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  1. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    It's a moot point, given that we now apparently know that the actions in question weren't of his own volition.
    Is that actually confirmed? Does anyone recall the exact issue this is stated? Because from what I can tell that isn't quite clear yet. Does anyone know for sure?

    That said... I would argue it doesn't even matter if the explosion was of Wally's own volition; the reason being it isn't even clear that Wally knew anybody was next to him when he lost control of his powers. When he does his narration of the accident in HiC #8, he acknowledges that people were walking up to him in the field... but not that he knew it at the time. That makes it an accident either way and therefore it needs no alteration. I may be miscalculating but I sense people just don't like the aesthetics of Wally's actions having killed people, regardless of circumstance or if it was his fault or not.
    Last edited by Standish; 06-17-2021 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #1007
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    First, I wasn't talking about the detonation itself; I was talking about his actions after it.

    Second, the problem with the detonation itself isn't that it killed people; it's that it was blamed on Wally's mental instability. In particular, it turns every speedster into a potential nuke of they experience emotional trauma, which is itself a major problem as it means that speedsters' emotional well-being becomes of paramount importance of you don't want to die; and it doesn't mesh with what's come before, as there have been plenty of other speedsters who have gone through a whole lot more trauma than Wally was going through and nothing remotely similar ever happened.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-17-2021 at 01:31 PM.
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  3. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    But Wally's image and self-worth as a hero had nothing to do with his actions in Heroes in Crisis. That's simply something you're projecting in there that the story itself contradicts.

    Wally's whole plan behind the cover-up wasn't about getting away with things. He needed five days to send the tapes to Lois. Once that was done, he offered up his confession to Lois. That was always the plan. So his image as a hero was never an issue because what he did being made public was always his plan.
    You're missing the point a little. The continuity of Wally's plan was such that he wasn't going to be around for the part when the tapes released and his image as the Flash ruined. His plan was to kill himself 5 days in the future, return back with his body, then wait 5 days for his past self to come and kill him. He would be in a loop that always closes at the 5 day mark -- because that is when the tapes would release and his life as Flash would be over. That is when his image as a hero would be shattered. He literally says, "It gave me 5 days...5 days before I come and kill myself." Wally's plan was to never be around to experience anything past that. The shame and humiliation was unbearable to him; and he knew he couldn't live in a world where he wasn't a hero anymore.

    "His image as a hero was never an issue." Yes it is; that's the whole point of killing himself at the 5 day mark.

    Which is why I literally wrote: "To someone like Wally, NOT being the Flash would be almost worse than death." Evidently, Wally thought it WAS worse.
    Last edited by Standish; 06-17-2021 at 02:15 PM.

  4. #1009
    Incredible Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    To the extent that you can, yes. It's been pointed out that it has had some other laying consequences, such as Roy's death and what happened to Poison Ivy; so it can't be completely dismissed. But as the importance of such things fade into the past, the last traces of HiC can fade away with them.
    I guess what I'm saying is this: people figured that the series a. was going to make a larger statement about something and b. would have larger ramifications for the DCU. Point a. never happened; as for b., it looks as if it's going to be retconned and undone. If that happens, I think we can finally stop speculating about whatever the series was supposed to go and finally let it go and never think about it again. It deserves to go the way of Rise of Arsenal and Amazons Attack. Let it go.

  5. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standish View Post
    "His image as a hero was never an issue." Yes it is; that's the whole point of killing himself at the 5 day mark.
    The final issue gives three reasons and none of them are about his image.

    There's his guilt about what he has done, his feeling of loneliness, and making the "sacrifice" because that's what heroes do. At what point does his inability to be the Flash get brought up in his reasoning? Admittedly, it's been some time since I read it. Though the idea Wally cared more about his own life than the lives he took is hard for me to get behind.
    Last edited by Rend20; 06-17-2021 at 02:26 PM.

  6. #1011
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't see much of worth in HiC that couldn't use much more retconning at this point.

  7. #1012
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    I'm curious, what do you think of the comic Flash Forward (2019)? I haven't read this comic, what are your opinions?


  8. #1013
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    It was a somewhat ham-handed attempt to fix what heroes in crisis did. It's main positive was that it ended with Linda and the kids reinstated. Wally, meanwhile, was being set up for his role in death metal.
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  9. #1014
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    What makes Flash Forward complicated is the controversy of the writer. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just google Scott Lobdell controversy, and wont further elaborate. It really depends on how much you can separate the art from the artist, and if it's worth supporting the character.

    On that note, Mr. Lobdell did actually come to these forums to further elaborate story beats in Flash Forward. He even reassured fans that Wally's future in the DC universe was optimistic. Brett Booth, the artist, even said on Twitter that he was the one that fought for the return of Wally's kids. It doesn't really fix the controversy, but there's that if that helps at all.

