Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2021

[Hol]

Identity Crisis should've backfired harder than it did, to be honest. It's pretty disgusting and poorly written in a lot of ways.

I know a lot of people here didn’t like Identity Crisis but I’d hardly say it backfired. Unlike HIC it was referenced much more and was the stepping stone for Countdown and Infinite Crisis.

Story points from IdC were picked up later in Teen Titans, Green Arrow, Flash as well as the minis leading up to IC and IC itself. And 52. Identity Crisis was way better received than HIC. I remember it being a hit at the time.

[John Venus]

I doubt it would have gone over as well if it came out today in a post-MeToo era. Not hated, but definitely polarizing.

Plus, IdC came out at a time when DC was much more stable and better coordinated. Whereas HiC came out in a time when DC as a whole was a mess.

[ducklord]

Identity Crisis should've backfired harder than it did, to be honest. It's pretty disgusting and poorly written in a lot of ways.

I was about to scribble a half-hearted defense of why Identity Crisis didn't get the same level of blowback that HiC did, but I suddenly found myself unable to sustain it. After all, both of them had:

1) Characters acting way out of character (i.e. the Zatanna and the satellite-era Justice League mindwiping Batman, 30% of the HiC testimonials, Wally)
2) A murder mystery that falls apart at the end (although HiC's collapse was much more pronounced)
3) Gratuitous deaths (to be fair, the only one that was utterly gratuitous in IC was Firestorm, while all of the ones in HiC could arguably fall under that umbrella)
4) Killers motivated by the fact that they're "Craaaazy," as though that's an acceptable explanation (again, with bonus points to HiC for inventing the entirely new "the Speed Force explodes if you don't meditate" bogosity)
5) Members of the DCU Trinity holding the Idiot Ball (HiC again, was much worse on this front)
6) Questionable treatment of female characters (one of the few places where IC was worse than HiC... much worse)
7) Utter destruction of beloved Flash Family characters (Ralph, Sue, and Wally)

So it just a question of degrees? Was IC tolerated because its excesses weren't as bad is HiC's? Was it because IC, no matter what dark alleyways it went down, was full of genuine authorial intent, whereas HiC seemed like a MadLibs based on a Tom King rough draft?

I dunno. I often think of IC as "a mostly well done story that I wish hadn't been written." HiC, on the other hand, I mostly file away under "almost as bad as Cry for Justice." Given that they have so many traits in common, what's the difference?

[ducklord]

I doubt it would have gone over as well if it came out today in a post-MeToo era. Not hated, but definitely polarizing.

Plus, IdC came out at a time when DC was much more stable and better coordinated. Whereas HiC came out in a time when DC as a whole was a mess.

There's a great deal of truth to both points.

These days there's no WAY a writer could get away with a) inserting Sue's rape into the story, b) having it be a red herring, and c) having absolutely no follow up on it. It's pretty damn sickening to think about.

The stability issue is also a good point. IC occurred at the height of the post-Crisis continuity. Histories were baked in. Everyone knew everybody's backstories. It was a gut punch of a tale because it felt weighty. HiC felt like a massive yoink. "Yeah, we know the DCU's kind of a mess right now, but hey, you remember Wally? He's coming back, and you should see it as a sign that we kind of messed up everything with the New 52. Did we mention that we're turning him into a nonsensical explodey basket case? Eh, if you don't like it, a new continuity'll be along in a few months."

[Dred]

I know a lot of people here didn’t like Identity Crisis but I’d hardly say it backfired. Unlike HIC it was referenced much more and was the stepping stone for Countdown and Infinite Crisis.

Story points from IdC were picked up later in Teen Titans, Green Arrow, Flash as well as the minis leading up to IC and IC itself. And 52. Identity Crisis was way better received than HIC. I remember it being a hit at the time.

That is my point. It should have backfired. It should've gotten way more negative press than it did. It's legitimately awful in incredibly misogynistic ways and genuinely poorly written from a pure plotting standpoint to HiC. It did not and that is a shame. HiC ruined a much more beloved character in Wally in the whole mess so it'd always get more backlash, but IC is worse in other ways.

[Hol]

That is my point. It should have backfired. It should've gotten way more negative press than it did. It's legitimately awful in incredibly misogynistic ways and genuinely poorly written from a pure plotting standpoint to HiC. It did not and that is a shame. HiC ruined a much more beloved character in Wally in the whole mess so it'd always get more backlash, but IC is worse in other ways.

I guess I just don't get it. I loved IDC. I was glued to it when it came out. Have probably re-read it a dozen times. While HIC I despise. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[Hol]

I doubt it would have gone over as well if it came out today in a post-MeToo era. Not hated, but definitely polarizing.

Plus, IdC came out at a time when DC was much more stable and better coordinated. Whereas HiC came out in a time when DC as a whole was a mess.

You are probably right. It wouldn't come out these days. Times have changed. I doubt even a beloved show like the Office could come out these days.

[LAWtoyoto 432]

What not fair right now is that Barry's Flash run has many excellent artist like Rafa Sandoval, Christian Duce, Howard Porter and Scott Kollins while Wally's Flash run on the other end receive soem mediocore artist like Brandon Peterson, Will Braun and shitty David Lafuente . iT'S NOT FAIR..

[Johnny]

Will Conrad is very good so I certainly hope he becomes the regular artist.

[John Venus]

'Promising Young Woman''s screenwriter won an Oscar and 'I May Destroy You' has a 97% RT rating. It is possible to do a story that centers on rape and abuse and have it be successful in this day and age but it requires sensitivity and deftness. Plus DC Vertigo was already touching these mature topics back in the day, so IdC wasn't even that groundbreaking in that regard.

[Waterfall]

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-03.html

The Flash #768 is only on the #79.

As a Wally fans, we are completely disgrace ourselves for letting our beloved runs fall into the deep holes. SHAME!! SHAME!!

Nightwing also seem to be low on the list but we know that it went to second printing. I don't think this website's numbers mean anything anymore.
Though a full relaunch would have benefited the series better. I guess we will see if Jeremy Adams lasts a year on the book. I would like it very much, he seems to have some fun ideas.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There's a great deal of truth to both points.

These days there's no WAY a writer could get away with a) inserting Sue's rape into the story, b) having it be a red herring, and c) having absolutely no follow up on it. It's pretty damn sickening to think about.

The stability issue is also a good point. IC occurred at the height of the post-Crisis continuity. Histories were baked in. Everyone knew everybody's backstories. It was a gut punch of a tale because it felt weighty. HiC felt like a massive yoink. "Yeah, we know the DCU's kind of a mess right now, but hey, you remember Wally? He's coming back, and you should see it as a sign that we kind of messed up everything with the New 52. Did we mention that we're turning him into a nonsensical explodey basket case? Eh, if you don't like it, a new continuity'll be along in a few months."

ID Crisis was weighty, because of what flowed out of it, in fairness.

Both are pure garbage, though. Judging which is worse is really a scale of inches, isn't it? HiC's poor treatment of mental health, ID Crisis' sexist story telling. ID Crisis did kind of set the stage with broad stroke story telling with regards to mystery, that HiC used ("I knew how to screw up Bruce and Barry, never gonna say how!"

[Agent Z]

'Promising Young Woman''s screenwriter won an Oscar and 'I May Destroy You' has a 97% RT rating. It is possible to do a story that centers on rape and abuse and have it be successful in this day and age but it requires sensitivity and deftness. Plus DC Vertigo was already touching these mature topics back in the day, so IdC wasn't even that groundbreaking in that regard.

For comparison, Identity Crisis's use of rape is to:

A) Use it as a retcon to make a goofy Silver Age villain seem more terrifying.

B) Justify a group of heroes (most of whom are men) violating said rapist's mind as well as the mind of their teammate when he tried to stop them.

C) Ignore the reaction of the female rape victim.

And that isn't even getting into the fact that six of the Justice League members are guilty of covering up a rape. I can see why Wonder Woman had such a minimalist role in this story - if she'd learned what the League did to Light and to Sue, she'd have torn down the entire team herself.

[Agent Z]

ID Crisis was weighty, because of what flowed out of it, in fairness.

Both are pure garbage, though. Judging which is worse is really a scale of inches, isn't it? HiC's poor treatment of mental health, ID Crisis' sexist story telling. ID Crisis did kind of set the stage with broad stroke story telling with regards to mystery, that HiC used ("I knew how to screw up Bruce and Barry, never gonna say how!"

Identity Crisis also had the advantage of a more intimate story compared to many other JL stories.

[Hol]

For comparison, Identity Crisis's use of rape is to:

A) Use it as a retcon to make a goofy Silver Age villain seem more terrifying.

B) Justify a group of heroes (most of whom are men) violating said rapist's mind as well as the mind of their teammate when he tried to stop them.

C) Ignore the reaction of the female rape victim.

And that isn't even getting into the fact that six of the Justice League members are guilty of covering up a rape. I can see why Wonder Woman had such a minimalist role in this story - if she'd learned what the League did to Light and to Sue, she'd have torn down the entire team herself.

I personally don't see what is bad or wrong about A and B. Terrible crimes are often used in fiction to make a villain look worse and to justify extreme actions from our heroes...and as far as C? That wasn't what the story was about. And I think that is ok. Someone might want to tell the story of how Sue dealt with the rape but that wasn't what this story was about. Like it or not the story was about the heroes reactions and the repercussions of those actions.