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  1. #1996
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She is an evil AI based on the memories of a dead woman, and she has personal ties to Veronica, Cheetah and a human sister (if they ever want to bring Leslie back, which they should IMO). I think she has more potential than the pre-Crisis Dr. Cyber, who was always a cool name attached to a cool design with potential that was never realized. She was a generic baddy and never an actual character unfortunately. Bloodlines took her best feature (the design) and mixed it with the AI.

    Brainiac and Grid aren't problems because even though they exist in the same world, it's not like they will feature much in WW stories. Grid is so minor it's barely worth mentioning. Ultron is even less of an issue as similar characters across companies have never provided issues before.
    We were discussing why Dr Cyber aren't used as global threats, and I pointed out that she does the same thing other A.I. villains do so there's no point in making her a villain outside WW stories.

    I mean, I hate the idea of Diana having derivative villains anyway, but it doesn't matter for this discussion. And I think there are so many unique directions you can take the original Dr Cyber on. It's not like Diana has a big connection with technology so I don't see the point of a villain that can control it.

  2. #1997
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    We were discussing why Dr Cyber aren't used as global threats, and I pointed out that she does the same thing other A.I. villains do so there's no point in making her a villain outside WW stories.

    I mean, I hate the idea of Diana having derivative villains anyway, but it doesn't matter for this discussion. And I think there are so many unique directions you can take the original Dr Cyber on. It's not like Diana has a big connection with technology so I don't see the point of a villain that can control it.
    I'd honestly worry about just using Dr. Cyber more in WW comics in general before we worry about using her in other comics. That goes for a lot of her villains. Even outside of it, I think the only other global AI villain that's similar is Brainiac and he has more than enough other stuff to distinguish himself from her. Grid on the other hand is too minor to worry about IMO.

    What are some unique directions old school Dr. Cyber can go in? Because she's kind of derivative of characters like Ra's or (with her look) Dr. Doom, and doesn't have much of a personality beyond that with no compelling connections to other characters. With a name like "Cyber" it's pretty much a given she HAS to be connected to technology, and her controlling it gives her a niche other WW villains don't have and broadens the stories Diana can appear in.

  3. #1998
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'd honestly worry about just using Dr. Cyber more in WW comics in general before we worry about using her in other comics. That goes for a lot of her villains. Even outside of it, I think the only other global AI villain that's similar is Brainiac and he has more than enough other stuff to distinguish himself from her. Grid on the other hand is too minor to worry about IMO.

    What are some unique directions old school Dr. Cyber can go in? Because she's kind of derivative of characters like Ra's or (with her look) Dr. Doom, and doesn't have much of a personality beyond that with no compelling connections to other characters. With a name like "Cyber" it's pretty much a given she HAS to be connected to technology, and her controlling it gives her a niche other WW villains don't have and broadens the stories Diana can appear in.
    I think Cyber pre-dates Ra's but they are both derivatives of the James Bond Villain archetype, both being O'Neil creations after all.

  4. #1999
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    With Cyber a simple question that must be answered is “what does she want?” Money? Power? Her old body back (I would not go with this, too cliche)? If you can give her a different motivation than it doesn’t matter if others have similar powers. Cold and Freeze have the exact same powerset, but very different personalities and motivations. Brainiac isn’t a problem, his wants are so utterly different to what Cyber’s could be unless she wants to start collecting cities.

    And it’s not like there aren’t villains who want the same things and have the same powersets. What’s the difference between Firefly and Heatwave? They’re both pyromaniacs.
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  5. #2000
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'd honestly worry about just using Dr. Cyber more in WW comics in general before we worry about using her in other comics. That goes for a lot of her villains. Even outside of it, I think the only other global AI villain that's similar is Brainiac and he has more than enough other stuff to distinguish himself from her. Grid on the other hand is too minor to worry about IMO.

    What are some unique directions old school Dr. Cyber can go in? Because she's kind of derivative of characters like Ra's or (with her look) Dr. Doom, and doesn't have much of a personality beyond that with no compelling connections to other characters. With a name like "Cyber" it's pretty much a given she HAS to be connected to technology, and her controlling it gives her a niche other WW villains don't have and broadens the stories Diana can appear in.
    I honestly think the bond villain type makes much more sense for Diana than an A.I. villain. But anyway, I don't have a particular pitch for Dr Cyber but she can be a cosmetic villain (which can certainly involve technology), obsessed with dissecting beauty into a formula and thus someone many characters would reach out to on their path to villainy. This could be the origin for Silver Swan (seeking beauty) for Giganta and plenty of other new villains. Or she could also be a direct military threat for Steve Trevor as a spy (007 type).