    On the quality of the mini itself, it was certainly better than I thought it would've been. It feels very much like a comic from the 90s, which is probably because Lobdell's writing style feels very much trapped in that era. However, Wally's characterization felt very much on point, and it served as a counterpoint to Heroes In Crisis's grim tone. It's overall a lighthearted mini-series that help set up Wally's future role in the DC Universe. It isn't great, nonetheless still fun.

  10. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standish View Post
    I don't agree. It's protecting one's self-image, but at different degrees. Furthermore, there other reasons which were expressly stated shortly ago that explain why his actions in HiC were in character. Namely: how vitally important it was to Wally's sense of self-worth to be a hero or at least be seen as one.

    Even before losing almost everything else, being the Flash was everything to Wally. Unlike many of the reluctant heroes (Batman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing) or the heroes who simply stumbled into their powers in adulthood (Kyle, Plastic Man, Jessica Cruz) Wally THRIVED on being the Flash. Getting his powers was the best thing that ever happened to him. And he lived for the fanfare: the Flash Museum, the legacy, the recognition. He's been written that way for 25 years. To someone like Wally, NOT being the Flash would be almost worse than death. I can't imagine anyone against that characterization of him. When you put it all together, and realize what was on the line for him during HiC, it's easy to imagine him reaching that level of desperation. Especially almost everything else (his family, most of his friends) was already lost.
    Wally has outright been willing to give up on being The Flash/Kid Flash for his friends and family or even his own health multiple times before. You are off on your take here. Being The Flash is incredibly important to him but it's not beyond him to set it aside. That you can spiral that into criminal psychopathy is an absurd leap. Saying Wally murdered and mutilated a bunch of corpses to protect his own personal image when his (incredibly stupid) goal was to turn himself in regardless is also nonsensical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Standish View Post
    You're missing the point a little. The continuity of Wally's plan was such that he wasn't going to be around for the part when the tapes released and his image as the Flash ruined. His plan was to kill himself 5 days in the future, return back with his body, then wait 5 days for his past self to come and kill him. He would be in a loop that always closes at the 5 day mark -- because that is when the tapes would release and his life as Flash would be over. That is when his image as a hero would be shattered. He literally says, "It gave me 5 days...5 days before I come and kill myself." Wally's plan was to never be around to experience anything past that. The shame and humiliation was unbearable to him; and he knew he couldn't live in a world where he wasn't a hero anymore.

    "His image as a hero was never an issue." Yes it is; that's the whole point of killing himself at the 5 day mark.

    Which is why I literally wrote: "To someone like Wally, NOT being the Flash would be almost worse than death." Evidently, Wally thought it WAS worse.
    This is backpedaling. You are somehow conflating suicide and his image as The Flash as somehow self solving. He was going to kill himself out of depression and guilt.

    I hate HiC and even I'm giving it more credit than you. I don't know why your point is that Wally's such an absolutely shitty person that killing and mutilating corpses and framing innocent people for murder is totally in line with his personality. It isn't. It is preposterous that you're saying that it is.

    And, again, not being The Flash isn't something Wally would kill himself over. You couldn't possibly be more wrong if you tried.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-17-2021 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    This is backpedaling. You are somehow conflating suicide and his image as The Flash as somehow self solving. He was going to kill himself out of depression and guilt.
    But understand something: Wally killed his future self and returned with his body almost immediately after the accident in the field. The tampering of the crime scene was fast as well; he had already finished framing Booster and Harley early on. He then sat in the field and waited for his future self to arrive for the kill he had scheduled for 5 days after the accident.Wally set the loop to close at 5 days by killing himself on the 5th day because (1) it gave Superman time to address the world about Sanctuary and (2) that was how long it would have taken for Lois to have received his confession tape. At that point, everything for him would have shattered. The depression and guilt greatly contributed to his decision to repeat this killing loop, but he timed it so the loop would end immediately before Lois would received and published the confession tape. He could have killed himself on day 3, day 4, day 6. But instead, he timed the loop for day 5 when Lois received the tape which would signify the final undoing of the Flash: no longer a hero to the world. That was a world Wally knew he couldn't bear. It would be the last straw to break his back.

    I hate HiC and even I'm giving it more credit than you. I don't know why your point is that Wally's such an absolutely shitty person that killing and mutilating corpses and framing innocent people for murder is totally in line with his personality. It isn't. It is preposterous that you're saying that it is.

    And, again, not being The Flash isn't something Wally would kill himself over. You couldn't possibly be more wrong if you tried.
    Where are you getting that I said Wally was a shitty person? I'm the one who is saying that I am understanding and even forgiving of Wally's actions in HiC, and that I interpret them to be very in-character with aspects of his personality and values based on the last 25 years. I wonder if you are appreciating the weight of how much he lost and how desperate he felt. You hate HiC but you think I don't give it enough credit? I'm one of the people who really likes HiC and doesn't want DC to retcon it, lol. Since Flash Foward, Wally has found redemption and I don't see a need to retcon anything.
    Last edited by Standish; 06-17-2021 at 11:43 PM.

