Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[mike7171]

Phoenix has so much baggage that comes with it. Everytime the Phoenix comes back to Jean, she dies.

Just let Jean Grey grow on her own and transcend into cosmic level awareness at PAR with the phoenix. Let her achieve phoenix like abilities. Let it be like, as long as Jean grows, the Phoenix flourishes as well, like a complement to each other. In Avengers, the Dark Phoenix looks like a griffon, ugh.

I want that X-Men Red Annual idea of her not holding back to be taken to the next level. It's better storytelling to show Jean grow, than to shove that darn cock down Jean's throat.

[otipep_90]

My idea is that Jean in Uncanny X-Men 100-101 became a being of pure psionic energy, boosted by the solar flare, and became the original Phoenix. When Jean died on the moon in UXM #137, the Phoenix part of her, the core part of her psionic powers, survived as a separate entity. It started bonding with different creatures in order to survive and grew stronger, becoming a force on its own. It still needed to bond with other beings, however. It gained the knowledge and powers from beings it bonded with, growing ever stronger. And then one of them was a time traveller. The Phoenix force was now able to travel back in time, looking for its creator (Jean). It ended up in the Big Bang, gaining even more cosmic powers, and then we have the story told about its origin in Excalibur (at least I think that was where Big Bang was mentioned), that the Phoenix is one of the oldest beings in the universe.
Since it originated from Jean, before evolving into a separate being, this explains why it was attracted to the cavewoman, who resembles Jean. And why it always wants to return to Jean.
Since Jean had created a cocoon for her body to heal in, as a second chance, she has no first hand memory of how she was the true, original Phoenix. Yes, she has gotten its memories, but not before she was told what had happened, so the memories she got were influenced by what she was told.

It is not perfect by any means, but this would both keep the Phoenix force retcon as well as have Jean be the one, true original Phoenix.

Love it Johnny! If only Marvel could structure it along these lines. Hopefully Gillen and Duggan can rescue the PF mythos (and celestials) during AXE from the hot mess Aaron has created. Celestial vomit, really? I gave him the benefit of doubt with his first arc, but he has broken every toy in the box and made a hodgepodge.

If anyone ever needed a back to basics it’s the Phoenix.

[Mercury]

Phoenix has so much baggage that comes with it. Everytime the Phoenix comes back to Jean, she dies.

Just let Jean Grey grow on her own and transcend into cosmic level awareness at PAR with the phoenix. Let her achieve phoenix like abilities. Let it be like, as long as Jean grows, the Phoenix flourishes as well, like a complement to each other. In Avengers, the Dark Phoenix looks like a griffon, ugh.

I want that X-Men Red Annual idea of her not holding back to be taken to the next level.

This is what I'm hoping for too. I mean, let's get real, despite whatever is going on with it currently, everyone knows that the Phoenix Force belongs to Jean. That's canon in pop culture and amongst laypeople, which is really all that matters. You tell most people what's going on with the Phoenix Force in comics today and they will respond with a blank look, a pause, and, "Anyway, so, I love that time that Jean ate the star and years later resurrected Emma Frost," lol.

It's better storytelling to show Jean grow, than to shove that darn cock down Jean's throat.

Oh hell no, Mike. You did not go there. lmao.

Love it Johnny! If only Marvel could structure it along these lines. Hopefully Gillen and Duggan can rescue the PF mythos (and celestials) during AXE from the hot mess Aaron has created. Celestial vomit, really? I gave him the benefit of doubt with his first arc, but he has broken every toy in the box and made a hodgepodge.

If anyone ever needed a back to basics it’s the Phoenix.

Everything always comes back full circle.

[johnnysv75]

A bit complicated but still, what an interesting story!

Yeah, I know, it’s because I tried to fit the convoluted Phoenix retcons into my idea. :-) Everytime I say that Jean originally was the Phoenix all by herself so many are referring to the Phoenix retcon and say that ”oh no, she wasn’t, it was a cosmic force”. This is me trying to keep the original story as well as please everyone who feel the retcon is truer than the original story.

