Rogue Appreciation 2021

[Havok83]

Kisses were intentional, and also sometimes the best option, seeing as how the rest of her body is covered, and she also did it to take stronger opponents off-guard.

Did she enjoy it? Maybe. But as far as I can see it's irrelevant, since her primary goal is fending off whatever super-powered maniac she happens to be fighting at the time.

If you don't like fighting super-heroes and getting blasted, punched, kicked, or kissed, stop trying to take over the world all the time.

As for as I can recall, she never kissed a female in the sae context. We've seen her fight female opponents and take her gloves off in order to knock them out. Its only the men that she would go in for a kiss

[Sylarmax]

The way Rogue would casually kiss characters to steal their powers is disturbing in hindsight. Its a form of sexual assault that Im ure the writers were not thinking about back then but thats changed with the way things like this are no longer deemed acceptable

How ridiculous is this.... You are wrong with Rogue as always. It's so hard for you to accept that you don't like Rogue? Just because she is the most powerful xwoman.
Whether it's on the omega list or not. It is a fact she is more powerful than the other xgals, and almost all confirmed omegas, in fact whether you like it or not.

And eventually something that is already known will be declared omega. It is not just for technicalities.
Cof cof hickman cof cof.



Rogue keeps kissing people on the mouth to take her skills. Or to defeat them. You can ask Graviton, and that was not long ago.



A pleasure to illustrate you again.

[AppleJ]

They were/are intentional but...again... it wasn't for personal sexual gratification and humiliation of the other person who...wasn't that much weaker than her and who more often than not was physically abusing her (if you want to place it in current real world context and sensibilities).

By that logic...they really should ban all physical altercations and especially never show women and men engaged in physical altercations with each other because...violence against women and men is a serious problem in today's societies.

Yeah I have to agree this is highly contextual. There's a difference between assaulting a bystander/stranger/someone not bothering you versus someone actively engaging you in a fight and/or harming you or others.

If kissing is more convenient or likely to succeed by taking advantage of your opponent because it throws them off guard, then it makes sense in context. And why is a kiss more offensive than a other form of touch. You can assault a person with any part of your body including hands and fingers.

And in a lot of cases kissing or touching in general is written as the last resort for Rogue to take an opponent down because absorbing personalities isn't typically pleasant for her at all. Have some writers abused this notion and over sexualized this form of attack? Absolutely. Does she use it moreso against men than women? Totally. Probably because she has been written by male writers who fetishize this.

But again, punching someone in the face, blowing them up or stabbing them is also assault and/or attempted murder.

And touching anyone at all in ANY way without permission can be considered assault, sexual or otherwise. But I don't think that's going to stop superheroes from fighting. I guess they can sue each other for pychological damages later?

By engaging in a fight are you consenting to being harmed? Can you only be mad about someone kissing you and not about them punching you in the mouth and knocking out your teeth? Why is the kiss traumatizing, but the punch or finger touch not?

[ChronoRogue]

To me, I think the reason why someone might be averse to it is because there is undertones of it being predatory. Again, it would look much worse if Rogue was a boy and kissing female enemies. though to be fair, i'm reading a lot fantasy and paranormal books right now written by female authors and wow the amount of impulsive and aggressive kisses from male love interests after the female lead says no.. this trope lmao

I think its one thing to defend yourself or someone else, it's another if you intentionally use it to gratify yourself. And it does not necessarily even need be sexual, even just working out anger or frustration through a fight can make it less about being a hero than self-gratification.

It's a murky area because as AppleJ brings up a good point in that heroes do inflict psychological and physical damage on others that is perhaps equal to or worse than kissing someone without consent. Is Wolverine stabbing someone worse or better than Rogue absorbing someone through a kiss? You could make the case he doesn't need to use his claws half the time he does to incapacitate someone.

And Rogue is far from the only X-Men to abuse their powers in such a way. I'm pretty sure a fair number of the telepaths or illusionists have inflicted similar if not worse psychological damage that probably could have been done in a different way.


exhibit a) i suppose you could argue it's not real, but that didn't matter to jean in regards to the psychic affair. also probably a skill emma picked up during the HFC but still...

