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  1. #166
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    If I don't think it's a good change, or don't think the decision makes sense why would I want to support the books?

  2. #167
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    I think the notion that this characters have to graduate first before getting the mantle of the main hero comes from Wally and Dick being Flash and Batman, mostly Wally. They were the original sidekicks and they succed their mentors, but before we saw them fighting for a long time.

    The thing is, they are not the rule, but the exception.
    Connor Hawke as Green Arrow, Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern, Jaime Reyes as Blue Bettle, Yolanda as Wildcat, Stargirl, Rick Tyler as Hourman, most of the "New" JSA and a bunch of others never had any experience before taking on the mantle of this heroes.

    I don't really care, let Jackson be the new Aquaman. I only wish DC could give some love to other less used characters too, but it's time for Jackson to shine.

    Also, the new Aquaman movie is about to start filming, so sonner than later Arthur will be back with his own book.

  3. #168
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    If I don't think it's a good change, or don't think the decision makes sense why would I want to support the books?
    Oh thatís perfectly fine, you do not have to support what you donít like/have no interest in. All of us are free to pick what we want to read and not read.

    I just mean I hate the idea that itís ordained or guaranteed that a characters change or growth is taken away. That someone like Jackson as Aquaman doesnít matter because eventually Arthur will just take it back. And I know it happens all the time in comics, Iíve seen it plenty of times in my years as a reader but Iíd like to think it doesnít necessarily have to be guaranteed. That Jackson can grow into Aquaman and doesnít necessarily just have to stay as Aqualad. Doesnít necessarily mean I want Arthur to go away, just if DC has taught me anything with certain characters like Wally West, Dick Grayson, Stargirl, and etc. we donít necessarily have to go back.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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  4. #169
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Completely well-said.

    And honestly, there are even more surreptitious and disingenuous layers to the "they need more experience/time" throughline.

    One of these layers is that there's a convenient memory lapse of how American mainstream comics work, specifically DC Comics and Marvel Comics. Saying a character just "needs more time" surreptitiously ignores that the mainline universes of these mainstream publishers don't have progressive, ongoing senses of time. They're essentially floating timelines, when they aren't functionally time capsules. That means that the character will never really be able to show a progression that encapsulates having gained experience and having had time pass for them. In the meantime, the character could have spent that time actually being their best selves and living their goal(s) in their final form(s), as opposed to just shuffling around "building up to it" in a specific niche (mainstream American comics) of a specific medium (Western Comic Books/Graphic Novels) that will never truly grant that progress in any sort of satisfactorily paced frame of time. Less drawn-out origin story, more story.

    Another layer that is surreptitiously ignored is that claiming a character "needs more experience and time" doesn't guarantee that time will be given to said character. It doesn't guarantee that those who express wanting these characters to gain experience will support the comics where they ostensibly would be gaining that experience. It doesn't guarantee those characters will be backed by all writers and all editorial involved, that they will have roles in different comic books that are healthy, substantial, and build on what came before with these characters. Many expect these characters to have 20-30-40+ years worth of "experience" that "build up to" some grand direction, even though nothing guarantees that broad length of time spent on build-up will actually be practically used building up said characters, let alone ever getting to the payoff of the grand direction (which wouldn't be anything but a hypothetical if we followed this path). Rather, it makes more sense to not take anything for granted and instead unapologetically push the characters in the grand direction that others assume they need to be "built up to." And keep pushing them, building their foundation, fanbase, and brand recognition in that grand direction, always unapologetically.

    This is as old-hat a throughline as the "Why don't they make new characters" one, and is just as surreptitious disingenuous. I remember it hitting Duke and especially poor Harper. People wanted them to "stay in their lane", when the right idea was to do what they did at the time and have them bust out the gate running without looking back. I've even seen this levied against the new characters from The New Age of Heroes, along with some of the newcomers after that point. Never mind the times when I see this levied against characters who aren't actually new anymore, as is the case of Jackson Hyde/Kaldur'ahm, who is as old as, if not older than, Miles Morales/Spider-Man, despite being much further behind Miles in pretty much every respect.

