Page 5 of 50 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 737
  1. #61
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    I don't really see the point of the comparison with Superman anyway.

    Repetition is not a good way to handle a theme (Just see Tom King).

  2. #62
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,971

    Default

    There's a difference between thematic reinforcement and...just repeating dialogue consecutively.

    Regardless, I don't get the idea that Waid somehow had this entire run plotted out to create the Speed Force and base his own run on the Speed Force when he himself says he didn't intend for the Speed Force to be such a big deal in the first place and he would've tried to come up with a less stupid name if he realized every Flash writer after him would be so interested in it. The Speed Force was a means to a storytelling goal for Waid, not the goal itself. His goals were create a new Speedster cast, explore Wally and Linda's love life mixed with superhero drama, conclude Wally's character arc and growth to surpass Barry...and give a better explanation for all the stupid Silver Age powers The Flash had because Waid's a big Silver Age nerd. The Speed Force played a big part enabling these stories, but it's not really the point of any of them besides MAYBE Dead Heat. And even that story serves a bigger purpose of letting us know Max's whole deal because everyone loves Max.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-04-2021 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #63
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    ... No other writer after Waid has used the Speed Force as much as Waid.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,971

    Default

    That is 100% untrue. Williamson, Venditti and Manapul certainly use the Speed Force in a greater percentage of their stories and hyperfocused on it more. Waid didn't usher the words "Speed Force" into his comic for a good twenty issues. Can't say the same for basically any modern writer besides Johns since. Hell the entire sequence of events after literally the first five issues in New 52 Flash is ALL Speed Force nonsense. Harvesting Speed Force as a power source, Grodd eating Speed Force, the entire Reverse Flash arc with Daniel.

    Williamson is obviously even worse about it. But his run is a post-ROBA Waid Homage anyhow.

    There are a handful of good Waid arcs that have nearly nothing to do with the Speed Force -- some entirely, some only using it as a reference to how his powers work. Definitely can't do that since Flash Rebirth.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-04-2021 at 06:29 PM.

  5. #65
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Venditti/Jensen used more time-travel stories than Speed Force stories (and they were pretty bad mind you but still) and Williamson was a mix of pretty much everything that came before but still he didn't use the Speed Force as a central theme as much as Waid either.

  6. #66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I don't really see the point of the comparison with Superman anyway.

    Repetition is not a good way to handle a theme (Just see Tom King).
    I think past a certain point though (Return of Barry Allen) it becomes less about Wally surpassing Barry and more about Wally growing further and surpassing himself. I think that's a pretty important part of his character and something that sets him apart.

    For better or worse, Barry is pretty much the same character in the same position we met in the 50s. He's a police scientist dating Iris West with pretty much the same power limitations. We can't reference his kids TOO much or move him too far off that cosmic hamster wheel. He's an archtype in the way that Batman or Superman is. I feel like we all know exactly where Barry's life will more or less be in 50 years. Nothing wrong with that. It's just a different character type.

    Wally has grown and changed so much since his inception and especially since his run as The Flash. I think that history and growth is why some fans gravitate more to Wally and I think it's important for him to always learn and grow further and further.

    I don't want to speak for other fans but this is why the New 52 version primarily felt like such a slap in the face. All his growth and history was gone and he was back to starting out from square one. There were other problems but even if those weren't factors it would be hard to accept Wally starting over. This is why Rebirth had to approach Wally the way that it did.

    It's probably a double edged sword because DC probably finds it hard to find ways to keep evolving Wally as a character but it's essential to who he is and I think Waid's run best reinforces and displays that. This is why I have a hard time as seeing these themes as repetitive as opposed to important to who Wally is and the speedforce is simply a device to display this. I think it works way better with a character like Wally than Barry.
    Last edited by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper; 01-04-2021 at 06:34 PM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Venditti/Jensen used more time-travel stories than Speed Force stories (and they were pretty bad mind you but still) and Williamson was a mix of pretty much everything that came before but still he didn't use the Speed Force as a central theme as much as Waid either.
    I hate talking Venditti's run but no, that's not true. The first like 15 issue arc or some crap was literally all about the BROKEN SPEED FORCE forcing BARRY TO KILL BARRY and Barry being lost in crazy Speed force land. And then the entire Zoom patrol was also an evil Speed Force Powers team. Please stop making me remember it because it is the worst.

