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  1. #46
    Always Rakzo
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    Nah, I'm pretty sure it was in many more storyarcs than that.

    Hell, I clearly remember Waid referencing that same exact line during his second misguiden run.

    Also, "Wally's run" is not "Waid's run". There's much more than that.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Nah, I'm pretty sure it was in many more storyarcs than that.

    Hell, I clearly remember Waid referencing that same exact line during his second misguiden run.
    I would like to know what you are talking about rather than just saying that Waid had a run where they happened. The most important parts of his second run, Chain Lightning and Dark Flash, have explicit examples to the contrary. Chain Lightning firmly establishes that for all of Wally's accomplishments and powers (including, yes, surpassing Barry which is pretty important to his character growth rather than whatever mocking you're giving it -- Johns mentions this as much or more than Waid in his run after all), he is not the same as Barry and can't just replace Barry in Barry's greatest moment. Dark Flash is about how Wally's obsession with the Speed Force could've taken a dark turn in a world where Linda wasn't there to ground him. They are not stories about Wally being the bestest Flash Evarz because in Dark Flash he straight up loses to Walter and Chain Lightning he can't beat the possessed Flash family OR replace Barry. He has to fix things other ways.

    Again, weird to have to defend Wally's seminal Flash run in the Wally Appreciation thread.

    Counting his involvement in WML's run as lead editor, Waid accounts for well over half or Wally's comics and the vast, vast majority of what people would consider the good ones. Unless you only see value in the Johns' and Morrison's run but Morrison leans more heavily into the Speed Force stuff than ANYONE. Heck a lot of the "dumb" things people talk about the Speed Force originated in really fun and good Morrison stories.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-04-2021 at 05:32 PM.

  3. #48
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    Chain Lightning has freaking Cobalt Blue as Barry's identical twin to create yet another not so subtle "Wally will defeat Barry".

    I don't know what more to say. Also, "seminal"? Nah, maybe most well-known. Sadly not a lot of people are familiar with Messner-Loebs' work.

  4. #49
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    Cobalt Blue is never used in that way. What are you talking about? Lame origin, sure, but Cobalt Blue possesses everyone BUT Barry. If the goal was to have Wally beat a Barry pastiche I imagine Blue would've possessed Barry and forced Wally to beat him. Instead Waid uses it to establish a major plot point where Wally can't just take surpass Barry in everything, but instead figure out his own way to save the day.

    But whatever. You hate Waid, continue bashing Wally comics in the Wally thread. Might as well.

    Oh, by the by, it is certainly seminal. Unless you just don't know what the word means. It's not even arguable. It is the modern run that has most affected all future runs, making it the seminal run. WML's comics have a lot of good ones in there but they are not influential to future works and...thus, not seminal.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-04-2021 at 05:38 PM.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I guess the constant repetition of "WALLY IS THE GREATEST FLASH EVARZ AND WILL SURPASS BARRY!" fooled me.
    Well, Wally IS the best Flash ever and did surpass Barry :P What's your point?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    Well, Wally IS the best Flash ever and did surpass Barry :P What's your point?
    Nothing, is just the repetition of such theme during Waid's run is my problem. I believe Messner-Loebs handled that idea much better.

    But whatever. You hate Waid, continue bashing Wally comics in the Wally thread. Might as well.
    I don't hate Waid's run. There are things I like about it, despite of the overuse of the Speed Force, I still believe was a cool concept but there were really, really bad stuff about it as well.

    Also, don't try to twist this into "If you bash Waid you bash Wally in his appreciation thread!" to try to make this against the rules please.

    Finally, I could argue that Messner-Loebs' created what is considered the main personality for Wally and thus, also making it seminal.

  7. #52
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    WML's handled it by not handling it at all and keeping Wally as inferior to Barry, sure. He first touched on Wally's insecurities towards his clear inferiority to Barry as a superhero. But someone's got to write the heroic triumph and surpassing and WML certainly never went there.

  8. #53
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    One of my favorite Wally moments from The Flash #50:

    RCO037.jpg

    Wally becoming just as fast Barry, gaining the confidence he has been building all this time and just with a little bit of social commentary. Perfectly summarizes Messner-Loebs' run.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I guess the constant repetition of "WALLY IS THE GREATEST FLASH EVARZ AND WILL SURPASS BARRY!" fooled me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Nothing, is just the repetition of such theme during Waid's run is my problem. I believe Messner-Loebs handled that idea much better.



    I don't hate Waid's run. There are things I like about it, despite of the overuse of the Speed Force, I still believe was a cool concept but there were really, really bad stuff about it as well.

    Also, don't try to twist this into "If you bash Waid you bash Wally in his appreciation thread!" to try to make this against the rules please.
    I think both runs are great for different reasons. Messner Loebs definitely feels more down to earth but I also feel like Waid's run gives you that payoff to all of Wally's struggles and self doubts.

    Waid's run always gave me the same thrill as watching something like the Rocky movies or a shonen anime. Yeah, it can get a little rediculous and corny at times but there was something special about watching Wally overcome greater and greater odds. As he matured as a character his physical feats mimicked it. It all felt earned and engaging to me. I can see why it might not be for everyone but I think it was the next logical place to take him after Messner Loebs run.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    I think both runs are great for different reasons. Messner Loebs definitely feels more down to earth but I also feel like Waid's run gives you that payoff to all of Wally's struggles and self doubts.

    Waid's run always gave me the same thrill as watching something like the Rocky movies or a shonen anime. Yeah, it can get a little rediculous and corny at times but there was something special about watching Wally overcome greater and greater odds. As he matured as a character his physical feats mimicked it. It all felt earned and engaging to me. I can see why it might not be for everyone but I think it was the next logical place to take him after Messner Loebs run.
    Yeah, I can accept that. I also like Waid's run for different reasons but is just that there were some things about it that really irked me.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    One of my favorite Wally moments from The Flash #50:

    RCO037.jpg

    Wally becoming just as fast Barry, gaining the confidence he has been building all this time and just with a little bit of social commentary. Perfectly summarizes Messner-Loebs' run.
    This one is always kind of weird to me because I never bought Vandal Savage as a particularly good Flash Villain and...the pistol isn't anything new or matching Barry in any way. Wally was still very much in Barry's shadow after that.

    Good character work, lacking set dressing, I suppose.

  12. #57
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    Wally believed it at that point which is all that matters.

  13. #58
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    Followed pretty immediately by him thinking he could never beat Superman in a race. Didn't last long.

    (Though he did win that race!)

  14. #59
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    Barry never won against Superman before either by the way. Rules were re-written after the Speed Force.

  15. #60
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    I mean Wally won without the Speed Force, regardless. The point is that the younger brother/successor insecurity faded pretty immediately after that scene with Vandal. Maybe that's the weakness of not re-iterating it.

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