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see Rogue in the MCU ever do this, it'd be the Wonder Woman 1984 debate but i think that situation is MUCH more clear cut and dry as a form of abuse... 2.0 and I don't think Disney wants that mess.

[Devaishwarya]

There are no undertones of it being predatory.
Rogue is not stalking her "victims" everywhere they go to kiss them. Her "victims" are more often than not much older than her and in some cases much stronger than her. Her "victims" are usually engaged in a physical fight with her, not innocently sitting passively at a bus stop or laundromat late at night.

[ChronoRogue]

Sorry maybe predatory isn't the right word but Havok83 is right in that they didn't exactly solicit the kiss.

And as I stated, I don't think it's a coincidence all the people she intentionally kissed were attractive men. Well, I don't know about the Thing lmao. I honestly think she was expressing her sexuality through the action because she couldn't have a normal physical relationship.

[Devaishwarya]

They were fighting. Pummeling each other. Throwing each other through buildings and such. Rogue's kisses are used as a combat tactic not a means of sexual assault/expression/gratification/interest.

She's kissed the Adversary. She's been kissed by Black Widow.

[AppleJ]

Exactly.

The other factor to consider is the power dynamic. Assault typically involves one individual holding power/dominance over another. The intention is to use/dominate for your own gratification regardless of consent. This skews frequently to men holding power over women because the difference in size/strength typically favors men and that fact has been taken advantage of for basically all of human history. Likewise men in positions of power can use influence and pressure to get away with assault. But obviously that same dynamic can apply to a man towards a weaker or subordinate man, a woman in power over a man, literally any adult over a child and really persons of any gender identity towards any other who is somehow weaker or subordinate.

Rogue typically is on equal footing or weaker than opponents she uses her absorption powers against. She doesn't usually lead with it, not since turning toward heroism, and also because it tends to suck for her. Modern writers tend not not to depict the personality absorption as gratifying for her, quite the opposite. She often uses it as a last resort in most instances when she can't otherwise take down an opponent. Often times attempts to absorb individuals more powerful than her go poorly for her in fact. But this all depends highly on the writer and era.

And Rogue is a bit of an outlier in that she's often the physically strongest character in a given group when she has her Ms Marvel or Wonderman powers. In this case, she may hold a position of power over many other characters. If she went around kissing everyone to knock them out just because she can and she got off on it, extremely problematic.

Because women are typically less powerful than men, Rogue's feels less threatening than if the scenario was the inverse even if logically they aren't different.

But I agree, a male character using kissing as an attack wouldn't be recieved nearly as well. Not well at all in fact. Probably because there is a long standing historical issue of men holding power over women and abusing that, while the opposite is far more rare.

That said, I do think it's something to be considered with far more care moving forward in comics and other content. There's a big difference to me for instance in a bound, kidnapped Rogue using a kiss to disable her captor versus Rogue choosing to take out Thor with a kiss if a touch would also have worked. That's gratuitous.

We also have to consider what is a function of the social norms of the era something was written in and who those writers were. Mostly male, right?

But honestly, how often has Rogue been written by women? In the modern era and in the hands of women writers we aren't really seeing this weaponized nonconsensual kissing much any more and I'm glad to see it go.

It makes me wonder if this is another reason KT was moving Rogue towards the possibility of having distance absorption, though from a practical standpoint that does make her a bit too overpowered as well.

[ChronoRogue]

They were fighting. Pummeling each other. Throwing each other through buildings and such. Rogue's kisses are used as a combat tactic not a means of sexual assault/expression/gratification/interest.

She's kissed the Adversary. She's been kissed by Black Widow.

It can be both a combat tactic and a means of gratification, they are not mutually exclusive. To go a bit darker, sex and violence is very much a thing, though I don't think that's at all what Rogue was doing.

Wolverine, for example, frequently uses violence to deal with emotions; anger, frustration, boredom. Same for many other characters. This is one of those situations were there are more dimensions to a characters actions IMO.

Off the top of my head Rogue's kissed Captain America, Wolverine, Juggernaut, Bishop, Northstar, Mephisto, Four Arms, Thing, and ROM the SpaceKnight with the intention to absorb. Do I think Rogue was attracted to each and every person she's kissed? No but there is a clear pattern there and it leans to toward vaguely humanoid men.