To me the original story is both beautiful and important. A brave and powerful woman tries to save her loved ones and transcends - she reaches her ultimate potential. A potential Moira and Xavier always suspected she had (as told in UXM #125).
When that is taken away from her, it is the editors who told Claremont that no woman could be as powerful as Thor all over again. With the retcon those guys won. ”See, she was never that powerful. She needed a cosmic force to help her.”

This notion has for some reason followed her throughout the years, that Jean can’t reach those levels. Yes, it is hinted, but everytime someone has Jean explore her powers something happens. Kelly and Seagle writes Jean as Phoenix? There is a psi war and all telepaths lose their powers. Morrison explores Jean as Phoenix? Her death is one of the longest lasting for a Marvel hero. Taylor has Jean say that she wants to explore her potential? Hickman gives the X-books an entire overhaul. (Just kidding. I know it had nothing to do with Jean. Or did it …? )

Just let Jean Grey grow on her own and transcend into cosmic level awareness at PAR with the phoenix. Let her achieve phoenix like abilities. Let it be like, as long as Jean grows, the Phoenix flourishes as well, like a complement to each other. In Avengers, the Dark Phoenix looks like a griffon, ugh.

Yes, that is probably the most elegant solution today. I loved Teen Jean’s abilities. I thought: ”Okay, it is not the Phoenix, but it is almost as good.” (I just love the Phoenix raptor for Jean. It is an iconic look.)

I want that X-Men Red Annual idea of her not holding back to be taken to the next level. It's better storytelling to show Jean grow, than to shove that darn cock down Jean's throat.

I also love the idea from the annual.

And oh no, you didn’t.

Love it Johnny! If only Marvel could structure it along these lines. Hopefully Gillen and Duggan can rescue the PF mythos (and celestials) during AXE from the hot mess Aaron has created. Celestial vomit, really? I gave him the benefit of doubt with his first arc, but he has broken every toy in the box and made a hodgepodge.

If anyone ever needed a back to basics it’s the Phoenix.

Thank you!
And yes, what Aaron is doing is awful.

[Starchilde]

In Avengers, the Dark Phoenix looks like a griffon, ugh.

I found so nonsensical when random characters are labelled "Dark Phoenix", bc they don't have anything to do with the og Dark Phoenix, not even close. They are just called Dark Phoenix and that's it lmao. It was such a monumental tragedy for Jean Grey and now it's a random villain that looks like a Digimon in Aaron's Avengers. And I really like Scott but I felt a lot of cringe when they labelled him "Dark Phoenix" at the end of AVX. I wish they stop naming whatever thing "dark phoenix" (but that will not happen with Aaron writing lmao).

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Phoenix has so much baggage that comes with it. Everytime the Phoenix comes back to Jean, she dies.

Jean's last death was entirely due to shipping. "Jean is unbeatable with the Phoenix so she has to die" is a point undermined by the fact that she got beat with it.

And the death was about shipping the character she's a love interest for with a different character anyway. Had nothing to do with the Phoenix.

[MechaJeanix]

I agree Jean being Phoenix shouldn't automatically mean she's going to die but I understand why fans feel that way. I just wish in Phoenix Resurrection: the return of Jean Grey that Jean got to do something big and meaningful with the Phoenix before it left from her. I hated the storyline that it was toxic relationship and that the Phoenix deceives and manipulates her. Rosenberg read Morrison's run but got that from it? Yikes! I assume Jean would lose the Phoenix since she was coming back and writers like Dennis Hopeless had already said that the Phoenix power was too much for any person to control/wield. It didn't bother me that she lost the Phoenix it was just how it happened that I hated.

My problem is that Jean's Phoenix stories often get retconned. We have the retcon with Dark Phoenix but even Jean in Here Comes Tomorrow is widely held to be an alternate reality Jean despite the acknowledgment in Phoenix Endsong. Heck some fans argue that Endsong is in question. I think if Jean was going to lose the Phoenix she should have had a destiny fulfilled arc where she got to do something big and meaningful and show why she is the "perfect host" or whatever.

