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  1. #361
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Raven always stuck me as being very pale-faced, but that might just be because of the cartoon.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Wolfman considered it but he thought having a black character whose powers manifested as a 'black shadow form' and who is also named after a bird with black feathers would have been tone deaf. 'Get it? She's black!' Though even afterwards, Raven and her mom never fully came across as white, at least to me anyway, more white passing. Perez even drew her in a sari at one point.

    And yeah, not having more than one black character at a time, especially on the JL is a problem. I remember McDuffie speaking out against all the pushback he got for having more than one black character on the team and a decade later, not much has changed. Which reminds me, has Cyborg ever interacted with Steel or Mr Terrific?
    Wolfman could've changed the design to be less problematic. I understand wanting to avoid being tone-deaf, but I don't think the lack of representation is the right answer.

    What kind of pushback did McDuffie get?

  3. #363
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    So, to avoid derailing this thread I've replied to all the Raven ones in her own thread. I feel that some of the Cyborg related questions were getting lost:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    I still remember how he got replaced in his leading role by Jessica and a cat and people were more excited for them than the original cast. Is Odyssey Worth reading for content about him?


    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Mr. Terrific worked with Cyborg during Dark Nights Metal, plus Holt worked with Victor's dad so I think they have a connection
    Have they been on panel together in current continuity. Terrific and Steel feel like no brainers for Cyborg to interact with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    At the moment, my mindset is to have *no* expectations, good or bad. Just sit back, see what the new regime ends up doing, and go from there.

    When DC was kicking Nightwing around, I said that all we needed was for one of Didio's bosses to notice how successful Nightwing was in his larger media appearances, notice the comic sales, and then yell at Didio for screwing up. It took longer than it should've, but that happened and now Dick has one of DC's biggest writers on the book.

    We're in a similar position with Vic now, except the bosses already seem to know who's popular in larger media and are actively trying to capitalize on cross-market pollination and synergy. So I'm willing to give these new guys some time to get things rolling; maybe they'll be as bad as Didio was, or maybe they won't be, but either way I don't feel like I've seen enough from them yet to judge. So....no expectations.

    Oh, and I think Bendis said somewhere that Naomi season 2 will come out this year. But we're gonna have to wait for Campbell to knock out those last couple issues of Far Sector, and then he's gotta get rolling on whatever new designs Naomi S2 requires before starting the actual issues, so I don't think we'll see that until this winter.
    I doubt that Didio's departure had anything to do with how he treated Nightwing. Although his departure has meant that the title is back on track again.

    I'm in the same wait-and-see boat as you. If the old regime was in charge I wouldn't even entertain the thought of a Cyborg book but *maybe* the new era will be different. It certainly feels like a weight has been lifted from Dick and Wally's shoulders. We'll see if it's the same for Vic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    What kind of pushback did McDuffie get?
    He explains it in this video:


  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Wolfman considered it but he thought having a black character whose powers manifested as a 'black shadow form' and who is also named after a bird with black feathers would have been tone deaf. 'Get it? She's black!' Though even afterwards, Raven and her mom never fully came across as white, at least to me anyway, more white passing. Perez even drew her in a sari at one point.

    And yeah, not having more than one black character at a time, especially on the JL is a problem. I remember McDuffie speaking out against all the pushback he got for having more than one black character on the team and a decade later, not much has changed. Which reminds me, has Cyborg ever interacted with Steel or Mr Terrific?
    Cyborg indirectly interacted with Mr. Terrific in the Cyborg Rebirth series. A new character named Black Narcissus go her tech from Holt Industries. If the series had lasted longer I would have expected for Mr. Terrific to show up.

  5. #365
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    Thanks, John Venus

  6. #366
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Alright I am going to try to have some fun here, so with Cyborg going the teacher route do we think Victor will get a protege of some kind? Personally, I'm thinking Bratgirl, because we learn in issue one that she uses gadgets a lot and who better at being the fun sci-fi gadget man then Victor himself.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  7. #367
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    If you mean Babs as Oracle/Batgirl, I can see them bonding over the fact that they both use technology to overcome their respective disabilities. Maybe Cyborg can update the chip she uses to walk.

  8. #368
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    If you mean Babs as Oracle/Batgirl, I can see them bonding over the fact that they both use technology to overcome their respective disabilities. Maybe Cyborg can update the chip she uses to walk.
    While that would be cool of Victor, and actually a really nice thing to do for his friend Dick, I mean a new student who goes by Brat-Girl, she is the female member of a group called the Bat-pack because they worship Batman. In the first issue she is stated as using gadgets, and while I’m sure she wants to work with Batman I think it would be interesting if while at the school she strikes up a mentor relationship with Victor.

    She’s the girl on the left behind Red X, where she made them look like Bat-ears.




