Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2021

[John Venus]

Unless they decide to do an entire story arc about Wally's parentage or something it's irrelevant. If he's black he'll be Wallace because Wallace and Wally, turns out, have the same exact place in the family when it comes to external media and nothing about their characters matter. Because whatever they write will be made up in a writer's room with little to no care for adherence to the comics. QED, Wally in the CW show. Also, if you're going to make the Wests black...why not just use the black character? It erases all complication.

When multiple posters have made the same point on their own, maybe it's time to consider the fact that they may have a point and to reconsider your stance?

[Primal Slayer]

Unless they decide to do an entire story arc about Wally's parentage or something it's irrelevant. If he's black he'll be Wallace because Wallace and Wally, turns out, have the same exact place in the family when it comes to external media and nothing about their characters matter. Because whatever they write will be made up in a writer's room with little to no care for adherence to the comics. QED, Wally in the CW show. Also, if you're going to make the Wests black...why not just use the black character? It erases all complication.

Wally has the history, the storylines, the popularity. People will think of Wally when it comes to Iris and Barry regardless. It isnt really that complicated to racebend Wally. Erasing him from future media doesnt really seem like the answer.

[Dred]

Wally has the history, the storylines, the popularity. People will think of Wally when it comes to Iris and Barry regardless. It isnt really that complicated to racebend Wally. Erasing him from future media doesnt really seem like the answer.

Good thing history, storylines, and popularity will continue to have no bearing in external media. It super matters in the comics, but none of that stuff has ever really mattered in adaptations. CW Barry has scraped clean Wally's entire run of ideas and I don't see much Wally involvement in there. Erasing is a strong word, that'd imply he was going to be in stuff but then wasn't. I just don't think they'll ever have a reason to use him again. They're set on a black West family for the forseeable future and it just works to use the black Kid Flash.

When multiple posters have made the same point on their own, maybe it's time to consider the fact that they may have a point and to reconsider your stance?

Seems mostly to be, as you'd expect in the Wally thread, people having hopeful wishes of seeing one of their favorite characters faithfully adapted. I'm just calling a spade a spade and looking at a history of character usage and lackthereof. What role does Wally play in external media to DC that wouldn't be better filled by Wallace? Absolutely nothing.

It's not the biggest loss. All the things that make Wally amazing will never make it to a bigger screen. External media and external media fans don't have the time or patience for longer, more interesting character arcs and legacy. Most of what I'm talking about is from the perspective of Kid Flash, and Kid Flash is some of Wally's worst time as a character. It's just a shame because it's necessary to have that to get to the good stuff.

[Rend20]

Wally has the history, the storylines, the popularity.

Which all amounts to essentially nothing in outside media.

All of Wally's history as The Flash is basically Barry's in outside media. He dates Linda, he gets Zoom/Savitar/Cicada as villains, and they push stuff like the 'paragon of love' that is inspired from Wally's run onto him on the show. They'll just twist whatever they want to fit Barry rather than giving it to Wally.

And given Wallace is the current Kid Flash in the comics and is actually black, it just makes far more sense to go with him because that's literally the role the character would play in outside media. It's also easier for those who get into comics from outside media adaptations because it doesn't create any confusion.

[Primal Slayer]

That's like saying that just because Tom Hollands version of Spiderman stealing Miles Morales supporting characters that Miles will continue to be paid dust. The Flash tv show stealing Wallys life doesnt necessarily mean that future iterations will. Wallace was intended to be Wally until DC got cold feet and decided to have their cake and eat it to. If they ever introduce Wall__ again...it'd likely be with Wallys history.

[Dred]

That's like saying that just because Tom Hollands version of Spiderman stealing Miles Morales supporting characters that Miles will continue to be paid dust. The Flash tv show stealing Wallys life doesnt necessarily mean that future iterations will. Wallace was intended to be Wally until DC got cold feet and decided to have their cake and eat it to. If they ever introduce Wall__ again...it'd likely be with Wallys history.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare Marvel to DC. One has significantly more leeway in execution due to past success and can take more risks. Also, in this scenario, Wallace is the Miles. Wally's more like Ben Reilly.

We've kind of been through this whole thing before but there's a possibility that some Spider-verse style Flash movie could feature Wally as we know him. But even then I wouldn't wager on it. And there's no Into The Speed Force Verse coming so it's a moot idea.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think it's reasonable to compare Marvel to DC. One has significantly more leeway in execution due to past success and can take more risks. Also, in this scenario, Wallace is the Miles. Wally's more like Ben Reilly.

