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  1. #151
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Yeah, the name thing can be explained as him mom giving him two names to honor his heritage or a middle name.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    I think maaaaaybe you could still do the honorary name with his mom being Xebellian. Maybe saying it's a name his grandfather had thought of it. Or they could make it a middle name lol.
    I actually never even thought about the dye thing. I definitely want a panel of Jackson coloring his hair now haha.



    I mean between KSD's run and the Future State issues that's really all you need. With KSD he was actively working with Arthur and learning from him, while trying to discover his own brand of heroism. Even had his own solo adventure in trying to rescue. With this being called "The Becoming" he's probably still going to be working to get that mantle and going through more personal stakes. I'm pretty sure by the end it'll all feel extremely natural.
    Yeah, I just don't feel the same.
    As far as I'm concerned he needs a ton more experience and time, he's been barely been Aqualad for all that long let alone taking on the mantle of Aquaman.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    Yeah, I just don't feel the same.
    As far as I'm concerned he needs a ton more experience and time, he's been barely been Aqualad for all that long let alone taking on the mantle of Aquaman.
    Yeah, I feel like it's a little too soon to be making him Aquaman already, but I felt the same about making Jon Kent Superman.

  4. #154
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    with all due respect, I'm gonna have to call cap on this whole "experience" thing; as if we're not talking about a character that's been around for OVER a decade at this point. even in universe Jackson has been operating as a hero (with or without Aquaman) for a few years now. so do we really need 2-3 decades of story under his cap as a supporting character before he's worthy of becoming something else? no, these are fictional characters, time and experience can be written into their story. did we need years of build up before Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker, or Miles Morales, or Terry McGinnis? no, their journey to becoming was explained in story. even Jace Fox is proving that with Next Batman, Second Son and I Am Batman. again, Jackson/Kaldur has been around for over a decade, people have quite literally grown up with him. the minute general audiences became familiarized with him as Aquaman from the show and the idea was then introduced in the comics, that was all that was really needed to chart that direction for the character. the premise has been established, so now the narrative can be explored. so as I see it, the experience talk is a hyper-rationalization: a gaslight. not saying it's a malicious point but I gotta call a spade a spade.

    like, keep it a bean, all I hear from "he's too inexperienced" or "it's too soon for him" is "I just don't want him as Aquaman because he's not my idea of who Aquaman is"; whether that's out of wanting more Arthur as Aquaman or feeling Garth as more deserving, or simply not liking Jackson enough to accept the promotion. thats all fine and valid but framing Jackson as being "not ready" essentially misrepresents the idea as being conceptually unsound for the character or on a story-level, which it isn't. so it's not really a character issue or a narrative issue, that's an audience issue.
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  5. #155
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    with all due respect, I'm gonna have to call cap on this whole "experience" thing; as if we're not talking about a character that's been around for OVER a decade at this point. even in universe Jackson has been operating as a hero (with or without Aquaman) for a few years now. so do we really need 2-3 decades of story under his cap as a supporting character before he's worthy of becoming something else? no, these are fictional characters, time and experience can be written into their story. did we need years of build up before Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker, or Miles Morales, or Terry McGinnis? no, their journey to becoming was explained in story. even Jace Fox is proving that with Next Batman, Second Son and I Am Batman. again, Jackson/Kaldur has been around for over a decade, people have quite literally grown up with him. the minute general audiences became familiarized with him as Aquaman from the show and the idea was then introduced in the comics, that was all that was really needed to chart that direction for the character. the premise has been established, so now the narrative can be explored. so as I see it, the experience talk is a hyper-rationalization: a gaslight. not saying it's a malicious point but I gotta call a spade a spade.

    like, keep it a bean, all I hear from "he's too inexperienced" or "it's too soon for him" is "I just don't want him as Aquaman because he's not my idea of who Aquaman is"; whether that's out of wanting more Arthur as Aquaman or feeling Garth as more deserving, or simply not liking Jackson enough to accept the promotion. thats all fine and valid but framing Jackson as being "not ready" essentially misrepresents the idea as being conceptually unsound for the character or on a story-level, which it isn't. so it's not really a character issue or a narrative issue, that's an audience issue.
    In-universe I think he's only been Aqualad for about maybe a year? Two if we're being generous but I don't think there was that much of a time gap between TT where he started out and KSD's Aquaman run, but I guess now where "everything counts" they could always extend the time period.

    The characters you cite all had completely different contexts in relation to their mantles and how they acquired them or what they were actually intended for so I don't really feel the comparison is as apt. I get what you're saying, but I also don't think that people's projection of the character built up from media necessarily negates his actual, in-comics, standing but that's just my opinion. And even like in the show his character career extended into years that the show can facilitate with all the time skips and off-screen character development that I don't think is replicable in terms of comics, but that's just my take.

    I mean, sure there are probably people who view the mantle change for the reasons you state but there also probably who view it in a way that they feel like he's barely been Aqualad in the comics and now they're making him Aquaman after only, like, one run where he's actually in an Aquaman book?

