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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman2978 View Post
    Not to mention as a physically disabled victim who relies on prosthetics to survive. Victor represents an interesting dichotomy that could really make people enjoy him as a character, especially as an allegory for several different groups (african americans, people with disabilities adapting to the change, how technology is becoming more ingrained into our livestyles, etc) and none of them are being see to it's fullest potentials because they want to use same tired tropes which comes off as more offensive than entertaining.

    People don't forever dwell on the trauma and loss when getting a new prosthetic limb, and having to adapt to their new normal. It's sad the same can't be said for Cyborg.
    There is an interesting 8 part documentary web series titled " The Age of A.I." where leading edge technology is used to replace limbs in one episode. In one episode an individual * opted * to have his limb amputated and replaced with an artificial limb and immediately returned to rock climbing following. It takes a certain amount and type of confidence to make that choice along with a specific type of mentality. I thought i'd use a not uncommon real world example to show , at the very least, how Cyborg should be portrayed if he is to be marketed as a hero.


    I desperately want someone like David Walker, Alex Sanchez or John Ridley or even Christopher Priest take charge on Cyborg and exploring his character.
    As would i. The thought brings to mind the David Walker interview that alluded to ( or flat out stated) that DC editorial (?) wasn't interested in the direction that Walker wanted to take the character despite core fans of the character supporting the new direction. Any portrayal of Cyborg that allows him to ditch the 1/2 face mask i'd support with money. David Walker did just that and more and yet..... DC doesn't *want* to embrace the character changes that would make Cyborg a more appealing and financially profitable character. It's only bizarre if you assume they don't have a very intentional reason for taking a financial loss on the character for some other purpose they find more important.


    Agreed, or his technology adapting to the moment or situation. I prefer slim at his main form, but he bulks up or gets extra armor or protection when needed or even different weapons or technology, besides the sonic canon. Cyborg is a being who can adapt and evolve to fit any situation especially after being a hero who is a mix of New Gods technology and different tech both human and alien, creating someone extremely new that not even he is prepared for.
    All of this. It's so obvious. If someone was to create a character that they genuinely wanted to market as a superhero you wouldn't handicap their abilities and appearance .

    Unless you really didn't want them to be a leading superhero.
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  2. #17

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    How often has Vic Stone teamed up with Henry Irons, or had dinner and talked? They could have a good team-up mini-series.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I wonder what the average profit/cost ratio is?

    I don't have a ton of faith in DC's previous managers or administrators; there was far too much talk from editors/managers letting their personal opinions influence their business sense for me to have a lot of trust in what they did. When you're so blinded by your own ideas that you ignore the data in your spread sheet, and then brag about it in interviews, you lost my respect.

    But I wonder what the risk assessments are like, if DC even bothers with such things? Putting someone like Priest on Cyborg is a no-brainer and you'd think it wouldn't take much to give a character like Vic a legitimate push and see some strong returns on that within a few years. So why doesn't it happen more often? Why is it that we're always waiting for some creator to knock it out of the park before management and editorial will dare any risk? Comics are supposedly a break-even industry where a mid-range book barely makes a profit, so maybe that's why we don't see publishers play it safe. And of course you gotta take the audience into account and comic fans are well known for hating anything new. But still, it seems to me that publishers limit themselves to the point it's detrimental, and "bad at business" can't be the only reason for it.
    That's one thing I get frustrated with the PIC of DC, it seems more reactionary thinking based on favoritism and then when fans react negatively to new ideas(which fans do), you overreact as opposed to finding a proper balance and letting these franchises grow. And what happens? They become stagnant with no one being satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Customizer View Post
    There is an interesting 8 part documentary web series titled " The Age of A.I." where leading edge technology is used to replace limbs in one episode. In one episode an individual * opted * to have his limb amputated and replaced with an artificial limb and immediately returned to rock climbing following. It takes a certain amount and type of confidence to make that choice along with a specific type of mentality. I thought i'd use a not uncommon real world example to show , at the very least, how Cyborg should be portrayed if he is to be marketed as a hero. It's annoying to see writers being hobbled by this mentality.