  6. #2001
    Mighty Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I don't see the potential in the Rebirth Dr Cyber. The evil A.I. robot is in so many stories already. What makes her special in a world with someone like Braniac, and Grid, not to mention Ultron in the Marvel universe.

    Clea could probably be taken in various directions, and I do like her unique look, but there has to be something more to her than just a desire to conquer. Either a special talent/ resource, a special goal or desire, a special personality, whatever. But right now we already have Ocean Master as an undersea conqueror, not to mention all the other space conquerors there are.
    If we were to dismiss the potential of certain ccomic book characters because some other character shares some superficial elements, nobody would ever create new and awesome comic book heroes and villains. Everything has already been done and re-done. The key is in the execution and in how we tell a story, If we are going to dismiss every old WW villain because "so and so already fills that niche," then we will never be able to make Diana's rogues gallery interesting. I mean, how many evil witches and evil gods already exist in comics? How many werepeople as well? Are we going to never use Circe, Ares and CHeetah because of that?

    And really...did you really say that because Diana has no "big connection to technology" Cyber cannot be used well against her? You kidding, right? Does that mean we cannot use science fiction villains or espionage-type villains in Wonder Woman? Can we not use any villain that is not strictly linked to ancient gods and mysthology? COme on, man.
    Last edited by HestiasHearth; 10-02-2021 at 11:58 AM.

  7. #2002
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    If we were to dismiss the potential of certain ccomic book characters because some other character shares some superficial elements, nobody would ever create new and awesome comic book heroes and villains. Everything has already been done and re-done. The key is in the execution and in how we tell a story, If we are going to dismiss every old WW villain because "so and so already fills that niche," then we will never be able to make Diana's rogues gallery interesting. I mean, how many evil witches and evil gods already exist in comics? How many werepeople as well? Are we going to never use Circe, Ares and CHeetah because of that?
    It's not just superficial. Evil A.I. robot is a very basic and repertitiva plot. What exactly can be done with it that hasn't been seen numerous times in other stories?

    And really...did you really say that because Diana has no "big connection to technology" Cyber cannot be used well against her? You kidding, right? Does that mean we cannot use science fiction villains or espionage-type villains in Wonder Woman? Can we not use any villain that is not strictly linked to ancient gods and mysthology? COme on, man.
    I'm all for alien invaders, spy agencies, etc. But I don't see why Cyber being able to control of a technology would be good for a Wonder Woman story. You could convince me otherwise I guess.

  8. #2003
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I honestly think the bond villain type makes much more sense for Diana than an A.I. villain. But anyway, I don't have a particular pitch for Dr Cyber but she can be a cosmetic villain (which can certainly involve technology), obsessed with dissecting beauty into a formula and thus someone many characters would reach out to on their path to villainy. This could be the origin for Silver Swan (seeking beauty) for Giganta and plenty of other new villains. Or she could also be a direct military threat for Steve Trevor as a spy (007 type).
    I don't think a Bond-style villain suits Diana any more than an A.I. villain. Because either way, most people associate her with Greek myth stuff. Which should change, but still.

    Cyber already has done some damage to Steve, Etta and their crew, so there is already precedent for her being involved in stories with them that they could continue. And if we're going to downplay the technology angle, we might as well drop the name and gimmick "Dr. Cyber" altogether, which defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.

    I'd rather see Diana deal with a technological based threat than another female villain obsessed with beauty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I think Cyber pre-dates Ra's but they are both derivatives of the James Bond Villain archetype, both being O'Neil creations after all.
    This is true. But IMO, Cyber didn't stand out much until she started wearing the mask and full body armor, which happened after O'Neil left. Was there ever a reason she was given the name "Cyber" to begin with? It seems like subsequent writers and fans pay more attention to the name and what it causes people to expect than he did.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 10-02-2021 at 12:29 PM.

  9. #2004
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think a Bond-style villain suits Diana any more than an A.I. villain. Because either way, most people associate her with Greek myth stuff. Which should change, but still.
    Steve is a literal spy. That's why a bond villain makes sense
    Cyber already has done some damage to Steve, Etta and their crew, so there is already precedent for her being involved in stories with them that they could continue. And if we're going to downplay the technology angle, we might as well drop the name and gimmick "Dr. Cyber" altogether, which defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.
    I'm not downplaying the technological side, I'm just not a fan of making her another evil A.i.

    Cosmetic beauty and the search for it can easily be centered around technology.

    I ask again, what kind of interesting stories can you tell with A.i. Dr Cyber that benefit from her being an A.i.? Because to me the middle part of Rucka's rebirth run was a slog, and that's precisely the part where his Dr Cyber had a big role.