  12. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standish View Post
    But understand something: Wally killed his future self and returned with his body almost immediately after the accident in the field. The tampering of the crime scene was fast as well; he had already finished framing Booster and Harley early on. He then sat in the field and waited for his future self to arrive for the kill he had scheduled for 5 days after the accident.,Wally set the loop to close at 5 days by killing himself on the 5th day because (1) it gave Superman time to address the world about Sanctuary and (2) that was how long it would have taken for Lois to have received his confession tape. At that point, everything for him would have shattered. The depression and guilt greatly contributed to his decision to repeat this killing loop, but he timed it so the loop would end immediately before Lois would receive and the publish confession tape. He could have killed himself on day 3, day 4, day 6. But instead, he timed the loop for day 5 when Lois received the tape which would signify the final undoing of the Flash: no longer a hero to the world. That was a world Wally knew he couldn't bear. It would be the last straw to break his back.



    Where are you getting that I said Wally was a shitty person? I'm the one who is saying that I am understanding and even forgiving of Wally's actions in HiC, and that I interpret them to be very in-character with aspects of his personality and values based on the last 25 years. I wonder if you are appreciating the weight of how much he lost and how desperate he felt. You hate HiC but you think I don't give it enough credit? I'm one of the people who really likes HiC and doesn't want DC to retcon it, lol. Since Flash Foward, Wally has found redemption and I don't see a need to retcon anything.
    Wally operates at super speed. One second is months of planning for him if he wants it to be. How fast something happens is irrelevant for a speedster.

    I don't know what point you're trying to make. At no point in the story does his status as The Flash matter. Because, and here's a clue in for you, Wally isn't integral to the story. The killer could've been anyone, Didio just chose Wally and King crammed him in. These plot points you're talking about are not framed around Wally's self image as The Flash.

    You said the reason Wally mutilated the corpses of his friends and colleagues and framed two innocent people was because of his incredibly inflated sense of self image as being The Flash. When at no point is it brought up as any part of his inner monologue and it does not line up with any of his history as a character. It's not in character for Wally to commit psychopathic crimes to...defend his soon to be crumbling identity as The Flash? What? You don't make any sense. You completely sidestepped the fact that multiple times in Wally's history he's been outright willing to give up The Flash title, either due to his health (Wolfman), Depression (Black Flash), ceding to someone he cares about (Barry) or family (this recent arc and the aftermath of Flash Rebirth 1.0) or even guilt (post Blitz). Wally's identity as The Flash is not something he hurts people over. What you are saying is in character for him makes no sense and you seem to lack any grasp of his character or history.

    It's like you made up something about they character to justify why his actions in HiC were sensible. They weren't. Even Tom King has outright said, post Didio firing, that putting Wally in that position made no sense for the story or the character.

    I seriously am baffled how you are conflating Wally being abrasive to Kyle for all of 5 issues with psychopathic supervillainy. Heck, even before Didio was fired and they were defending HiC King and Gerads' explanation for the events was that Wally's actions made no sense and did not fit who he was as a character because he broke and went insane and characters don't act in character when they break.

    And yes, I understand the weight of what Wally lost. Because the exact same thing already happened to him before in Geoff Johns' run. We know how Wally acts in that situation -- he even made a brash, impulsive mistake when it happened, too, but...did so after being willing to give up being The Flash anymore so no one would hurt Linda again. Yep. Totally Wally's giant sense of identity as The Flash that lead to these actions, that's definitely the central character concept touched on there.



    Anyhow, the Wally West Appreciation thread is probably not the best place to support the storytelling of the comic that was in part used to explicitly try to ruin Wally by a man who hated Wally. HiC is persona non grata here and frankly I don't feel like ranting about it anymore with you. We're hopefully on the cusp of finally moving past that absolute garbage pile of a comic.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-17-2021 at 08:47 PM.

  13. #1018
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Even Tom King regrets making Wally the murderer in HiC and said he would changed that if he had the chance.

    can you give a timeframe for when he says? 2 hours is such a long time to listen all of it.

  14. #1019
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    can you give a timeframe for when he says? 2 hours is such a long time to listen all of it.
    I already linked the video with the timeframe, you just have to press play in the player.

    But if it doesn't work, it's in the 1 hour and 12 minute mark.

  15. #1020
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas 35 View Post
    I'm curious, what do you think of the comic Flash Forward (2019)? I haven't read this comic, what are your opinions?

    Meh…..I love Wally and just lost interest in the series and didn’t finish it. It may be a different experience reading it in a collected format but month to month it didn’t keep my interest.
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    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Immortal Hulk, & The Flash.

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