    You can not tell a single Williamson story without heavy Speed Force involvement besides...maybe Speed of Darkness? MAYBE? Not really with the whole Speed Force resonance established in the first arc (You know, the Speed Force Storm?) but I suppose it's not central to the story. Unlike...everything else. All the Godspeed stuff, Grodd's New 52 followup story line, Flash War was literally about breaking the Speed Force because it's bad and blah blah. There's a couple of forgettable one off villain ones like Bloodwork that are not Speed Force based but certainly less than Waid. Waid still had stories like "Wally gets kicked out of Keystone and is a superhero in California for a little while!" and whatnot that had nothing to do with the Speed Force. Or Dark Flash Saga which, while it obviously has the Speed Force involved with Walter's further mastery of it...is about entirely different things.

    Like I said, the Speed Force isn't even named that until a full 30 issues into Waid's 100 issue run (and even THEN the immediate, like, 3 issues are about Bart! No mention of Speed Force or Energy Fields or anything, just Wally trying to help save his cousin). And there's several stories and oneshots from there on that have little to do with the Speed Force as central to the goings on.

    I'm not sure if you're memory of things is blending together or what but I can guarantee you Waid's run, by issue, has less focus on the Speed Force than Manapul, Venditti, Williamson, Morrison/Millar, or Johns' second run. Which is every significant run besides Bart's (ugh) and Johns' first run, which i already conceded was certainly less Speed Force focused.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-04-2021 at 06:51 PM.

  8. #68
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Your mum's place
    Posts
    2,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    ... No other writer after Waid has used the Speed Force as much as Waid.
    You're joking right?
    Have you read a Flash book over the last decade???

    Francis Manapul REALLY leaned into it, even rewriting Grodd's history so now HE'S linked to it as well.
    Venditti was just as heavy handed (and pretty awful).
    And Williamson?? Geez, he's entire run has pretty centred around it! Speed Force storms, negative Speed Force, all the assorted Forces, broken Speed Force yada yada yada.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    BR
    Posts
    1,828

    Default

    I find funny the complaint that the guy who created the speed force was writing about it.

  10. #70
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Manapul's run was rather short so he barely counts (and The Rogues along with Mob Rule were a huge part of it which were not Speed Force-related).

    I admitedly forgot about Venditti/Jensen's later Speed Force moments because of their bad quality but again, their run was also short-lived.

    Williamson's run was, again, an amalgam of everything that came before so it made sense for him to use the Speed Force but it hardly felt as repetitive as during Waid's because The Rogues were also a pretty important part of his run (as well as the whole Flash history which wasn't really Speed Force-related and all the other Forces can be blamed on Scott Snyder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I find funny the complaint that the guy who created the speed force was writing about it.
    Again, repetition is key.

  11. #71
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    65,414

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Manapul's run was rather short so he barely counts (and The Rogues along with Mob Rule were a huge part of it which were not Speed Force-related).

    I admitedly forgot about Venditti/Jensen's later Speed Force moments because of their bad quality but again, their run was also short-lived.

    Williamson's run was, again, an amalgam of everything that came before so it made sense for him to use the Speed Force but it hardly felt as repetitive as during Waid's because The Rogues were also a pretty important part of his run (as well as the whole Flash history which wasn't really Speed Force-related and all the other Forces can be blamed on Scott Snyder).
    Manapul's run was probably the most prominent New 52 Flash run, though, so I think it counts.

    I don't think Williamson's run comprising the entire mythos means he used the Speed Force less. He even created all these other Forces that were retroactively connected with the Speed Force.

  12. #72
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He even created all these other Forces that were retroactively connected with the Speed Force.
    Nope, those were Scott Snyder's ideas. His Justice League run was full of derivative stuff like that which he forced on everyone else (Dark Multiverse, Perpetua, the Forces, the, ugh, Ultraviolet Lanterns).

  13. #73
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    65,414

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Nope, those were Scott Snyder's ideas. His Justice League run was full of derivative stuff like that which he forced on everyone else (Dark Multiverse, Perpetua, the Forces, the, ugh, Ultraviolet Lanterns).
    But Williamson spent a few arcs focused on them.

  14. #74
    Always Rakzo
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Peru
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But Williamson spent a few arcs focused on them.
    There's very little choice when there's an editorial mandate.

    Hell, a later storyline in Williamson's run was literally "The Death of the Forces" (which shows how little he cared about them).

  15. #75
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    65,414

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    There's very little choice when there's an editorial mandate.

    Hell, a later storyline in Williamson's run was literally "The Death of the Forces" (which shows how little he cared about them).
    I'm not really sure how mandated the Forces were but I doubt he'd create his own original characters and spent enough time with it if he cared so little about them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •