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  1. #61
    Always Rakzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why not? The guy who made Oliver a cheater ignored previous history.
    The guy who made Ollie a cheater started way back in the 80s.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    The guy who made Ollie a cheater started way back in the 80s.
    I'm not sure what your point is.

    Also, the first time Oliver "cheated" on Dinah was him being raped.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is.

    Also, the first time Oliver "cheated" on Dinah was him being raped.
    And the second time happened in the exact same run.

    And the first one was later revealed to be consensual (Some might say it was a retcon buuuuut based on Ollie's character...)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    And the second time happened in the exact same run.

    And the first one was later revealed to be consensual (Some might say it was a retcon buuuuut based on Ollie's character...)
    No it wasn't. Simone flat out said it was rape. Retconning it into being consensual has all kinds of sick implications.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No it wasn't. Simone flat out said it was rape.
    Great Dinah writer. Not so much of an Ollie writer.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No it wasn't. Simone flat out said it was rape. Retconning it into being consensual has all kinds of sick implications.
    I agree so very completely. I hate retcons that make characters different than what they were when the stories were actually published.

    And originally published version is most often my favorite, as it (of course) the more likely to make sense and be consistent with who they were then and with everything else they did.

    Ollie had spent a couple decades as devoted and faithful. I do so wish they hadn't decided to make him into an ass (same goes for Bruce, and Dick with his retconned cheating, Zantanna and many of the JLA and their retconned evil actions, and so forth - these things do not make sense in the context they are retroactively set in and are mostly manifestations of making the heroes less good people in the present).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 01-29-2021 at 05:54 AM.

  7. #67
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    I will concede that rape is a problematic topic in and of itself so I guess I will stay with "Ollie cheated on Dinah with Marianne written by Grell".

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Didn't he cheat on her again with Black Lightning's niece?

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    He's indisputably a repeat cheater later, IMO. Just like (to me) Bruce is indisputably emotionally abusive to those around him later. But for me, I really hate it being retconned back into a time in his life when it has no place and is completely inconsistent with who he was then. Mind you, I don't like what was done with Bruce or Ollie. But the present is the present, and it doesn't mean the past should be corrupted with those versions. I will also have discussions about why I think it never should have been that way, why certain behaviors were out of character when first they happened (though sadly in-character now as the behaviors repeated and became part of their characterizations). Ollie doesn't have popularity or polarization of Bruce, though, so there's a lot less discussion on him. But they both, to me, are characters that are later ruined, and I hate to see the versions of them I liked twisted to match the later versions of them.

  10. #70
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    On the contrary, Winick's early run was probably one of the best due that completely nailed the dynamic of Team Arrow (Hell, that was pretty much where it was created) and introduced really important villains to the gallery.



    Yeaaaaah, better start ignoring most of Ollie's history then.
    Why not ignore what flew in the face of what came before and was destructive to the character? Grell did no favors to Dinah and essentially took a shit on O'Neil's work making those two one of DC's most iconic couples.

    I don't like how awful that run was to Dinah and writers who use it as their touchstone. It's also not most of his history since he had 40 years before that and at least half his time since not being a complete asshole to the love of his life.

    It's just some select writers who want to refer to the Grell run. Your Winicks, your Ruckas.

    I also disagree with takes on Batman where he's an intentionally abusive monster to his kids.

    Many writers feel the best way to make these characters compelling is to add major personality flaws, but some go overboard and betray the character. Cheating Ollie is that to this reader.

  11. #71
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Great Dinah writer. Not so much of an Ollie writer.
    I thought she wrote him fine in his one BoP appearance.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Why not ignore what flew in the face of what came before and was destructive to the character? Grell did no favors to Dinah and essentially took a shit on O'Neil's work making those two one of DC's most iconic couples.

    I don't like how awful that run was to Dinah and writers who use it as their touchstone. It's also not most of his history since he had 40 years before that and at least half his time since not being a complete asshole to the love of his life.

    It's just some select writers who want to refer to the Grell run. Your Winicks, your Ruckas.

    I also disagree with takes on Batman where he's an intentionally abusive monster to his kids.

    Many writers feel the best way to make these characters compelling is to add major personality flaws, but some go overboard and betray the character. Cheating Ollie is that to this reader.
    Eh, it might be because I personally don't consider them "destructive", I feel like they add depth to the character and make him stand out from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought she wrote him fine in his one BoP appearance.
    Yeah, she writes him "fine" I guess but a bit too safe for my taste.

  13. #73
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Eh, it might be because I personally don't consider them "destructive", I feel like they add depth to the character and make him stand out from others.
    I do see what you're saying, and am actually a big fan of Grell's run (shhhh!), but I had to LOL at the idea of "philanderer" being someone's defining character trait.


    *And yes, I realize you didn't use the word defining.
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  14. #74
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought she wrote him fine in his one BoP appearance.
    And the JLU episode she wrote. She's got a good handle on him.

  15. #75
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    I personally love Grell's run. It's a touchstone for other writers for good reason. That said, it's FAR from perfect. He seriously misused Dinah over pretty much his entire run.
    I was OK with the Shado thing, and the Marianne bit should have been portrayed as a simple kid crush on a bloke who was flattered but not interested (she kissed him).
    I HATE the cheater aspect that has been grafted onto Ollie. Sure, play with the Errol Flynn archetype by all means but I like my Ollie as a flirtatious horndog - but faithful to his core.
    That's why I despised Winick's first GA story 'Straight Shooter'. Cheating with Joanna straight outta the gate ticked me off.
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