But alas the Phoenix has been mangled so bad and though I will always love Jean as Phoenix (I think it is her best codename and best costume) it is just so messy right now. It may can be savaged but my fear is that it will stay in the Avengers office for a long time. Who knows what other craziness they are going to do with it.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Honestly, not only can the Phoenix be salvaged; it simply will be. The Mouse will be publishing these characters in some form until the end of humanity. The Phoenix will change again regardless of what they are doing with it at this particular moment. May as well start fixing it now and installing hard rules into the mythos right now.

[Wiccan]

A very easy way to reconnect Jean with the Phoenix imo would be, ironically, using one of Aaron's introductions to the mythos: The 1000000 B.C Phoenix.

Say she's an ancestor of Jean. Maybe even that Jean is her reincarnation. I don't know if that's already a thing or not, but if you say the Phoenix host was the first mutant, you're then connecting Jean to the origins of mutantkind itself. I even have a reason as to why the Phoenix wouldn't tell her that and instead pull all of those Phoenix Resurrection shennanigans: She knows Jean doesn't like to have her fate/future decided for her, so she wanted Jean bonding with her again to be fully her own choice.

[Mercury]

A very easy way to reconnect Jean with the Phoenix imo would be, ironically, using one of Aaron's introductions to the mythos: The 1000000 B.C Phoenix.

Say she's an ancestor of Jean. Maybe even that Jean is her reincarnation. I don't know if that's already a thing or not, but if you say the Phoenix host was the first mutant, you're then connecting Jean to the origins of mutantkind itself. I even have a reason as to why the Phoenix wouldn't tell her that and instead pull all of those Phoenix Resurrection shennanigans: She knows Jean doesn't like to have her fate/future decided for her, so she wanted Jean bonding with her again to be fully her own choice.

I thought of this too! Especially because they bear a resemblance. Also, I love the rest of your idea.

[Subliminally]

My idea is that Jean in Uncanny X-Men 100-101 became a being of pure psionic energy, boosted by the solar flare, and became the original Phoenix. (Just like the story originally is told.) When Jean died on the moon in UXM #137, the Phoenix part of her, the core part of her psionic powers, survived as a separate entity. It started bonding with different creatures in order to survive and grew stronger, becoming a force on its own. It still needed to bond with other beings, however. It gained the knowledge and powers from beings it bonded with, growing ever stronger. And then one of them was a time traveller. The Phoenix force was now able to travel back in time, looking for its creator (Jean). It ended up in the Big Bang, gaining even more cosmic powers, and then we have the story told about its origin in Excalibur (at least I think that was where Big Bang was mentioned), that the Phoenix is one of the oldest beings in the universe.
Since it originated from Jean, before evolving into a separate being, this explains why it was attracted to the cavewoman, who resembles Jean. And why it always wants to return to Jean.
Since Jean had created a cocoon for her body to heal in, as a second chance, she has no first hand memory of how she was the true, original Phoenix. Yes, she has gotten its memories, but not before she was told what had happened, so the memories she got were influenced by what she was told.

It is not perfect by any means, but this would both keep the Phoenix force retcon as well as have Jean be the one, true original Phoenix.

I actually like this idea. God knows it's leagues better than what's going on with the Phoenix now.

[Mercury]

I forgot to share this design, which I like quite a bit!

[otipep_90]

I found so nonsensical when random characters are labelled "Dark Phoenix", bc they don't have anything to do with the og Dark Phoenix, not even close. They are just called Dark Phoenix and that's it lmao. It was such a monumental tragedy for Jean Grey and now it's a random villain that looks like a Digimon in Aaron's Avengers. And I really like Scott but I felt a lot of cringe when they labelled him "Dark Phoenix" at the end of AVX. I wish they stop naming whatever thing "dark phoenix" (but that will not happen with Aaron writing lmao).

It amazes me how many writers didn’t don’t understand that ‘Dark Phoenix’ is the other side of the coin to Jean’s ‘Black Queen’ persona as molded by Mastermind. Largest miss interpretation in the franchise. It almost similar to how Ernest was a reprogrammed Casandra Nova.

Dark Phoenix was born of trauma and the loss of self-identity, not by a corruptible powerup.