    As would i. The thought brings to mind the David Walker interview that alluded to ( or flat out stated) that DC editorial (?) wasn't interested in the direction that Walker wanted to take the character despite core fans of the character supporting the new direction. Any portrayal of Cyborg that allows him to ditch the 1/2 face mask i'd support with money. David Walker did just that and more and yet..... DC doesn't *want* to embrace the character changes that would make Cyborg a more appealing and financially profitable character. It's only bizarre if you assume they don't have a very intentional reason for taking a financial loss on the character for some other purpose they find more important.


    All of this. It's so obvious. If someone was to create a character that they genuinely wanted to market as a superhero you wouldn't handicap their abilities and appearance .

    Unless you really didn't want them to be a leading superhero.
    That sounds like an interesting documentary, I have to check it out. What you pointed out is very true. Why market this person as a A lister hero and hold them back in the same go, makes no sense.

    David Walker brought a lot of fantastic ideas that never got seen to fruition and it's honestly a shame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    How often has Vic Stone teamed up with Henry Irons, or had dinner and talked? They could have a good team-up mini-series.
    To my knowledge, no.
    There is a lot of great characters, Victor has never had a chance of having one on one adventures outside a panel or 2. I think the best way to handle Vic is show why he deserves to have a spot at the superhero A lister table(interacting with JLers among other heroes like Static, Steel, Vixen, Black Lighting, etc , facing big threats like Darkseid or Joker by himself , really exploring his powers to his full extent, going in depth with his abilities and really exploring the different worlds he can explore from the Fourth World to Detroit to the information superhighway, etc) instead of treating him like a superhero afterthought.

    Superman: Smallville, Flashpoint and JL show elements of how he could play against Clark. Clark could remember Victor playing for a rival school team slightly aging Cyborg up to match Superman(like Smallville had Victor being 2 years older than Clark and Clark remember Victor playing for the Metropolis High School football team while Clark was playing on Smallville's team), or they could bond about stuff such as their love for football or their outsider status but love for humanity. Or has Superman's jock with a heart of gold personality could break through Cyborg's initial angry and sullen personality, or Cyborg not seeing the larger than life character everyone else sees when they see Superman.

    Flash:
    Barry, Wally and Bart all had great interaction with Cy as the Flash and before to show, they are a great duo when done right. Cyborg in Flash:Fastest Man Alive served as a voice for reason and helped Bart face his fears head on. In Justice League#13 and The Flash#187, both Wally and Barry served as the person who reminded Vic is more human than he realized. They could find an initial bond as the "team accidents" as well as having Flash's humor or optimistic personality playing off of Cyborg's more straightforward and stern at times with an attitude problem (like Ezra and Ray''s take or Smallville Kyle Gallner and Lee Thompson Young). Flash could joke around with Cyborg, visit him in Detroit or vice versa. He calls him Vic or Cy and could either play with their brotherly relationship. They could bond over nerdy things like favorite comics or video games, have tech talk, or even argue about favorite burger places or places to eat. Even have Barry do playful surprise visits on Cyborg whenever he gets the chance too, either for superhero stuff or just cause.


    Aquaman:
    like Smallville, he could always joke about Aquaman''s fish status, and Aquaman being a rebel. They could initially have a bit of tension seeing as how Aquaman have slight tension with Aquaman not trusting his Darkseid/Apokolips tech. But let Aquaman/Cyborg have a low key bromance with Arthur trying to get under Vic's skin and vice-versa without admitting they are doing so.

    Batman: Batman could respond to Cyborg being a kid who lost everything at an early age being forced to grow up. Cyborg could have respect for Batman for giving him a reason to keep on living with the league, but still have issues with Batman's brooding and mistrust for others, just using others for the sake of the mission. Batman could respect Cyborg going for him for backup on plans and tech talk. Like a more reasonable extension of the TT cartoons Robin and Cyborg relationship mixed with SV GA/Cyborg, Flashpoint and JL Batman/Cyborg where Bruce is trying to shut off his emotions when it comes to the mission, which cyborg is conflicted with doing the same and just embracing his humanity and call out Batman for his arrogance .

