptuous as well, your temper isn't my responsibility.I apologize for downplaying your opinions, wasn't my intention

I accept your apology and still love you.

I'm blaming(and praising) other writers on how they handled their X-books and characters.You must have not read the part where I say Zeb Wells did a fantastic job on Kwannon and all that credit goes to him.
Yeah, because they went right back to wolverine written by the guy whose both X-books have fallen very flat And the guy who wrote X-men green is writing the flagship title...
But yeah I'm a fanatic

I didn't call you a fanatic, I said your adamance in defending Hickman "screams of fanaticism over one writer." I exhibit fanaticism over Jean nearly everyday, so I'm certainly not judging.

Really, I had no idea...
Also marvel officials themselves said the X-franchise needed revitalizing and that Hickman provided.How any of what you said is relevant is beyond me.

It's relevant because you imply that now that Hickman is gone, the writers and, more specifically, the franchise is doomed to fail. I'm saying it won't fail.

Ignore all the circumstances of Hickman's writing which were confirmed by interviews and yet make excuses for Duggan... and I'm the fanatic lmao
Also Sunfire's one page monologue isn't nearly enough shine, heck even Synch was far far better is Hickman's issues than Duggan's.Even Polaris's shine was mediocre, w/ self doubt never explored and her speech never heard.
Also any excuses for X-men green?

Fair points regarding the other characters, but he's featured then in terms of feats and characterizations. As for X-Men: Green, I'm not going to lie--it was a lot of fun--but I also think it was in bad taste. I feel really bad for fans of Nature Girl.

Again I ask, how does it matter?Rachel was the first omega level mutant classified by a nimrod no less.
At the end of the day the omega status means far more now than it ever did before.

That's why I said Jean was "one of three." Bobby was the other. Even still, the classification Omega Level Mutant was defined with Jean and Bobby, not Rachel. The classification, IIRC, didn't have a clear definition then. To add insult to injury, he didn't even classify Rachel as OLM. lmao! Instead, we got Quentin Quire, for goddsakes.

I know, I'm saying even if you are angry about Jean or most other characters like Betsy or Rogue you can't blame the person who isn't writing them.

And I've repeatedly made it clear to you that my criticisms of Hickman are not motivated by some anger you imagine I harbor because he didn't write her more. I'm sorry, but I'm not that petty.

How are these 2 things related again?
And again I already told you why his run felt like it dragged(which I agree it does btw).

They're related because one can chew gum and walk at the same time. He could've given them all of the space they needed and still moved his series (X-Men) forward. Hell, the story he's telling in Inferno only requires about--surprise!--five to eight characters.

Again I'm not saying you're blaming him for Jean, I'm saying you can't blame a writer for a character they don't even write PERIOD.

You absolutely accused me of being "angry." And I quote: "Again you're angry because he didn't use Jean and instead used other characters and Jean was handled by others.That's not on him." This is patently untrue.

He picked a cast which was essential to his story and everyone one of them got developed.Why do you want a bloated cast involved?
Secret wars had the most beautifully written relationship b/w Reed and Doom, and he wrote this.
https://imgur.com/gallery/QG8xU
Even Xavier and Mags speech in X-men 4 is amazing character work, Apocalypse has been great under his pen and people like Mystique, Destiny, Moira and even Emma are at their best rn.
I agree he's much more of a world-builder but let's not pretend he can't write characters as well.Btw Please show me anything Percy/Duggan have written that have the same impact and nuance?

I haven't denied that Hickman has written the few characters he's chosen to focus on well. But if you're going to be the "Head of X," you better be prepared to handle more than just a few mutants. This isn't Avengers and it isn't the Fantastic Four. Seriously, you mistake my criticisms of Hickman for being angry with or not liking him and for not appreciating his work. I own the HoX/PoX hardcover and have read it more than once. I actually love it. I'm loving Inferno too. That doesn't mean I can't recognize and point out the flaws in his writing and decision-making.

*Sigh* again Claremont had a clean slate... and creating something instead of having to fix.

And, again, Hickman pretty much gave himself a clean slate.

Maybe we should end this here, I like you a lot and agreeing to disagree might be inevitable

We can end it here and agree to disagree. And you know that I like you a lot, too. I find you irresistible, actually, and I don't know why. lmao! :hug:

P.S. We haven't had one of these long debates since we first met on here. It was fun!

[Mercury]

But I do think it has to be pointed out that a lot of that had to do with how much oversight power he was given.....like others have said, a lot of other people contributed to the creative developments of the 80s but Claremont DID have significant veto and overriding power......and personally, I think the umm, lesser quality of his works ever since he RETURNED to the franchise in the 2000s speaks to the fact that Claremont's big flaw is he's never really learned to play well with others when he doesn't get to be the one in charge. He has a tendency to treat the X-characters like they're his toys and his alone every time he gets his hands on his favorites, and just outright ignores or invalidates anything done to them that he doesn't like, even when the reality is all of that is likely to be overturned and reset back to what it was before him, because he doesn't GET to do that anymore and he just does not acknowledge that.

