Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

If they had made HiC basically just a mini about the characters of the DCU checking in and talking about all the traumatic stuff they went through that would’ve been pretty interesting to me. I enjoyed the little therapy sessions King did with the characters. It was choosing to do a murder mystery that sunk the concept and then Didio wanting to screw over Wally that really killed the concept.

I think some of the therapy sessions were a little nonsensical and didn't really get the characters, but Superheroes addressing their trauma and getting therapy is a valid story, it just shouldn't have become a murder mystery and completely mess up the premise.

[PennyDreadful]

I think some of the therapy sessions were a little nonsensical and didn't really get the characters, but Superheroes addressing their trauma and getting therapy is a valid story, it just shouldn't have become a murder mystery and completely mess up the premise.

It's a valid story, but as it turns out it wasn't the point of this story and it was basically marketed as a murder mystery.

[Hol]

It's a valid story, but as it turns out it wasn't the point of this story and it was basically marketed as a murder mystery.

In addition to that so much of it doesn't make sense. Like, this is the first time we hear about the speed force being something each speedster has to hold back from exploding and killing people? Wally has the deepest connection to the speed force out of any speedster. Why hasn't he mentioned that before? And if he can't hold it back how can any other speedster? And all the other nonsense with cloning himself five days in the future. Ugh. Only good part of the book was the art. That is it.

[godisawesome]

I think some of the therapy sessions were a little nonsensical and didn't really get the characters, but Superheroes addressing their trauma and getting therapy is a valid story, it just shouldn't have become a murder mystery and completely mess up the premise.

Yeah, some of the therapy sessions were very “pop-culture amateur Psychologist,” which combined with a “therapy” that is actually harmful or arguably wasted time and energy, and a “people with issues are just waiting to explode” murder story... arguably would create more of a stigma against therapy rather than supporting it.

Comics are weird enough that an actual therapist for superheroes could be a recurring character, but I’d really want to consult actual therapists about what scenarios and issues to expect, rather than trying to do any meta-commentary on the out-of-universe perspective of them.

[HandofPrometheus]

Variant cover for july

The flash suit looks so much better without the excessive lines and lightning effects.

[Dred]

Wally, Wallace or Iris could simply be adopted as well. There's a lot of avenues to go to have both Wally and Wallace as they are now while changing Iris.

Ah yes, the Crappy Fantastic Four method.

[Dred]

Curious: did TK get a list of characters to use or was he told to use certain characters for certain roles in Identity Crisis 2: Electric Boogaloo? Did he have final say on which characters did what? I'm confused as to how much is TK and how much is editorial?

The sad part is that mental health vis a vis superheroes is an interesting concept. A writer who is interested in exploring the concept could possibly make it work. But I'm reminded of what Linkara said about Sue Dibny's rape in the first Identity Crisis. It was just thrown in there. As with rape, mental health/trauma is not something that you can just throw in there. Especially not a badly constructed murder mystery.

The account that was given awhile back, right after HiC ended, was that Tom had written the basic premise for the story. Sanctuary is a long standing establishment, one of the patients (a superhero) snaps and kills most of the patients at Sanctuary, implicating two of the only survivors. That story framework was given to Didio to pick the three main characters: The Killer and the two framed people who would act as the heroes. Didio chose Wally to be the killer, and Harley and Booster to be the framed heroes.

This is why we got super, duper early reports -- long before the comic was even shipped out -- that Wally was the killer and he was running around gunning people down. We all thought this was stupid as hell as why would Wally, a guy who can flick a marble at the speed of light, go around shooting people with guns? But Rich was right in the long run that Wally was the killer.

My assumption, and at this point this is just my own speculation with a big of logical deduction, is that Rich's info was basically corroborating two things together: Wally was the Killer and the original HiC story had the killer shooting people. He might've gotten two separate leaks and stitched them together, who knows. It was almost certainly later rewritten into the less murdery version we got. By his account Tom King says he loves Wally West and the story we got might've been less character damning than the one we would've gotten if Wally just got crammed into the position without any rewrites. There's some pretty big plotholes in the story that get created by stupidity at the end that make it seem almost certainly like a late rewrite when people reacted super bad to the leak of Wally being an insane murderer.

TK also says that once Didio gave him the characters he possibly could've asked for different ones but didn't and chose to go with what Didio gave him. It is no surprise to anyone in the comic reading world that Didio saw a story he could use to absolutely fucking annihilate Wally as a character and chose to do it. A legit act of absurd malice towards a character based on his danged preference.