    It's like with trying to spin Jon Kent as an 18-year old Superman to me It just doesn't feel like the right time for it or that they built up to it. Just my POV.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    with all due respect, I'm gonna have to call cap on this whole "experience" thing; as if we're not talking about a character that's been around for OVER a decade at this point. even in universe Jackson has been operating as a hero (with or without Aquaman) for a few years now. so do we really need 2-3 decades of story under his cap as a supporting character before he's worthy of becoming something else? no, these are fictional characters, time and experience can be written into their story. did we need years of build up before Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker, or Miles Morales, or Terry McGinnis? no, their journey to becoming was explained in story. even Jace Fox is proving that with Next Batman, Second Son and I Am Batman. again, Jackson/Kaldur has been around for over a decade, people have quite literally grown up with him. the minute general audiences became familiarized with him as Aquaman from the show and the idea was then introduced in the comics, that was all that was really needed to chart that direction for the character. the premise has been established, so now the narrative can be explored. so as I see it, the experience talk is a hyper-rationalization: a gaslight. not saying it's a malicious point but I gotta call a spade a spade.

    like, keep it a bean, all I hear from "he's too inexperienced" or "it's too soon for him" is "I just don't want him as Aquaman because he's not my idea of who Aquaman is"; whether that's out of wanting more Arthur as Aquaman or feeling Garth as more deserving, or simply not liking Jackson enough to accept the promotion. thats all fine and valid but framing Jackson as being "not ready" essentially misrepresents the idea as being conceptually unsound for the character or on a story-level, which it isn't. so it's not really a character issue or a narrative issue, that's an audience issue.
    Problem with what you're saying is, no one grew up with this guy, he made a few appearances in Brightest Day, and then disappeared until Rebirth, where he wasn't even a hero yet until Teen Titans happened, then he disappeared again until he started showing up in Aquaman, people grew up with the YJ version but that's a whole different character to be quite frank as Kaldur in the show was born and raised in Atlantis, grew up with characters like Tula and Garth, had years of experience as Aqualad and was one of the most mature and capable heroes of his generation, to the point where when the team picked a leader it unanimously agreed that he was the best candidate.
    Jackson in the mainline comics however isn't like that, he's just started out, he's barely done anything and he shouldn't get the same clout the YJ version does just being an incarnation of him.
    And the characters you're using as examples don't even work in comparison, Terry became Batman in show that was set way into the future when Bruce Wayne was an old man, Miles became Spider-Man in an alternate universe, and Jace as I know Future Slate is another Alternate Universe story.
    What's happening with Jackson however is happening in the mainline DCU, where Arthur is still perfectly fine and Jackson has barely been Aqualad for all that long.

  7. #157
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    I'm gonna have to go with lemonpeace on this. Jackson has been gone a long time but if we take account of what happened ever since his debut in Rebirth he has gotten many experiences just by himself.

    Many younger characters have gotten experience without guidance and landed in bigger roles.

    We have no idea if he's becoming Aquaman right after this mini series. The title suggest it but plans can be changed and we don't know the whole narrative this book is going to push. This may be the book where we finally get behind the character more.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    I'm gonna have to go with lemonpeace on this. Jackson has been gone a long time but if we take account of what happened ever since his debut in Rebirth he has gotten many experiences just by himself.

    Many younger characters have gotten experience without guidance and landed in bigger roles.

    We have no idea if he's becoming Aquaman right after this mini series. The title suggest it but plans can be changed and we don't know the whole narrative this book is going to push. This may be the book where we finally get behind the character more.
    I guess he got decent experience with Damian's Titans, his brief stint with YJ, and in the last Aquaman run. Whether that's enough is probably up to personal opinion, which I guess is the same for the legacy push.

  9. #159
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    There is no one else up for the role so might as well

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    There is no one else up for the role so might as well
    I mean, there's not really an opening to begin with, but then again that's not stopping Jace or Jon Kent .

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    with all due respect, I'm gonna have to call cap on this whole "experience" thing; as if we're not talking about a character that's been around for OVER a decade at this point. even in universe Jackson has been operating as a hero (with or without Aquaman) for a few years now. so do we really need 2-3 decades of story under his cap as a supporting character before he's worthy of becoming something else? no, these are fictional characters, time and experience can be written into their story. did we need years of build up before Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker, or Miles Morales, or Terry McGinnis? no, their journey to becoming was explained in story. even Jace Fox is proving that with Next Batman, Second Son and I Am Batman. again, Jackson/Kaldur has been around for over a decade, people have quite literally grown up with him. the minute general audiences became familiarized with him as Aquaman from the show and the idea was then introduced in the comics, that was all that was really needed to chart that direction for the character. the premise has been established, so now the narrative can be explored. so as I see it, the experience talk is a hyper-rationalization: a gaslight. not saying it's a malicious point but I gotta call a spade a spade.

    like, keep it a bean, all I hear from "he's too inexperienced" or "it's too soon for him" is "I just don't want him as Aquaman because he's not my idea of who Aquaman is"; whether that's out of wanting more Arthur as Aquaman or feeling Garth as more deserving, or simply not liking Jackson enough to accept the promotion. thats all fine and valid but framing Jackson as being "not ready" essentially misrepresents the idea as being conceptually unsound for the character or on a story-level, which it isn't. so it's not really a character issue or a narrative issue, that's an audience issue.
    Completely well-said.