We've kind of been through this whole thing before but there's a possibility that some Spider-verse style Flash movie could feature Wally as we know him. But even then I wouldn't wager on it. And there's no Into The Speed Force Verse coming so it's a moot idea.

I wouldnt even see Wallace as Miles. Miles started out his own character from the get go. Wally will likely still be the base model be he be named Wallace or Wally. The Flash tv show was knowingly lazy by stealing all of Wallys storylines, fans still wanted to see that Wally with Linda.

[Dred]

I wouldnt even see Wallace as Miles. Miles started out his own character from the get go. Wally will likely still be the base model be he be named Wallace or Wally. The Flash tv show was knowingly lazy by stealing all of Wallys storylines, fans still wanted to see that Wally with Linda.

There isn't a real direct comparison but in Spider-verse the role that Miles plays is the kind of role they would put Wallace in.

There is no significant percentage of fans that care about the CW show that were clamoring for anything Wally. That show is all die hard for Barry. Most fans barely even remember Linda being in the show.

[John Venus]

Seems mostly to be, as you'd expect in the Wally thread, people having hopeful wishes of seeing one of their favorite characters faithfully adapted. I'm just calling a spade a spade and looking at a history of character usage and lackthereof. What role does Wally play in external media to DC that wouldn't be better filled by Wallace? Absolutely nothing.

It's not the biggest loss. All the things that make Wally amazing will never make it to a bigger screen. External media and external media fans don't have the time or patience for longer, more interesting character arcs and legacy. Most of what I'm talking about is from the perspective of Kid Flash, and Kid Flash is some of Wally's worst time as a character. It's just a shame because it's necessary to have that to get to the good stuff.

That's an overtly pessimistic take on thing. I've pointed previously about how nothing always stays the same in pop culture.

Smallville had a 10 year long run, yet most Superman adaptations still do their own thing and pull very little from it. They might reference Clark and Lex being friends (which is pulled from the Silver Age) but none of their other ideas; Clark having a long friend ship with Lois, cave Jor-El, deep friendship with Oliver Queen, meteor freaks, Clark fighting most of his villains as a teenager and forming the Justice League all well before Clark put on the costume and became Superman for real have ever made it into other adaptations.

Also how many Batman shows have we gotten where they rehash the same villains? Why couldn't there be multiple adaptations of Flash villains?

Did anybody expect something like Batman: The Brave and the Bold to happen after decade and a half of a dark,broody, Frank Miller-influenced Batman? Or Captain America and Iron Man to become pop cultural icons? Or The Boys being given a tv show and becoming so popular that casual viewers reference it? Remember when Marvel replaced Iron Man with teen Tony or when they turned him into a fascist in Civil War only to back track once his movie was a hit?

Justin Hartley played Green Arrow first on Smallville but he's all but replaced by Stephen Amell in the public's eye as the Green Arrow.

Plus, I think people are getting sick of Barry's entire gimmick being that he messes up the timeline. All we need is a good adaptation starring Wally West that puts his character to the fore front and respects his mythos and we can leave Johns version of Barry in the dust.

[transformers03]

That's an overtly pessimistic take on thing. I've pointed previously about how nothing always stays the same in pop culture.

Smallville had a 10 year long run, yet most Superman adaptations still do their own thing and pull very little from it. They might reference Clark and Lex being friends (which is pulled from the Silver Age) but none of their other ideas; Clark having a long friend ship with Lois, cave Jor-El, deep friendship with Oliver Queen, meteor freaks, Clark fighting most of his villains as a teenager and forming the Justice League all well before Clark put on the costume and became Superman for real have ever made it into other adaptations.

Also how many Batman shows have we gotten where they rehash the same villains? Why couldn't there be multiple adaptations of Flash villains?

Did anybody expect something like Batman: The Brave and the Bold to happen after decade and a half of a dark,broody, Frank Miller-influenced Batman? Or Captain America and Iron Man to become pop cultural icons? Or The Boys being given a tv show and becoming so popular that casual viewers reference it? Remember when Marvel replaced Iron Man with teen Tony or when they turned him into a fascist in Civil War only to back track once his movie was a hit?

Justin Hartley played Green Arrow first on Smallville but he's all but replaced by Stephen Amell in the public's eye as the Green Arrow.