I'm actually not the hugest Hickman fan because although I like the cerebral nature of a lot of his plots and overarching elements, his character work tends to be pretty cut and paste. He's **** at acknowledging when characters have relationships that SHOULD be affected by what he's doing with those characters if he considers those relationships and the characters they connect with irrelevant to his larger plot. He doesn't really ever take time for just quiet emotional beats because his version of pacing prioritizes using those quiet, slower moments in a plot framework for big 'this changes everything' reveals instead of 'this is how these two characters are impacted by everything that's changed' reveals.

But that said, he's at least more aware of being one part of a larger whole, even when in charge, than Claremont ever has been in my estimation.

Very good points! You've given me much food for thought.

If you are the head of X and your job is to revitalise the series and after 3 years, only 4 or 5 characters who all happen to be villains or in-between feel like they are the only ones who matter, then you've failed at your job. There will be better writers to come after Hickman I'm sure of it.

BINGO. All of this.

[Celestialbodies]

I'm not sure what's more confusing here, the fact that Jean thought Scott using his blasts would tire him out or him thinking he couldn't move a few tons of snow would be too much for her.

I'm sure there's context here I'm missing.

Don't quote me but Scott had just previously had emergency surgery, and I thought the tone of that scene was implying Jean was pregnant with Rachel at the time. I remember reading something about it but it may have simply been a rumor!

But I do think it has to be pointed out that a lot of that had to do with how much oversight power he was given.....like others have said, a lot of other people contributed to the creative developments of the 80s but Claremont DID have significant veto and overriding power......and personally, I think the umm, lesser quality of his works ever since he RETURNED to the franchise in the 2000s speaks to the fact that Claremont's big flaw is he's never really learned to play well with others when he doesn't get to be the one in charge. He has a tendency to treat the X-characters like they're his toys and his alone every time he gets his hands on his favorites, and just outright ignores or invalidates anything done to them that he doesn't like, even when the reality is all of that is likely to be overturned and reset back to what it was before him, because he doesn't GET to do that anymore and he just does not acknowledge that.

I'm actually not the hugest Hickman fan because although I like the cerebral nature of a lot of his plots and overarching elements, his character work tends to be pretty cut and paste. He's **** at acknowledging when characters have relationships that SHOULD be affected by what he's doing with those characters if he considers those relationships and the characters they connect with irrelevant to his larger plot. He doesn't really ever take time for just quiet emotional beats because his version of pacing prioritizes using those quiet, slower moments in a plot framework for big 'this changes everything' reveals instead of 'this is how these two characters are impacted by everything that's changed' reveals.


But that said, he's at least more aware of being one part of a larger whole, even when in charge, than Claremont ever has been in my estimation.

Agreed, huge fan of Hickman's writing, was not a huge fan of his choice to focus mostly on a select few of mutantdom.

By not giving many of the "core X-men" any semblance of focus such as he did with his favorite characters. It made much of his overall run feel disjointed especially when we have no idea how these mainstays even feel about any of the changes in this new era.

If you are the head of X and your job is to revitalise the series and after 3 years, only 4 or 5 characters who all happen to be villains or in-between feel like they are the only ones who matter, then you've failed at your job. There will be better writers to come after Hickman I'm sure of it.

Completely agreed, we can be a fan of Hickman's previous work, while also acknowledging that much of what he did with the X-men didn't work. His FF run felt like the story of a father/son, his Avengers run felt like the founding of a superhero army, but his X-men lacked a lot of heart. The key component of the best X-men runs. So many of the influential characters in this series were left with only superficial contributions to the overall narrative. His usage
of as many mutants as possible across the board was inspired and I hope there is a push to keep as many mutants active as possible. But he failed at developing his overall cast, many of his character interactions feel off, and outside of his issues many of the key story elements highlighted in HOX/POX. Have been left underdeveloped, and leaving many readers wanting.

[Mercury]

Agreed, huge fan of Hickman's writing, was not a huge fan of his choice to focus mostly on a select few of mutantdom.

By not giving many of the "core X-men" any semblance of focus such as he did with his favorite characters. It made much of his overall run feel disjointed especially when we have no idea how these mainstays even feel about any of the changes in this new era.

Completely agreed, we can be a fan of Hickman's previous work, while also acknowledging that much of what he did with the X-men didn't work. His FF run felt like the story of a father/son, his Avengers run felt like the founding of a superhero army, but his X-men lacked a lot of heart. The key component of the best X-men runs. So many of the influential characters in this series were left with only superficial contributions to the overall narrative. His usage
of as many mutants as possible across the board was inspired and I hope there is a push to keep as many mutants active as possible. But he failed at developing his overall cast, many of his character interactions feel off, and outside of his issues many of the key story elements highlighted in HOX/POX. Have been left underdeveloped, and leaving many readers wanting.

I couldn’t have said it better. Such missed opportunities!

[Mercury]

Matthew Nickerson colored that recently drawn piece by Brett Booth and inked by Aaron Thompson. I love the muted palette (that’s the green I love for her), but the fire could use some shading and texture. Overall, great work!