    I'd rather see Diana deal with a technological based threat than another female villain obsessed with beauty.
    I mean that feels like a logical topic for Wonder Woman. And what other villain does she have that represents that? It's what Cyber was all about for a time in the 70s "The Beauty Hater".

    Last edited by Alpha; 10-02-2021 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #2005
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Steve is a literal spy. That's why a bond villain makes sense
    Then she'd be more of a villain for Steve, and less a viable threat for Diana. And Steve's not the main character. Whereas now, she feels like a threat that can actually challenge them both

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm not downplaying the technological side, I'm just not a fan of making her another evil A.i. Cosmetic beauty and the search for it can easily be centered around technology.

    I ask again, what kind of interesting stories can you tell with A.i. Dr Cyber that benefit from her being an A.i.? Because to me the middle part of Rucka's rebirth run was a slog, and that's precisely the part where his Dr Cyber had a big role.
    She's not a simple A.I. She's an A.I. based on the memories of a dead woman and thinks of herself as that person, which raises larger questions about what constitutes a "living being," and can programmed memories be the equivalent of a soul. By brining back Leslie as Adrianna's sister like I think they should, there is some meaty emotional beats they could hit. How would Leslie react to her sister's "ghost," and how would she interact with Cale about it? Would she be grateful she can talk to her sister again, or would she think the whole thing is sick and twisted? How would Cyber react to Leslie's reactions, etc. Would Cheetah hate her for her part in getting her cursed, or would they both be on the same page of hating both Diana and Veronica and team up? And that's before we get into her building various robot bodies to fight Diana directly or sliding into espionage plots that can involve Steve.

    What interesting stories can you tell with a Bond villain who has no compelling connections to other major characters to build off of? By looking at her actual character as established now, she seems more versatile within Diana's world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I mean that feels like a logical topic for Wonder Woman. And what other villain does she have that represents that? It's what Cyber was all about originally "The Beauty Hater".
    Helen Alexandros as the Silver Swan covers this topic, and IMO does it much better. "The Beauty Hater" is a holdover from one of the most maligned periods of Diana's history and is best left forgotten even if full Bond-style Cyber was ever to be brought back.

  11. #2006
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    Regarding Dr. Cyber, myth vs. science is something Wonder Woman explores and the Rucka Dr. Cyber fits beautifully into that theme. Vanessa's Silver Swan and Dr. Poison, and I'm certain more villains and storylines I can't think of fit into the mode, as well.

    Rucka's Dr. Cyber as a Technological Goddess does seem to have a lot of room for growth and exploration. A high-tech bond villain seems more suitable for Cyborg or Batman.

  12. #2007
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is true. But IMO, Cyber didn't stand out much until she started wearing the mask and full body armor, which happened after O'Neil left. Was there ever a reason she was given the name "Cyber" to begin with? It seems like subsequent writers and fans pay more attention to the name and what it causes people to expect than he did.
    Ah, was unware of that last bit since I'm only aware of the Mod era through the broad strokes.

    I actually though watching American Gods, that the Media God (Gillian Anderson) would actually be a cool way in the comics of how to use Cyber. There's already something of a basis there with what Sharp did.


  13. #2008
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    “Technological Goddess” actually stirs ideas in me. Diana is all about spreading the “Amazon Way” as a force to better people’s lives, but she doesn’t force it. What if that’s how you played Cyber as a foil for her? As a technological being, perhaps Cyber heads up an organization that seeks to forcibly bring about the singularity, with Cyber as its “prophet/goddess”. She’s “ascended” and thinks it’s a better life for everyone. So she’s created an organization that tries to accelerate technological advancement, whatever the cost. Tough luck if you don’t want to become a post human, Cyber isn’t giving you a choice.

    That’s something new, something no other tech villain has at DC I don’t think. Hm maybe I’ll write a blog post about it, flesh it out more.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  14. #2009

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    I like the Technological Goddess angle.

    But I also like the idea of her just being a completely normal human who uses gadgets and technology to get the upper hand on WW.

  15. #2010
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    “Technological Goddess” actually stirs ideas in me. Diana is all about spreading the “Amazon Way” as a force to better people’s lives, but she doesn’t force it. What if that’s how you played Cyber as a foil for her? As a technological being, perhaps Cyber heads up an organization that seeks to forcibly bring about the singularity, with Cyber as its “prophet/goddess”. She’s “ascended” and thinks it’s a better life for everyone. So she’s created an organization that tries to accelerate technological advancement, whatever the cost. Tough luck if you don’t want to become a post human, Cyber isn’t giving you a choice.

    That’s something new, something no other tech villain has at DC I don’t think. Hm maybe I’ll write a blog post about it, flesh it out more.
    this could be an excellent route to go with Cyber.

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