[BobbysWorld]

It amazes me how many writers didn’t don’t understand that ‘Dark Phoenix’ is the other side of the coin to Jean’s ‘Black Queen’ persona as molded by Mastermind. Largest miss interpretation in the franchise. It almost similar to how Ernest was a reprogrammed Casandra Nova.

Dark Phoenix was born of trauma and the loss of self-identity, not by a corruptible powerup.

Honestly, my biggest wish when they've focused on Jean and the Phoenix or the Dark Phoenix is to not make it always just two sides of the coin, but factor Maddy in and view the THREE of them....Jean, Maddy and the Phoenix.....as an allegory for the triplicate goddess figure. (Which ironically they just delved into with Wanda in ToM, though I think it works MUCH better with Jean, as I outline below):

The idea of the triplicate goddess figure repeats over and over throughout global mythologies and stories, from the Fates and Graeae to the Morrigan to the Norns to the Weird Sisters, etc, etc, etc.

Like, just the STRUCTURE of the concept of the three-sided/three-natured powerful woman or women, it just works and resonates on an internalized level that most people instantly recognize and are familiar with even if they don’t even realize it or realize why.

Just thinking of all the stuff Marvel could’ve done with that concept and structure if instead of making it so being the latest Phoenix host is just a party favor handed out freely at all major in-universe events, they’d just had some chill and contained it not just to the duality of Jean and the Phoenix……but the triplicate nature of Jean and Madelyne Pryor and the Phoenix.

Like, there’s just so many different ways you can explore that particular trope if they’d made THAT the trope, instead of just the Jean/Dark Phoenix dichotomy, because it opens it up from just a yawn-worthy ‘oh look, a super powerful woman who can’t control her power and is corrupted by it how novel, how interesting, how real,’ to a lot more complex and nuanced triangle where you’ve got….

Maddy the Goblyn Queen and Jean the hero on opposite extremes with the Phoenix in the middle and thus able to be either a force for good or the Dark Phoenix…..

But then you could ALSO just as easily look at it from the angle of Maddy aka Anodyne the healer and the Dark Phoenix are on opposite extremes and Jean is in the middle, with THOSE representing the duality of two different sides of Jean, as each of them were in effect born of her in different ways before taking on lives of their own but in entirely different directions….

And then additionally you could just as easily look at it from a third angle and put Maddy in the middle with Jean and the Dark Phoenix on either side of her and the lure in opposing directions between the altruism of heroism and the protection of power untempered by mercy, being like, mirrors held up reflecting the different paths Maddy could go down.

I’m just saying, instead of Jean vs Dark Phoenix or Jean vs Maddy, like, when you treat all THREE of them as pieces of a whole, there’s so much more ground to explore and possibilities to play off of.

Because the major flaw of pairing just any two of those three up for examination is that you’re always going to end up with a dichotomy where it looks like its either or, all or nothing…..if Maddy’s the bad guy, then Jean must be the good guy, and Jean’s so much more complicated than that because the Dark Phoenix was originally born of impulses the Phoenix found within Jean while lacking Jean’s humanity to limit them.

Or when both the Dark Phoenix and Maddy as the Goblyn Queen are viewed next to Jean one at a time, it in effect treats both of them as the Ms. Hyde to Jean’s Dr. Jekyll, which ignores the reality that Maddy was always more than just Jean’s darker half, she was a complete person of her own who always had just as much potential for good and initial desires to pursue THOSE inclinations before Marvel’s overall storylines simply just never let her.

Etc, etc, etc.

Idk what the point of this post is, just randomly musing about how the instinct to make everything about perfect foils and iconically opposed characters as two sides of the same coin, like, it doesn’t come from nowhere, sure, but its worth recognizing that it can also be very limiting in its own right and just opening up a singular spectrum to a three-sided triangle where EVERY corner of said triangle is a distinct entity in their own right and thus can be viewed from more than one angle rather than just inherently viewed as the opposite of whatever the chosen focus point is, like……that can make for some very different and much more nuanced perspectives.

[otipep_90]

I forgot to share this design, which I like quite a bit!

Nice! Reminds me of the Evolution cartoon aesthetics. I wonder how it would look with a gold tiara like the one from the Hellfire Gala dress, instead of the head sock.