I'd also note that BW kissed her, not the other way around, though yes Rogue didn't seem to mind much.

To make it clear, I'm not saying Rogue is doing this maliciously; I wouldn't be a fan of Rogue if I thought it was in-character to knowingly assault others. However, I do think she perhaps subconsciously took advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself because her powers denied her physical contact and there were men she felt she could seduce to her advantage in battle.

Exactly.

The other factor to consider is the power dynamic. Assault typically involves one individual holding power/dominance over another. The intention is to use/dominate for your own gratification regardless of consent. This skews frequently to men holding power over women because the difference in size/strength typically favors men and that fact has been taken advantage of for basically all of human history. Likewise men in positions of power can use influence and pressure to get away with assault. But obviously that same dynamic can apply to a man towards a weaker or subordinate man, a woman in power over a man, literally any adult over a child and really persons of any gender identity towards any other who is somehow weaker or subordinate.

Rogue typically is on equal footing or weaker than opponents she uses her absorption powers against. She doesn't usually lead with it, not since turning toward heroism, and also because it tends to suck for her. Modern writers tend not not to depict the personality absorption as gratifying for her, quite the opposite. She often uses it as a last resort in most instances when she can't otherwise take down an opponent. Often times attempts to absorb individuals more powerful than her go poorly for her in fact. But this all depends highly on the writer and era.

In real life this is true, it skews heavily toward men and I don't want to brush this aside; however in comics and especially dealing with super powered individuals this matters less because the balance of power isn't as skewed. There are very powerful women in the MU and that includes Rogue.

Are the men she fights always necessarily weaker than her? Sometimes, sometimes not. Wolverine and Captain America are not her physical equals, neither is Northstar. They can be dangerous in their own ways but especially the former two she could take out without needing to resort to kissing them. To be fair, the instances with Wolverine; the first time she kissed him it was to absorb his healing factor and the second time she pinned underneath a tree and took the opportunity to do it. The Captain America kiss... is less defensible, but she was a villain at the time. Same with Northstar, but I think she wanted to knock him out without worrying about harming him physically.

And Rogue is a bit of an outlier in that she's often the physically strongest character in a given group when she has her Ms Marvel or Wonderman powers. In this case, she may hold a position of power over many other characters. If she went around kissing everyone to knock them out just because she can and she got off on it, extremely problematic.

While I agree she didn't do that, she did it often enough it became characteristic. She used kissing moves to steal powers in MvC, X-Men Next Dimension and I'm sure other mediums. So she sort of became know for it unfortunately.

Because women are typically less powerful than men, Rogue's feels less threatening than if the scenario was the inverse even if logically they aren't different.

But I agree, a male character using kissing as an attack wouldn't be recieved nearly as well. Not well at all in fact. Probably because there is a long standing historical issue of men holding power over women and abusing that, while the opposite is far more rare.

It's less common but it should be called out when it happens. To be fair, X-fans tend to do this well, I remember a lot people being uncomfortable with the start of the Emma and Scott relationship because they recognized he was in a vulnerable place and she was serving in a position of power as his therapist.

That said, I do think it's something to be considered with far more care moving forward in comics and other content. There's a big difference to me for instance in a bound, kidnapped Rogue using a kiss to disable her captor versus Rogue choosing to take out Thor with a kiss if a touch would also have worked. That's gratuitous.

We also have to consider what is a function of the social norms of the era something was written in and who those writers were. Mostly male, right?

This is true, the in-office reason why Rogue used this is because it probably appealed to cis straight males who are historically the biggest demographic in comics. Heck it was CC who wrote most of these examples and I don't really consider CC someone who is promoting sexual assault. That said, I agree with Havok83 that looking back it doesn't really look good either but hindsight is 20/20.

But honestly, how often has Rogue been written by women? In the modern era and in the hands of women writers we aren't really seeing this weaponized nonconsensual kissing much any more and I'm glad to see it go.

It makes me wonder if this is another reason KT was moving Rogue towards the possibility of having distance absorption, though from a practical standpoint that does make her a bit too overpowered as well.

Yes it's definitely become less common and for good reason. It probably shouldn't have happened as often but I do actually like that Rogue could do something like this if that makes sense?