    You don't make an impact with these characters by pussyfooting around and lightly treading water for an ephemeral amount of time until maybe you feel like letting them slowly dip their toes in at an undisclosed future point. You make an impact by making an impact, now and forevermore. These characters need to cannonball in and make waves, again and again if that's what it takes.
    I think time in comics work when the writers actually put the effort into it, not that it's guaranteed but I don't think it's an impossible ideal either, but I guess your mileage may vary on that. At the same time I think pacing stuff out and building up to it can be more effective and impactful than immediately jumping into it, but that's just my opinion.

    Of course time isn't guaranteed to any character but I feel like there are still narrative expectations within the setting that one would be fair to expect writers to adhere to, even if they don't. I mean, I've seen my fair share of writers ignore or not address certain characters but I also don't think immediately rushing or pushing to certain plot points or narrative progressions is ideal either, but I guess it depends on what you're invested in.
    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    It makes more long-term, long-form sense to establish Jon as Superman and Jackson as Aquaman (pending whatever they're actually going to do with Jackson here, since we don't actually know how this new story will go down, as was already mentioned) and to give them their character development and experience as these roles and figures while they are within theses roles/are these figures. Whatever capacity Jackson will be as Aquaman, he will show his growth and development and gain his experience by being Aquaman.
    That doesn't mean he still doesn't have growth or time he can develop as Aqualad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I think the notion that this characters have to graduate first before getting the mantle of the main hero comes from Wally and Dick being Flash and Batman, mostly Wally. They were the original sidekicks and they succed their mentors, but before we saw them fighting for a long time.

    The thing is, they are not the rule, but the exception.
    Connor Hawke as Green Arrow, Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern, Jaime Reyes as Blue Bettle, Yolanda as Wildcat, Stargirl, Rick Tyler as Hourman, most of the "New" JSA and a bunch of others never had any experience before taking on the mantle of this heroes.

    I don't really care, let Jackson be the new Aquaman. I only wish DC could give some love to other less used characters too, but it's time for Jackson to shine.

    Also, the new Aquaman movie is about to start filming, so sonner than later Arthur will be back with his own book.
    I feel like with Jackson being Aqualad who he is ostensibly poised to be more in the vein of Wally and Dick compared to other characters. Granted, not in a guaranteed way but he's using one of the OG!sidekick identities so I feel like there's a level of expectation there.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Oh that’s perfectly fine, you do not have to support what you don’t like/have no interest in. All of us are free to pick what we want to read and not read.

    I just mean I hate the idea that it’s ordained or guaranteed that a characters change or growth is taken away. That someone like Jackson as Aquaman doesn’t matter because eventually Arthur will just take it back. And I know it happens all the time in comics, I’ve seen it plenty of times in my years as a reader but I’d like to think it doesn’t necessarily have to be guaranteed. That Jackson can grow into Aquaman and doesn’t necessarily just have to stay as Aqualad. Doesn’t necessarily mean I want Arthur to go away, just if DC has taught me anything with certain characters like Wally West, Dick Grayson, Stargirl, and etc. we don’t necessarily have to go back.
    The fact Arthur is gonna come back and take the title back is only part of the problem, because I already don't think Jackson is fit for the role, nor does he have the experience or character development that would make it believable for him to do so, the fact Arthur is gonna come back makes me want it to happen even less because I know it'll last a year or two tops, I've said it before but Jackson has barely done much as Aqualad so far, so I can't see him as Aquaman.
    It'd be different if they used the character more, since despite debuting over 10 years ago the fact they used him so little it pretty much makes him a brand new character in many respects.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    It doesn't make sense, neither of them are fit for those roles, give them actual time to make a name for themselves instead of coasting on someone else's title the first chance they get.
    Like why should I care about Jon and Jackson being Superman and Aquaman when they were barely even Superboy and Aqualad?
    Especially when we all know it's going to last and Clark and Arthur are just gonna take their titles back.
    Lets see we saw Rhodey take over for Tony Stark TWICE. He became War Machine and saw 2 minis and 3 solo runs.

    We saw Dick and John Paul take over for Bruce. Both went back to having solo runs under different names.


    As for folks needing actual time......
    John Stewart was NOT seen for 14 years after his first appearance in Green Lantern. He had no trouble taking over for Hal when he came back.

    All this crap about needing time-okay how much time are we talking?