[transformers03]

Listing a bunch of recent things and shows a trend. I mean they have a choice in the animated features and they're choosing to follow the live action versions. Black Iris means any future external media "wally" appearances will likely be based around Wallace who suits it.

Which is a shame because if they stuck with Wally they wouldn't have to do any race bending shenanigans. His wife and kids actually ARE minorities, go figure. Walk back to Barry only to have to spin everything around and futz with it because Barry's tenure is outdated.

The other day, we were on the topic of what type of race Wally should be portrayed as in outside media and that Wallace's existence kind of complicates any future adaptations of the character. It's a touchy subject, one I have been wrestling with since Wally was initially re-introduced as a mix-race character back in the New 52. It's a complicated issue, and I think it is up to an individual to decide where they fall into.

I do have an appreciation for Marvel and DC's attempts at diversifying, with both companies acting as if they should take societal responsibility to present the world more accurately than has been. In a business sense, minority-led properties have proven to be increasingly more lucrative. This is not to say those minority-led properties were never lucrative, but now old-fart executives are discovering them to be just as profitable as anything that has starred a straight-white male superhero. Minorities are now an untapped market that executives were ignoring for decades, and are now trying to catch up. This has led to the creation of many minority starring superheroes, like Ms. Marvel, Mile Morales, Ironheart, the Next Batman, Sam Wilson as Captain America, and, of course, the reimagining of classic heroes as minorities. This is what led to Alan Scott becoming a Gay man in Earth 2 (and now in the main DC Universe), and, of course, the race-bending of several characters, including Wally West. It was also actually highly speculated that Wally was turned black specifically because the CW Flash show was going to cast black actors to portray Iris and Joe West.

I'm not presenting this as a bad thing; we should all want more minority representation in our media. Though not all the comics were home runs, they didn't really need to be since the comics acted more like inspirations for potential films and TV shows. The recent success of Falcon and The Winter Soldier, with Falcon officially taking up the title of Captain America, has further proven how lucrative a black-led franchise can be. So with that potential future success on their mindset, it only made sense to simply make Wally a person of color at that time. I also have the suspicion that either some writers and/or maybe some executives find it unacceptable to have a straight, white man hero pass on their title to another straight, white man. With a growing minority in the US and the shrinking majority of Caucasians, I get the impression that whoever was in charge with these decisions felt that it didn't really make sense to have two straight white men be the Flash in the modern-day USA, at least not in a statistic sense given how many blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or other underrepresented groups there are in the country.

On that note, the whole Wally being black hadn't really worked out, at least when it comes to the greater comic book fandom. The New 52 Wally didn't act anything like the old Wally. He was also a victim of some pretty outdated portrayals of black youths, i.e. Barry being the white savior for the troubled Wally. The Wally on The Flash TV show was more his own character, with bits and pieces taken from the comics. He had a solid few years in the Arrowverse before essentially leaving from the universe altogether (I think he has made guess appearances though?). The live-action Flash movie has been in development hell for years, only now filming. So even if the DCEU wants to have a black Flash in their movies, it's not happening any time soon.

It was Wally's portrayal in The Flash TV show that made me delusional over the whole thing. I was very on board with the New 52 Wally, getting those first few issues and hyping up the show. But I ended up not liking his portrayal in the comics and in the show. This, along with Marvel's attempts to replace Mutants with Inhumans, had me resent film/TV synergy and has made me skeptical of any future instances of this happening. The revelation that Wally and Wallace were two separate characters should have been a good compromise since now DC has the potential to include two versions of Wally in future media, possibly have them both be partners together a la Peter Parker and Miles Morales. However, DC's insistence in portraying Iris as a black woman in all other appearances besides comic books has made me doubt we will ever get a comics accurate Wally West.

Like I said though, more minority representation is always a good thing, and any actor, no matter their skin tone, can portray Wally. I type all that fully believing it, but there is also a selfish part of me that really wants the comic-book accurate version of Wally that I grew up with being portrayed in live-action. It's an internal conflict that I'm often dealing with. I ultimately settled on the argument that DC shouldn't really worry about both Barry and Wally both being white men, though I write all that knowing how ridiculous that comes off (of course there will always straight, white men superheroes, they will literally never go away). But I mean in the sense I think fans, in general, will be okay with multiple white men being Flash. If minority representation is such a concern then make it up in different ways. Make characters like Wallace and Jess Chambers who can fill that underrepresentation group.

I don't know how much my take on this means in the grand scheme of things, especially since I am not a black person. If it means anything though, I'm a non-Caucasian living in the US, so take that as you will. On the topic of future portrayals of Wally in other media, there is some optimism on that font. Usually, modern-day comics are now written with movies and TV in mind now. So usually when something big happens in the comic, like having the Next Batman be a black guy, it's with the intention that any future media can potentially have their own black Batman. There's a reason why DC is now allowing both Barry and Wally to be both modern-day Flashes, which I take as them being okay with having both characters appear together in any future TV show or movie. As many people posted on these forums, Barry and Wally can be that one Kamen Rider duo who both share the title and appear together in all the team-ups. Not only that, with the recent return of Justice League Unlimited in comic form, as well as the rumored Batman animated series returning, I do believe the classic DCAU with the Justice League will return with Wally back as Flash. I also believe Wally will return in Young Justice, especially now since I believe he was only killed off because he didn't fit with DC's stupid synergy plan. So if anything, while I don't think we'll get an accurate Wally in live-action anytime soon, I actually think streaming animation is where he'll return.

[Dred]

First things first, when they turned Wally black it was with the intention of never passing the mantle onto him. The entire goal was to give Barry a minority sidekick, not a minority successor. Which is why racebending from DC is so disgustingly disingenuous. If they wanted a diverse lineup they would make the star character who's appearing in multiple titles, events, and headlines his own comic black instead of his supporting characters who only show up to...support the straight white man. This is one of the many reasons I've been an ardent supporter of giving Iris II and Jai more screentime and development going on 15 years at this point, because they were the obvious next step to get past Wally who, despite being a great character, is not diverse as a straight white dude (same with Bart). To color what DC did as actual diversity is to undercut how staunchly opposed to real diversity they actually are and have been for years. Wally's race bending is a testament to their shortsightedness and ingrained racism.

Wally being black or korean or native american in external media doesn't mean much if the leading man is actually just always a straight white character. It shows what the companies think minorities are -- supporting characters to the main characters. If you're okay with racebending and your goal is actually diversity then do it to the character who will actually show up on your movie posters and trailers, not for 30 seconds off to the side of the movie to gawk at your white guy character (hello Iris).

As far as I know, YJ doesn't care about DC's synergy. He was killed off because he was expendable, for whatever it's worth. They picked the least important character in the cast and death is drama. I assume YJ will be the last time we see a somewhat comics inspired original Wally but, frankly, I don't think Wally is going to be a main character ever again so his race is pretty irrelevant when it comes to diversity. I'll care when they make the star of whatever Flash movie they're doing anything but a white version of Barry. Or Wally, I guess, but I do not think they will ever, ever do a feature movie with Wally as the lead. They'd much rather just take a good Wally story and staple it onto Barry. If only so they can reuse character models and frames on top of primarily caring about Barry.

[Frontier]

I dunno, I could see Wally popping up as a lead in an adaption or two depending on what they do, but I'm an optimist at heart...

[transformers03]

I dunno, I could see Wally popping up as a lead in an adaption or two depending on what they do, but I'm an optimist at heart...

With DC Multiverse becoming more of a thing thanks to the CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths and The Batman taking place on Earth 2, it's possible for a Wally West to take the lead in a future adaptation as part of the greater DC meta-universe.

If not live-action, then I have more faith in animated feature thanks to the rumored return of the DCAU from the 90s and 2000s, with the animated Justice League getting their own comic series again. If the DCAU does fully return then I can see the return of the providence of Wally in a leading role, even if it is limited to the animated stuff.

[John Venus]

Best fix? Barry is dead again or goes off to the multiverse. Wally is mixed. His kids are mixed. Iris is black. The Tornado Twins and Bart are all mixed as well.

Wally, Wallace or Iris could simply be adopted as well. There's a lot of avenues to go to have both Wally and Wallace as they are now while changing Iris.

That could work but between the tv show and other adaptations, I can see people accusing that of being a cop out. Wally being mixed is fine with me so long as he retains his red hair (be it dyed or natural).

Curious: did TK get a list of characters to use or was he told to use certain characters for certain roles in Identity Crisis 2: Electric Boogaloo? Did he have final say on which characters did what? I'm confused as to how much is TK and how much is editorial?