    Wonder Woman: She could have been like the relationship they had in JL, She takes a motherly/big sister role. She wants Cyborg to be more open and, while bonding over their respective losses. Even play with how Cyborg is fascinated yet at times can't believe about Wonder Woman's relationship with magic and mythology/the ancient world while WW is fascinated with Cyborg's tech background and connection to the modern world.

    GL: Part of the reason John worked on the JL was taking elements of Hal's personality (military status, Hal's relationships minus Hawkgirl, wtc), why couldn't that work with Vic. Maybe play into Cyborg being more intergalactic ties and accessing to Motherbox's history for more sci-fi elements but also with Hal/Vic ( Vic calling Hal on his bs when he tries to be the cocky flyboy and man in charge, Hal's head in the stars vs Vic's head on the ground) Vic willing to and John/Vic (both being the black guy on the team, initially brash and cocky exterior with affectionate personality for those they are close too but also age)

    Green Arrow: Play with Ollie's rebel with a cause personality, have Vic have a soft spot for Ollie's supposed tough guy/cranky old man in a young person's body personality, willing to help and joke against Ollie but still not take his slack. Maybe give GA/Cyborg a report (GA giving Cyborg random nicknames like Rage for the Machine and Tin Man while Cyborg can call green beans, Hunger Games, Robin Hoody, etc)

    Shazam: Cyborg and Shazam had potential in Cyborg being like Billy's best friend, not to mention the magic/technology yin/yang thing they have going

    And so on and so forth. All I am saying you can build something with the template, you just have to be willing to build and not wrapped in nostalgia, thinking a character can only work in one box (In Cyborg's case, just as a Titans).

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman2978 View Post
    That's one thing I get frustrated with the PIC of DC, it seems more reactionary thinking based on favoritism and then when fans react negatively to new ideas(which fans do), you overreact as opposed to finding a proper balance and letting these franchises grow. And what happens? They become stagnant with no one being satisfied.
    The problem pre-dates Didio by decades, but I think a good chunk of the current issue stems from his wanting everyone in a recognizable, marketable status quo. He wanted everyone in their "classic" version, with status quo's you could explain in under three sentences (because executives don't have the attention span to listen past that, I suspect). And I don't know if DC has shaken that mindset yet, since we haven't really seen enough of their post-Didio status to judge yet.

    And to a point that makes sense. You don't want to change Superman or Batman to the point where the casual observer can't recognize them. But it was a massive detriment to a lot of other IP's, including Vic and the entire NTT cast. Vic's "classic" status quo, or at least what Didio-era DC thought that was, had Vic questioning his humanity and trapped by an angst that he had already outgrown during Wolfman's day. The lack of growth and DC's refusal to accept anything but a return to 80's era NTT, has done a whole mountain's worth of damage to Cyborg, and many others. Including Wonder Woman, supposedly their third biggest IP.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I wonder what the average profit/cost ratio is?
    The profit/cost ratio is not just having a Cyborg book selling but how much of a threat he would be to your icons.

    A successful Cyborg will DEMAND to be at the table of DC's higher anarchy.

    Look over at Marvel-it's slowly getting to the point you can't see a Marvel product (especially outside of comic book stores) that does not have Carol, Black Panther, Miles, Deadpool or Ms Marvel. All that trash Marvel had to invest in for movies is not demanding places at the A list table. We haven't even touched GOTG. Thor, Dr Strange, Runaways, Cloak & Dagger, Wanda Vision, Kate Bishop, Mobius and Blade. Or Moon Girl, Riri, X-23, She Hulk or Shuri. Even Jane Foster has not gone away and she died.

    Now from a BUSINESS sense you want this. However if you not about business and profit-you don't. That is what we have seen over the past 20 years.

    If all you care about are certain characters......

    Well we have seen the results in Flash and Green Lantern.

    The sad thing with Cyborg is he had a HEAD start over so many characters that have passed him by. He's always on tv and there is some merchandise. So it's not a huge uphill battle-just need a writer and an editor that treats Cyborg like Faith at Valiant. No book starring Faith discusses her WEIGHT. She just lives and I saw that as someone who has read all her books. Dame with Quantum & Woody-being different race brothers not bought up.