Like I said I don't view her as a malicious sexual predator because of her behavior, I view it more as a young very repressed woman trying awkwardly to express her sexuality in a unhealthy way that she probably didn't fully understand the implications of.

I'd actually welcome a writer to comment on that behavior and for Rogue to reflect on why it was wrong for her to do, because it adds layers to her character. We know she doesn't always make the best choices but she grows from it and owns it, which is what I like about her. I don't think it's a death sentence to admit she made mistake(s) like this.

[AppleJ]

Yeah I can see what you're saying, especially if we're focusing in on Rogue's debut era under CC when she was a villain and then as a reformed villain. Considering she had Mystique as an influence for learning ethics at a pivotal time, a character well known for weaponizing sexuality and disregarding consent, it's not surprising she would have been messed up about this.

Maybe that's something she had to learn/be corrected on after joining the X-Men? Would be interesting to see it addressed, yes.

When we look at the motivation of her as a character to do this, was it to shame or dominate her opponent? To derive gratification? To reach out for human contact the only way available to her? To disable them or acquire information? Self defense? That all matters and has been portrayed differently over time and writer.

But I still see nonconsensual kisses as a more meta issue that was a function of the era too. Even thinking on Bugs Bunny/Looney Toons up through OG Animaniacs, nonconsensual kisses weren't viewed as assault in that time frame. And Rogue wasn't the only guilty comic book character by far. Social norms change.

[ChronoRogue]

Yeah I can see what you're saying, especially if we're focusing in on Rogue's debut era under CC when she was a villain and then as a reformed villain. Considering she had Mystique as an influence for learning ethics at a pivotal time, a character well known for weaponizing sexuality and disregarding consent, it's not surprising she would have been messed up about this.

Maybe that's something she had to learn/be corrected on after joining the X-Men? Would be interesting to see it addressed, yes.

When we look at the motivation of her as a character to do this, was it to shame or dominate her opponent? To derive gratification? To reach out for human contact the only way available to her? To disable them or acquire information? Self defense? That all matters and has been portrayed differently over time and writer.

rogue freely using her absorption powers without worrying about the consequences, ofc pre-carol

omg yes, I completely forget to bring up that Mystique was a huge influence during her teens. And you are right, you would totally expect Mystique's daughter to weaponize her sexuality... even if her powers were a huge barrier in expressing that in any 'safe' way. It fits so well I'm surprised CC never did a scene like it, Mystique telling Rogue to get over her feelings and use seduction to get information or knock someone out during a heist or "freedom" run. o.O

Though I won't completely blame Raven here, since Rogue did keep doing it well into the late 80s. I wonder which X-Men likely sat Rogue down and told her "no, we don't do that here". and why do i feel like it's jean


mystique being very much, the ends justify the means argument

It certainly wasn't Wolverine or Storm lol. i mean one already associates sex with violence and the other gets kidnapped by villains so often it's a meme

But I still see nonconsensual kisses as a more meta issue that was a function of the era too. Even thinking on Bugs Bunny/Looney Toons up through OG Animaniacs, nonconsensual kisses weren't viewed as assault in that time frame. And Rogue wasn't the only guilty comic book character by far. Social norms change.

Of course, the meta reason is the real reason we saw it happen again and again during that era. There are probably more examples of kisses without consent throughout comics at the time but Rogue's mostly the one that comes to mind (due to, no surprise, being my fave character). And you are right, social norms and standards have changed to view these instances with the lens that this behavior isn't ok.

[Sylarmax]

Exactly.

The other factor to consider is the power dynamic. Assault typically involves one individual holding power/dominance over another. The intention is to use/dominate for your own gratification regardless of consent. This skews frequently to men holding power over women because the difference in size/strength typically favors men and that fact has been taken advantage of for basically all of human history. Likewise men in positions of power can use influence and pressure to get away with assault. But obviously that same dynamic can apply to a man towards a weaker or subordinate man, a woman in power over a man, literally any adult over a child and really persons of any gender identity towards any other who is somehow weaker or subordinate.

Rogue typically is on equal footing or weaker than opponents she uses her absorption powers against. She doesn't usually lead with it, not since turning toward heroism, and also because it tends to suck for her. Modern writers tend not not to depict the personality absorption as gratifying for her, quite the opposite. She often uses it as a last resort in most instances when she can't otherwise take down an opponent. Often times attempts to absorb individuals more powerful than her go poorly for her in fact. But this all depends highly on the writer and era.