    And honestly, there are even more surreptitious and disingenuous layers to the "they need more experience/time" throughline.

    One of these layers is that there's a convenient memory lapse of how American mainstream comics work, specifically DC Comics and Marvel Comics. Saying a character just "needs more time" surreptitiously ignores that the mainline universes of these mainstream publishers don't have progressive, ongoing senses of time. They're essentially floating timelines, when they aren't functionally time capsules. That means that the character will never really be able to show a progression that encapsulates having gained experience and having had time pass for them. In the meantime, the character could have spent that time actually being their best selves and living their goal(s) in their final form(s), as opposed to just shuffling around "building up to it" in a specific niche (mainstream American comics) of a specific medium (Western Comic Books/Graphic Novels) that will never truly grant that progress in any sort of satisfactorily paced frame of time. Less drawn-out origin story, more story.

    Another layer that is surreptitiously ignored is that claiming a character "needs more experience and time" doesn't guarantee that time will be given to said character. It doesn't guarantee that those who express wanting these characters to gain experience will support the comics where they ostensibly would be gaining that experience. It doesn't guarantee those characters will be backed by all writers and all editorial involved, that they will have roles in different comic books that are healthy, substantial, and build on what came before with these characters. Many expect these characters to have 20-30-40+ years worth of "experience" that "build up to" some grand direction, even though nothing guarantees that broad length of time spent on build-up will actually be practically used building up said characters, let alone ever getting to the payoff of the grand direction (which wouldn't be anything but a hypothetical if we followed this path). Rather, it makes more sense to not take anything for granted and instead unapologetically push the characters in the grand direction that others assume they need to be "built up to." And keep pushing them, building their foundation, fanbase, and brand recognition in that grand direction, always unapologetically.

    This is as old-hat a throughline as the "Why don't they make new characters" one, and is just as surreptitious disingenuous. I remember it hitting Duke and especially poor Harper. People wanted them to "stay in their lane", when the right idea was to do what they did at the time and have them bust out the gate running without looking back. I've even seen this levied against the new characters from The New Age of Heroes, along with some of the newcomers after that point. Never mind the times when I see this levied against characters who aren't actually new anymore, as is the case of Jackson Hyde/Kaldur'ahm, who is as old as, if not older than, Miles Morales/Spider-Man, despite being much further behind Miles in pretty much every respect.

    You don't make an impact with these characters by pussyfooting around and lightly treading water for an ephemeral amount of time until maybe you feel like letting them slowly dip their toes in at an undisclosed future point. You make an impact by making an impact, now and forevermore. These characters need to cannonball in and make waves, again and again if that's what it takes.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 06-16-2021 at 04:38 AM.
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  12. #162
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    Really all I keep hearing here is that they shouldn't give the character development and experience before pushing him into a huge role for it to feel organic and thematically appropriate.
    Because frankly we would not be having this conversation if Jackson actually appeared on a consistent basis and wasn't portrayed as a rookie with less experience and influence than most other teen heroes around, as is now he's barely done anything as Aqualad, and I'm somehow supposed to find it believable he becomes Aquaman soon?
    It simply doesn't work, it doesn't feel natural at all, I like the character but that doesn't mean I want him thrown into a role he doesn't make sense for.

  13. #163
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    It makes more long-term, long-form sense to establish Jon as Superman and Jackson as Aquaman (pending whatever they're actually going to do with Jackson here, since we don't actually know how this new story will go down, as was already mentioned) and to give them their character development and experience as these roles and figures while they are within theses roles/are these figures. Whatever capacity Jackson will be as Aquaman, he will show his growth and development and gain his experience by being Aquaman.
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  14. #164
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    It doesn't make sense, neither of them are fit for those roles, give them actual time to make a name for themselves instead of coasting on someone else's title the first chance they get.
    Like why should I care about Jon and Jackson being Superman and Aquaman when they were barely even Superboy and Aqualad?
    Especially when we all know it's going to last and Clark and Arthur are just gonna take their titles back.
    Last edited by Metro; 06-16-2021 at 06:07 AM.

  15. #165
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    It doesn't make sense, neither of them are fit for those roles, give them actual time to make a name for themselves instead of coasting on someone else's title the first chance they get.
    Like why should I care about Jon and Jackson being Superman and Aquaman when they were barely even Superboy and Aqualad?
    Especially when we all know it's going to last and Clark and Arthur are just gonna take their titles back.
    See I hate this circular argument, that is not against you personally it's just something that bothers me. Because I am someone who believes that only becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because we don't support the books that try to further characters or attempt at a change. Maybe Jon and Jackson will be a good step forward for DC comics as we acknowledge a bold new generation of superheroes, maybe we just have to let them try and see what happens.

    Either way permanent or not I'm excited for Jackson/Kaldur to get his Mini-series
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