  6. #21

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    I still default to the Teen Titans cartoon version as the best version of the Cyborg. He was a jock but at the same time he was smart enough to build his own technology. He turned a submarine into a rocket. He had his angsty moments but not overwhelmingly so. I want to see Cyborg take joy in building stuff.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The profit/cost ratio is not just having a Cyborg book selling but how much of a threat he would be to your icons.

    A successful Cyborg will DEMAND to be at the table of DC's higher {edit} echelon {edit}.


    Look over at Marvel-it's slowly getting to the point you can't see a Marvel product (especially outside of comic book stores) that does not have Carol, Black Panther, Miles, Deadpool or Ms Marvel. All that trash Marvel had to invest in for movies is not demanding places at the A list table. We haven't even touched GOTG. Thor, Dr Strange, Runaways, Cloak & Dagger, Wanda Vision, Kate Bishop, Mobius and Blade. Or Moon Girl, Riri, X-23, She Hulk or Shuri. Even Jane Foster has not gone away and she died.

    Now from a BUSINESS sense you want this. However if you not about business and profit-you don't. That is what we have seen over the past 20 years.

    If all you care about are certain characters......

    Well we have seen the results in Flash and Green Lantern.

    The sad thing with Cyborg is he had a HEAD start over so many characters that have passed him by. He's always on tv and there is some merchandise. So it's not a huge uphill battle-just need a writer and an editor that treats Cyborg like Faith at Valiant. No book starring Faith discusses her WEIGHT. She just lives and I saw that as someone who has read all her books. Dame with Quantum & Woody-being different race brothers not bought up.
    You've cut right to the heart of the matter without tip toeing around it,
    Don't complain. Create.

  8. #23
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    Alright so if I’ve understood from the flashbacks/flash forwards (?) in Future State Teen Titans today post Justice League Odyssey apparently it’s treating Cyborg as though yes the events of New Teen Titans and his Titans history happened, then he went on to be in the Justice League and then recently came back to hang out with his friends and help them train the new kids. I know some people aren’t happy to see him back with Titans, and it’s debatable if it’s a downgrade since now he’s the grown adult mentoring new teen heroes, but at least they consolidated his titans and Justice League history.
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  9. #24
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    I think it would only be a downgrade if his live-action appearances were more popular. If the Justice League movie was successful and Cyborg became the breakout star he was apparently planned to be initially, then naturally people would be asking why he's back with the Titans. Now years later it doesn't really matter anymore. Unless for some reason DC ever tries to push him again, I doubt he would find his way into the League again anytime soon.
    Last edited by Johnny; 01-12-2021 at 08:03 AM.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    I wonder if the Ray Fisher situation had any effect on DC/AT&T shifting Cyborg away from the Justice League and back to the Teen Titans. For years Cyborg has been show as being a League member in merchandise and mainstream promotions, but recently I’ve seen more signs of Martian Manhunter or John Stewart as the 7th member. Plus, Cyborg is definitely back with the Titans in the comics.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I wonder if the Ray Fisher situation had any effect on DC/AT&T shifting Cyborg away from the Justice League and back to the Teen Titans. For years Cyborg has been show as being a League member in merchandise and mainstream promotions, but recently I’ve seen more signs of Martian Manhunter or John Stewart as the 7th member. Plus, Cyborg is definitely back with the Titans in the comics.
    Excluding the movie where?

    Most of the New 52 version of Justice has really showcased Hal, Barry, Batman and Superman way more than Cyborg, WW and Aquaman. Especially with the toys and a few cereal boxes.

    I remember seeing Justice League birthday party set-Barry, Hal, Clark & Bruce were there.

    Justice League (not the movie version) valentines-guess who was NOT there.

    How bad was it? They were using valentines from the 80s. Jose Lopez Garcia or George Perez art. Along with Catwoman, Supergirl and Batgirl designs from that era.