And Rogue is a bit of an outlier in that she's often the physically strongest character in a given group when she has her Ms Marvel or Wonderman powers. In this case, she may hold a position of power over many other characters. If she went around kissing everyone to knock them out just because she can and she got off on it, extremely problematic.

Because women are typically less powerful than men, Rogue's feels less threatening than if the scenario was the inverse even if logically they aren't different.

But I agree, a male character using kissing as an attack wouldn't be recieved nearly as well. Not well at all in fact. Probably because there is a long standing historical issue of men holding power over women and abusing that, while the opposite is far more rare.

That said, I do think it's something to be considered with far more care moving forward in comics and other content. There's a big difference to me for instance in a bound, kidnapped Rogue using a kiss to disable her captor versus Rogue choosing to take out Thor with a kiss if a touch would also have worked. That's gratuitous.

We also have to consider what is a function of the social norms of the era something was written in and who those writers were. Mostly male, right?

But honestly, how often has Rogue been written by women? In the modern era and in the hands of women writers we aren't really seeing this weaponized nonconsensual kissing much any more and I'm glad to see it go.

It makes me wonder if this is another reason KT was moving Rogue towards the possibility of having distance absorption, though from a practical standpoint that does make her a bit too overpowered as well.

Rogue if she likes to use her absorption powers.
In fact, even in the 80s it was like that.


With control of the powers she is not afraid to use them or is she not seeing xml? Rogue's absorption powers are actually 4 or 5 different powers that were mixed together at the same time. But what in control can separate them and decide what to take and what not. So the psyches were no longer a problem.



By the way, in ua she use absorption through a Kiss.
With this she defeated Graviton.


She is not an aggressor. Telepaths are much more aggressive than Rogue is. And directly if we are going to be so sensitive cancel all the comics. Since any attack is a possible assassination attempt ...

[Sylarmax]

I think they are exaggerating with the kissing issue.
Which are just attacks every time Rogue uses them.


In AofX she kissed Gambit on her mouth to double her climbing ability. And here she was in a horrible relationship with Magneto.



With kid Gladiator how clearly he was attracted to her.
She doubled his powers by giving him a kiss on the cheek


And with Graviton in the days of uncanny avengers.
Rogue defeated him by kissing him on the mouth.




The three cases in modern times. I don't think Rogue is remorseful at all or has a problem using her powers through kisses. Because I honestly don't think she has anything to regret.


The telepaths literally rape. Every time they can. And everyone is very happy with that.

[ChronoRogue]

Rogue if she likes to use her absorption powers.
In fact, even in the 80s it was like that.

With control of the powers she is not afraid to use them or is she not seeing xml? Rogue's absorption powers are actually 4 or 5 different powers that were mixed together at the same time. But what in control can separate them and decide what to take and what not. So the psyches were no longer a problem.

By the way, in ua she use absorption through a Kiss.
With this she defeated Graviton.

She is not an aggressor. Telepaths are much more aggressive than Rogue is. And directly if we are going to be so sensitive cancel all the comics. Since any attack is a possible assassination attempt ...

I mean they do cancel comics for doing offensive things. Didn't we just have an issue with an artist putting anti-Semitic imagery in a Hulk book?

Sexual assault and concerns of such nature are sensitive topics. During the 80s, the writers or editors didn't pick up on perhaps the implications of this behavior that doesn't mean we should continue doing it. Again, the intent matters. If there are no other options available and Rogue absolutely needs to kiss someone then fine but it shouldn't be something she intentionally does all the time like during the 80s.

If you want a hero going through a similar internet blowout look at Wonder Woman 1984. Writers need to very much be aware of how other people might perceive or interpret an action even if it seems innocent to them.

[Devaishwarya]

A mindfulness of What and How comic-book stories are written today is important (though as with movies, novels and music and any other form of creative art, not absolutely necessary) but...Are we seriously considering or even talking about "cancelling" books and I guess the writer Chris Claremont for stories he wrote 30-plus years ago?

It never surprises me the depths to which this "enlightened" generation will choose to sink.