I think this whole argument is about that since Iris has been portrayed as being black in recent Flash media like the movies and TV show, which both dwarf the audiences of comics by a lot, that higher-ups of the DC company will always feel complied to keep Iris black in order to avoid any potential controversy. Since the "mainstream" only recognizes the West family as Black people, DC would just use Wallace over Wally now moving forward, because the higher-ups will not be able to differentiate the two different Wallys. To the company, the Black Wests would give DC the appearance of diversity, even though it is very surface level and shallow.

At least that's how I recognize the argument after going through the thread again, which I don't agree with, though I understand where it's coming from. I'll reiterate again that I don't think we'll get a comics accurate Wally in anything big-budget anytime soon, something I constantly repeat so that there isn't any assumption I making outlandish claims like "Wally will be the main Flash in the DCEU" or something like that. Ultimately, I'm arguing against the idea that Wally will "never" appear in anything outside of the comics. Not only do I think that is an extreme stance, and just like what John Venus said, very pessimistic, it really hinges on the assumption that DC will not change their minds. Even using the Flash TV show and movies as a baseline proof that DC has no interest in a classic rendition of Wally, it ignores the time period when those decisions were made. Those ideas were made before DC reverse many of their stances, before they had to redo the directions in their comics and films. They even went through a management overhaul last year. So whoever made those decisions back then, is most likely are either been replaced or had to rethink their entire strategy.

Even taking in the recent animated film where Iris is still black, it also ignores the fact that Wally has continued to be portrayed in external media since his return in Rebirth. He has made appearances in shows and video games, and in the games, they clearly have Wally and Wallace being two separate characters. If whoever is in charge of their mobile game division can tell the difference between Wallace and Wally then certainly outside brands can also pierce it together, even in films and TV shows. The character has had merchandise made for him, toys are still being made about him. People will say the comics aren't relevant, but I think they're very relevant. I just find it absurd to think that decisions made in the comics won't be taken into consideration in other media, as if there isn't any coordination between the leads of the many DC brands or if these "executives" don't care what goes on in the comics. Comics still make a profit, and every decision made in comics stems from trying to make as much money as they could. Even if the comics themselves make small fries, what they can eventually lead into things that can become lucrative.

I get not believing there will be a future with Wally in other media, I really do. I'm not even saying that I think we'll definitely getting anything Wally-focused anytime soon, I was just suggesting DC may be more willing to have him appear in other properties in some capacity. What I don't believe is that he will never appear again in anything else; I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to believe that DC has changed. In fact, as John Venus has pointed out, there have been multiple proofs that things have changed. I also don't believe that the decisions that DC made years ago will be the same as what they do years from now, and that comics have absolutely no influence on outside media.

[John Venus]

My take is that you could still have a mixed race or black Wally West but with all the personality and history of the ginger Wally. So even if they do go for a mixed race Wally in the future, it doesn't mean his personal history will be exactly the same as his comic book counterpart.

[Rend20]

My take is that you could still have a mixed race or black Wally West but with all the personality and history of the ginger Wally.

The dilemma with that is you're basically paving over an actual minority character who could easily fit the role to change the ethnicity of a white one.

It's like if they wanted to use the Atom to add diversity, but instead of going with Ryan Choi, they made Ray Palmer be from Hong Kong instead. It's just so much easier to use Ryan in that situation. They have absolutely no reason to use Wally when Wallace fills the need and/or desire that the outside media will probably have.

[Waterfall]

I don't get being this level of upset about racial or sexual orientation change. It raises red flags to me. As long as the essential aspects of Wally are preserved, I don't give a ****. The reason why I disliked Wallace was because he was not Wally in any way, and his personality was awful at that. If Wally gets portrayed black/mixed, this doesn't mean it won't be Wally, let's make that clear first.

On the other hand, Wallace failed in every piece of media. They don't retire the character now only because of the fear of backlash. He's relegated to irrelevancy in TT. It's obvious "people that matter" see this situation. Very possible if they go in "multiverse route" about Wally, in which they both keep Iris black and Wally white.

[Rend20]

I don't get being this level of upset about racial or sexual orientation change. It raises red flags to me.

Has anyone really been upset here?

I mean, thinking/feeling outside media will go with Wallace if they want a black Kid Flash because he literally fills that role in the comics doesn't seem to be inherently controversial? Despite your feelings about Wallace, he is still a perfectly viable character who can successfully work in outside media.

[John Venus]

Nothing says that both Wally and Wallace can't co-exist. They are both so different that their only similarity are their names. Ideally; Wally as main Flash (who is either mixed or black), Wallace as Kid Flash and Bart Allen as Impulse.

In fact, you could even justify benching Barry for a minute again in favor of a truly diverse Flash franchise.