    As for John and Manhunter-the main reason you see that is because of PREVIOUS materials that had them. It's a way to be CHEAP.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Alright so if I’ve understood from the flashbacks/flash forwards (?) in Future State Teen Titans today post Justice League Odyssey apparently it’s treating Cyborg as though yes the events of New Teen Titans and his Titans history happened, then he went on to be in the Justice League and then recently came back to hang out with his friends and help them train the new kids. I know some people aren’t happy to see him back with Titans, and it’s debatable if it’s a downgrade since now he’s the grown adult mentoring new teen heroes, but at least they consolidated his titans and Justice League history.
    It's not the team that's a downgrade it's the title, Titans has been unimpressive for a while and DC has no idea what to do with them. That's the only reason why I was opposed to him going back.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I wonder if the Ray Fisher situation had any effect on DC/AT&T shifting Cyborg away from the Justice League and back to the Teen Titans. For years Cyborg has been show as being a League member in merchandise and mainstream promotions, but recently I’ve seen more signs of Martian Manhunter or John Stewart as the 7th member. Plus, Cyborg is definitely back with the Titans in the comics.
    I doubt they're so directly related, as they were already starting to shuffle Cyborg away from the Justice League and more toward Titans again as soon as they put John back on the team; that's probably why he ended up on Odyssey with Starfire. I believe him and John were on the team at the same time for like maybe 4 issues, and on-page together maybe for maybe like half of those. we even saw seeds of in in Metal, with his relationship with being a plot point during that event iirc. I don't think DC cares enough about Cyborg for his adaptations in wider media to affect his treatment on the page, otherwise DC would've been leaning into his TT color scheme or had his wearing clothes like he does in Doom Patrol by now.

    sidenote: had they not been totally wasted in JL:O, I think Cyborg and Starfire was an interesting (potentially romantic) relationship that i wish they would explore. would've been cool seeing them together in Future State or something, but no we got...*sigh* Cybeast,
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 01-12-2021 at 08:31 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I wonder if the Ray Fisher situation had any effect on DC/AT&T shifting Cyborg away from the Justice League and back to the Teen Titans. For years Cyborg has been show as being a League member in merchandise and mainstream promotions, but recently I’ve seen more signs of Martian Manhunter or John Stewart as the 7th member. Plus, Cyborg is definitely back with the Titans in the comics.
    Vic started getting pushed to the sidelines back in 2018 when he got removed from the main Justice League and was made the unofficial leader of the satellite book Justice League Odyssey. His solo had also been recently cancelled due to low sales. The failure of the JL film basically caused WB execs to give up on the character as a solo movie property who was already struggling to catch the attention of hardcore fans in the comics. Hence why the next best thing for Cyborg was a guest appearance in Flashpoint. This was before HBO Max was seen as a viable route to expand the DCEU.

    Ray Fisher’s public beef with WB higher ups helped speed up the process of Cyborg returning to the Titans but really, this was an inevitably given how dead in the water the live action version was. As DC publishing synchronizes with the adaptations, unless you’re already prominently in live action or getting prepped to be, you’re not a priority in the comics. If Ray played the game right and secured himself a solo project on the small screen, maybe we’d be seeing more push for Vic, but even in that case I’m not sure it would be enough to secure him a headlining spot on the League.

    And ever since roughly 2018-2019 DC’s been making a pretty blatant attempt to elevate various black heroes outside Vic. Leadership positions for Mr. Terrific and Black Lightning, solo books for Jo Green Lantern and Bendis’ pet character, Milestone revival, etc. DC doesn’t have all their eggs in one basket and demoting Cyborg to the Titans is more than compensated by putting John on the League and giving other black characters push.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I doubt they're so directly related, as they were already starting to shuffle Cyborg away from the Justice League and more toward Titans again as soon as they put John back on the team; that's probably why he ended up on Odyssey with Starfire. I believe him and John were on the team at the same time for like maybe 4 issues, and on-page together maybe for maybe like half of those. we even saw seeds of in in Metal, with his relationship with being a plot point during that event iirc. I don't think DC cares enough about Cyborg for his adaptations in wider media to affect his treatment on the page, otherwise DC would've been leaning into his TT color scheme or had his wearing clothes like he does in Doom Patrol by now.

    sidenote: had they not been totally wasted in JL:O, I think Cyborg and Starfire was an interesting (potentially romantic) relationship that i wish they would explore. would've been cool seeing them together in Future State or something, but no we got...*sigh* Cybeast,
    Yeah I was pissed when they changed direction and trashed any potential for a Cyborg/Starfire relationship. Even if it was just a fling it would have been interesting and I’m sure it would have given casual fans something to talk about.

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