    We did NOT wait years for Tim Drake, Bart and Conner to get solo books. Nor did with Cassandra Cain. Nor Static. Nor Jo from Far Sector.

    Tim Drake had his first solo mini series after 6 months of being introduced.

    In an industry that takes issues with certain books existing. That long development that Peter Parker was granted is NOT being granted to many because of comicsgate, writers who don't care for characters, editors, store owners, entitlement fans and toxic fandoms.

    So where is this time for Aqualad development? At a company that ignores almost everyone else who is not a BAT. What some of yall want is something that can be done at Image or Valiant. Not here without a fight.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Lets see we saw Rhodey take over for Tony Stark TWICE. He became War Machine and saw 2 minis and 3 solo runs.

    We saw Dick and John Paul take over for Bruce. Both went back to having solo runs under different names.


    As for folks needing actual time......
    John Stewart was NOT seen for 14 years after his first appearance in Green Lantern. He had no trouble taking over for Hal when he came back.

    All this crap about needing time-okay how much time are we talking?

    We did NOT wait years for Tim Drake, Bart and Conner to get solo books. Nor did with Cassandra Cain. Nor Static. Nor Jo from Far Sector.

    Tim Drake had his first solo mini series after 6 months of being introduced.

    In an industry that takes issues with certain books existing. That long development that Peter Parker was granted is NOT being granted to many because of comicsgate, writers who don't care for characters, editors, store owners, entitlement fans and toxic fandoms.

    So where is this time for Aqualad development? At a company that ignores almost everyone else who is not a BAT. What some of yall want is something that can be done at Image or Valiant. Not here without a fight.
    I fail to see what any of this has to do with what I said or is relevant to Jackson becoming Aquaman after he was barely even Aqualad.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think time in comics work when the writers actually put the effort into it, not that it's guaranteed but I don't think it's an impossible ideal either, but I guess your mileage may vary on that. At the same time I think pacing stuff out and building up to it can be more effective and impactful than immediately jumping into it, but that's just my opinion.

    Of course time isn't guaranteed to any character but I feel like there are still narrative expectations within the setting that one would be fair to expect writers to adhere to, even if they don't. I mean, I've seen my fair share of writers ignore or not address certain characters but I also don't think immediately rushing or pushing to certain plot points or narrative progressions is ideal either, but I guess it depends on what you're invested in.
    Generally when it comes to time frame and progression, non-mainstream (read: non-DC Comics/non-Marvel Comics) has it better than mainstream (DC Comcs/Marvel Comics), since they're not trapped by the expectations of their histories. They're like Manga properties in Japan and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That doesn't mean he still doesn't have growth or time he can develop as Aqualad.
    The point being made here, however, is that it doesn't mean Jackson needs to be Aqualad to gain experience and grow and develop. He can do that just fine while being Aquaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like with Jackson being Aqualad who he is ostensibly poised to be more in the vein of Wally and Dick compared to other characters. Granted, not in a guaranteed way but he's using one of the OG!sidekick identities so I feel like there's a level of expectation there.
    To be fair, I don't see why Jackson has to be beholden to the things they were, simply because Aqualad is "OG" or whatever.

    But besides that, the contexts were different. So was the real life time frame. Modern comics don't have the luxury (and I sometimes wouldn't even call it that back then, as things weren't perfect in the past, which is why a lot of vvestigial traditions that have held these characters back in editorial and in fanbase is still around haunting them) to give these characters decades of content in one form that act as some kind of resume to "justify" giving or denying any future success and bigger, grander things in another form for the these characters.
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  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    I fail to see what any of this has to do with what I said or is relevant to Jackson becoming Aquaman after he was barely even Aqualad.
    The points being that:

    (1.) Jackson having "barely been Aqualad" has no bearing on Jackson becoming and being Aquaman, and that...

    (2.) ...it is unreasonable to expect or demand that Jackson spend an ephemeral amount of time being Aqualad before he can be "allowed" to become Aquaman due to how absolutely stacked such a mindset is and would be to play out in practice because of what and how the mainstream comicbook complex is.
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  10. #175
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Generally when it comes to time frame and progression, non-mainstream (read: non-DC Comics/non-Marvel Comics) has it better than mainstream (DC Comcs/Marvel Comics), since they're not trapped by the expectations of their histories. They're like Manga properties in Japan and the like.
    Well, for me, some of my favorite stuff in comics is the stuff that was built up to and developed naturally because they took their time with it and built up to as a sense of progression that ended up becoming their history, but I guess now it's harder to have faith in the slow burn.