The sad part is that mental health vis a vis superheroes is an interesting concept. A writer who is interested in exploring the concept could possibly make it work. But I'm reminded of what Linkara said about Sue Dibny's rape in the first Identity Crisis. It was just thrown in there. As with rape, mental health/trauma is not something that you can just throw in there. Especially not a badly constructed murder mystery.

TK offered a story; 'there is a Sanctuary where heroes go for therapy. X goes crazy and kills Y, Z and A then tries to cover it up and blamed N for it.' It was up to editorial to choose who X, Y, Z, A and N were.

I'm pretty sure this was conceived as a murder mystery but then they chose to market it as a look on mental health which they also bungled.

[PennyDreadful]

Best fix? Barry is dead again or goes off to the multiverse. Wally is mixed. His kids are mixed. Iris is black. The Tornado Twins and Bart are all mixed as well.



That could work but between the tv show and other adaptations, I can see people accusing that of being a cop out. Wally being mixed is fine with me so long as he retains his red hair (be it dyed or natural).



TK offered a story; 'there is a Sanctuary where heroes go for therapy. X goes crazy and kills Y, Z and A then tries to cover it up and blamed N for it.' It was up to editorial to choose who X, Y, Z, A and N were.

I'm pretty sure this was conceived as a murder mystery but then they chose to market it as a look on mental health which they also bungled.

That sounds appalling. And yes, I also remember it was briefly marketed as a story about mental health before they went back to the original premise. That . . . confirms a lot of things I'd suspected about it. It was meant to be Identity Crisis 2.0, nothing more. And this time, it backfired, to the point where it was at least partly retconned a year later.

[ducklord]

The account that was given awhile back, right after HiC ended, was that Tom had written the basic premise for the story. Sanctuary is a long standing establishment, one of the patients (a superhero) snaps and kills most of the patients at Sanctuary, implicating two of the only survivors. That story framework was given to Didio to pick the three main characters: The Killer and the two framed people who would act as the heroes. Didio chose Wally to be the killer, and Harley and Booster to be the framed heroes.

This is why we got super, duper early reports -- long before the comic was even shipped out -- that Wally was the killer and he was running around gunning people down. We all thought this was stupid as hell as why would Wally, a guy who can flick a marble at the speed of light, go around shooting people with guns? But Rich was right in the long run that Wally was the killer.

My assumption, and at this point this is just my own speculation with a big of logical deduction, is that Rich's info was basically corroborating two things together: Wally was the Killer and the original HiC story had the killer shooting people. He might've gotten two separate leaks and stitched them together, who knows. It was almost certainly later rewritten into the less murdery version we got. By his account Tom King says he loves Wally West and the story we got might've been less character damning than the one we would've gotten if Wally just got crammed into the position without any rewrites. There's some pretty big plotholes in the story that get created by stupidity at the end that make it seem almost certainly like a late rewrite when people reacted super bad to the leak of Wally being an insane murderer.

TK also says that once Didio gave him the characters he possibly could've asked for different ones but didn't and chose to go with what Didio gave him. It is no surprise to anyone in the comic reading world that Didio saw a story he could use to absolutely fucking annihilate Wally as a character and chose to do it. A legit act of absurd malice towards a character based on his danged preference.

Event or no event, that sounds like the most got-damned inside-out way to write a story that I can possibly imagine.

"I've got this story about psychological trauma in the super-hero community. It's set in this secret place where super-heroes go to work out their issues. One of them loses it, and a whole bunch of them are killed."
"Intriguing. Who's the hero who loses it?"
"I don't know."
"You don't know who your lead character is?"
"He's not the lead. A couple of other characters are going to get framed for the killings. They're arguably the leads in the story."
"Who are they?"
"I don't know."
"Seems like you're going to have a hard time writing this story if you don't know who your leads are."
"Give me some names - I'll make it work."

I mean, I *get* the idea that, when you're writing an "event" book, you sometimes get "wish lists" from on high ("could you please kill Captain Jerkwad? We'd like to promote his sidekick", or "None of the members of Justice League Gamma may appear in this crossover, as they are currently on Apokolips-5")... it comes with the territory. But getting your lead characters dictated from editorial... that just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Oh wait...

[Dred]

That sounds appalling. And yes, I also remember it was briefly marketed as a story about mental health before they went back to the original premise. That . . . confirms a lot of things I'd suspected about it. It was meant to be Identity Crisis 2.0, nothing more. And this time, it backfired, to the point where it was at least partly retconned a year later.

Identity Crisis should've backfired harder than it did, to be honest. It's pretty disgusting and poorly written in a lot of ways.