    I did consider Stitch and Gorilla Gregg, but Stitch feels more up Raven’s alley as a living doll and well...honestly while I was thinking I felt there would be some seriously wrong racial undertones of putting Victor with a gorilla, no matter how cool a smart talking gorilla may be.
    Last edited by sifighter; 04-13-2021 at 07:43 PM.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    And yeah, not having more than one black character at a time, especially on the JL is a problem. I remember McDuffie speaking out against all the pushback he got for having more than one black character on the team and a decade later, not much has changed. Which reminds me, has Cyborg ever interacted with Steel or Mr Terrific?
    Steel? It never happened in his book (I have that whole run). Pretty much Cyborg had his own ID issues while Steel had his run as Priest was really telling the story of McDuffie as Steel at the time.

    Holt- Black Narcissus works at the Detroit branch of Holt Industries. So you can have a link via her.

    I don't get why a team can't have more than one Black character on it. We have a bazillion White ones in the JL
    More than 3 and it's called a black team and the usual suspects get offended.
    Mighty Avengers say HI. And in McDuffie's JLA run-that roster was NOT his choice. Management did.

    Even if you did have more than one black person-DEVELOPMENT is still an issue. Especially with certain writers.

  10. #370
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    I assume the usual suspects are the corporate heads

  11. #371
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    1. How is he not considered a man? I'm genuinely curious, because to me he seems pretty masculine.

    2. Look I'm not about to think in a superhero comic about how people's junk work, I've never quite got how that is important to his stories. And also I genuinely think even if he is one, that clearly give himself an upgrade to remedy the situation.

    However you are right on other parts, it is a little messed up that in the New 52 run he was just consistently ripped apart. And he does show very little skin at this moment, though that is subject to change based on whenever they redesign cyborg. But I like Cyborg, he is a cool character that I grew up with, I appreciate the hi-tech hero who can make an arm cannon.
    Lol, hi-tech?? Yeah in the sense that a microwave oven is highly evolved from a toaster. It's still boxy, hideous to look at and wack. Funny coincidence how there was a chance for a long standing black hero to have a semblance of looking and being closer to human while still being powerful and having access to all his abilities, yet there's a distinct need to keep him from looking like all the other humans around him. Let's not pretend there's not a whole racial under tone to the treatment of this particular character.

  12. #372
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    What do people exactly mean by masculine, though? Isn't thst just a sexist stereotype?

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Lol, hi-tech?? Yeah in the sense that a microwave oven is highly evolved from a toaster. It's still boxy, hideous to look at and wack. Funny coincidence how there was a chance for a long standing black hero to have a semblance of looking and being closer to human while still being powerful and having access to all his abilities, yet there's a distinct need to keep him from looking like all the other humans around him. Let's not pretend there's not a whole racial under tone to the treatment of this particular character.
    Thatís exactly the point. Thereís absolutely no plausible reason to downgrade Cyborg from the Walker/Reis design. It was amazing. Suddenly Cyborg becomes an inspiring character and then they strip it all away once they saw people starting to enjoy the character. Itís as if they didnít want to be bothered with carving out a world around him.

    DCís slogan on the character: ďCyborg. The supremacists choice! Heís there...but just barely.Ē

  14. #374
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    I really don't see Cyborg that way at all. If anything it was the opposite. In New Teen Titans 80s comic book series he was kind of a street kid. He rebelled and hanged out in the streets with his best friend Ron. He got into gang fights with white gang members. Vic got cut with a razor. But he saw the error of his ways and began to apply himself in school again. He got a scholarship to college and was selected to become an olympic athlete. When Vic became Cyborg he stopped Ron, who became a leader of of a Black Militant group, from bombing the World Trade Center. This all happen in Tales of the New Teen Titans # 1. In the main series he was still rough around the edges in New Teen Titans 80s comic series. He called Raven a witch, he called Robin short pants etc... I'm sure people would be shocked if they did a faithful adaption of Tales of the New Teen Titans # 1 in the movies or tv.

    Also, as far as the Reis design I personally do not see a big difference. The only thing that's different is that his biceps is showing. Otherwise it's basically the same as his current design. In the lastest edition of Batman: Urban Legends Barbara/Batgirl basically turn into a cyborg by weaving cybernetics into her clothes-a track suit with a hoodie. If Cyborg had that design or something similar then I'm sure fans would be satisfied.

    Batgirl's new design proves that DC can make improvements to Cyborg if they really wanted to but it's apparent that they don't. After the success of Black Panther I was hopeful that DC would have put into the forefront someone similar but so far they haven't. For a minute I thought that it would be John Stewart after they casted Cyborg aside but John Stewart do not have a unique lore like Black Panther. He's just one of many other Green Lanterns. Cyborg, Vixen or Black Lightning can easily be DC's Black Panther if DC cared enough to develop them further but they don't. Right now the only thing we got is Tim Fox who is more aligned with Miles Morales instead of Black Panther.
    Last edited by abetterday; 04-14-2021 at 10:39 AM.

  15. #375
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    I don't think DC needs a Black Panther. All of these characters should be pushed.

    Nor should John Stewart being a Green Lantern limit him.

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