    It also probably depends on what you read.
    The point being made here, however, is that it doesn't mean Jackson needs to be Aqualad to gain experience and grow and develop. He can do that just fine while being Aquaman.
    True, but that also doesn't mean there isn't still value in him being Aqualad.
    To be fair, I don't see why Jackson has to be beholden to the things they were, simply because Aqualad is "OG" or whatever.
    I don't think he has to be beholden to anything, but just that using a legacy identity with history behind it has some meaning and expectations.
    But besides that, the contexts were different. So was the real life time frame. Modern comics don't have the luxury (and I sometimes wouldn't even call it that back then, as things weren't perfect in the past, which is why a lot of vvestigial traditions that have held these characters back in editorial and in fanbase is still around haunting them) to give these characters decades of content in one form that act as some kind of resume to "justify" giving or denying any future success and bigger, grander things in another form for the these characters.
    Well, in this instance I'm not sure if we can for sure say they don't have the luxury, although I guess the fact that they're not publishing an ongoing Aquaman book lends credence to that, but I guess I'm just the type who prefers getting decades of content leading into that future success than ostensibly moving quickly into it, but that's just my take.
    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    (1.) Jackson having "barely been Aqualad" has no bearing on Jackson becoming and being Aquaman, and that...
    I don't think it has no bearing whatsoever.
    (2.) ...it is unreasonable to expect or demand that Jackson spend an ephemeral amount of time being Aqualad before he can be "allowed" to become Aquaman due to how absolutely stacked such a mindset is and would be to play out in practice because of what and how the mainstream comicbook complex is.
    I'm not sure if it's unreasonable so much as just a personal opinion or taste when it comes to stories and character handling/progression.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    The points being that:

    (1.) Jackson having "barely been Aqualad" has no bearing on Jackson becoming and being Aquaman, and that...

    (2.) ...it is unreasonable to expect or demand that Jackson spend an ephemeral amount of time being Aqualad before he can be "allowed" to become Aquaman due to how absolutely stacked such a mindset is and would be to play out in practice because of what and how the mainstream comicbook complex is.
    I fail to see what's unreasonable to want the character to have some growth and development before taking on a big role.
    Because when Jackson has barley been Aqualad how am I supposed being Aquaman believable?
    He's barely done anything to warrant or deserve such a thing

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro View Post
    I fail to see what's unreasonable to want the character to have some growth and development before taking on a big role.
    Because when Jackson has barley been Aqualad how am I supposed being Aquaman believable?
    He's barely done anything to warrant or deserve such a thing
    Newflash : nobody deserves anything in life, and it includes comics characters.

    There is absolutely zero reasons forcing him to be Aqualad for a fixed amount of time before he can proclaim that he is Aquaman. He can just decide that he's not a lad, but a man, and that's it, really. In-universe, who gets to decide how he calls himself anyway, but himself ?

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Newflash : nobody deserves anything in life, and it includes comics characters.

    There is absolutely zero reasons forcing him to be Aqualad for a fixed amount of time before he can proclaim that he is Aquaman. He can just decide that he's not a lad, but a man, and that's it, really. In-universe, who gets to decide how he calls himself anyway, but himself ?
    By this point people have just ceased in actually trying to give good reasons for this.
    It's not a good change, it doesn't fit the character, the character has done nothing to warrant it and no one has actually given me a reason for it other than "just because", there's nothing wrong with giving the character some actual growth and development before pushing him into that role.

  14. #179
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    He’s going to get the growth and development AS Aquaman.

  15. #180
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post


    He’s going to get the growth and development AS Aquaman.
    Ummm... I know we are talking about Jackson/Kaldur and his growth which is important but can we take a step back to take note that Jackson is apparently fighting a horde of Parademons in that preview art.

    What is going on there, it looks like he’s fighting either on Planet Omega or Apokolips and then jumps into an ocean to go through a portal or something. That is insane and I immediately want to know more.
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