Conner Kent /kon-el appreciation 2021

[Vordan]

I mean, yeah, but we're talking in comparison to Conner in the comics, and in the comics while Tynion was complaining about that Conner wasn't even being published or acknowledged to have ever been a thing. At least for Tim when Damian came along and took Robin he just moved on to Red Robin and continued on in the Titans (and stayed their till Detective during Rebirth)



And DC doesn't seem to care.



Yeah, but Conner's not even a main character in the only in continuity book he's showing up in. His clone apparently is. And even then, it's the Suicide Squad. Even with the movie, that's not exactly where you put your A or even B listers. Deadshot and Harley aren't even on this one to push the book.

My point being that I don't think Conner in a much better position to DC as you think, and I don't think that leaves him out of the conversation for taking a chance like with Tim.

Haven’t you yourself said that a lot of their moves with Conner have more to do with Jon? That they sidelined Conner mainly so as not to threaten Jon’s position as Superboy and then Superman? That Matt Price may be a new Superboy because Conner still being in that role makes things awkward for Jon? None of that points to them thinking there’s a problem with Conner himself, so much as him being in the way of where they want to take Jon. Making Conner bi/gay would overshadow Jon which is precisely what you think they’re trying to avoid.

[Superlad93]

Haven’t you yourself said that a lot of their moves with Conner have more to do with Jon? That they sidelined Conner mainly so as not to threaten Jon’s position as Superboy and then Superman? That Matt Price may be a new Superboy because Conner still being in that role makes things awkward for Jon? None of that points to them thinking there’s a problem with Conner himself, so much as him being in the way of where they want to take Jon. Making Conner bi/gay would overshadow Jon which is precisely what you think they’re trying to avoid.

Maybe a problem in that there's not enough inherent variation with him on display regularly to let him be his own thing while Jon is rising and them not feeling like there's an issue? Especially things like the half Kryptonian bit and confusion on the son or brother thing likely don't help (especially when being half Kryptonian seems to be the reason they're going with for why Jon is more powerful than Clark or Kara). I assume that's why they're leaning more into the clone stuff.

Taylor and PKJ have used the phrase "muddy the waters" a bunch when asked if Conner will come into play. And I think the reason they say that is not because the issue has ever been overshadowing, but rather making Conner distinct from the role that's now Jon's. It's more so dividing the oxygen is what they don't want. You lean in on the clone stuff, do this Banner/Hulk Bizarro stuff, link him to a morally gray team, and maybe make him queer? I'd say that solves the issue. Otherwise, the imagine of Pre-New 52 Conner who may or may not have been in line for the throne is easy to slide back into.

[Drako]

Maybe a problem in that there's not enough inherent variation with him on display regularly to let him be his own thing while Jon is rising and them not feeling like there's an issue? Especially things like the half Kryptonian bit and confusion on the son or brother thing likely don't help (especially when being half Kryptonian seems to be the reason they're going with for why Jon is more powerful than Clark or Kara). I assume that's why they're leaning more into the clone stuff.

Taylor and PKJ have used the phrase "muddy the waters" a bunch when asked if Conner will come into play. And I think the reason they say that is not because the issue has ever been overshadowing, but rather making Conner distinct from the role that's now Jon's. It's more so dividing the oxygen is what they don't want. You lean in on the clone stuff, do this Banner/Hulk Bizarro stuff, link him to a morally gray team, and maybe make him queer? I'd say that solves the issue. Otherwise, the imagine of Pre-New 52 Conner who may or may not have been in line for the throne is easy to slide back into.

Why not make Jon the queer character of the Super family?

[13th Superman]

With Tim you have some who may argue he's had subtext going back to his solo series. With Conner I have never seen anything like that. He's constantly pursued, thought of and dreamed of women. Sure people can change but for me it's like Superman is going to suddenly find Steve Lombard attractive or attempt to date Bruce Wayne. It feels too OC. Again fictional characters and retcons aside, there has to be a through line, something for me to make sense of it. They can try to make Jon queer. His sexuality has never been touched on and so it wouldn't feel out of place. He's a blank slate. If he's a new generation of Superman why not make him bi. He'll still have descendants and that's so far off in the future he can have a series of love interests

[witchboy]

I can see both sides of whether Jon or Conner should be queer (I have no objection to both but at this point it feels like a stretch to get one)
Jon is more of a blank slate. There's not a big hetero history to work against.
Conner is more at risk for getting lost in the shuffle with Jon stealing his spotlight as it is. Tim and Conner have always had a fan base that wanted them together and Tim is just now starting to date a guy and figuring things out.
Beyond wanting Tim and Conner together, I want them used well. Give them a spotlight role in Young Justice, let them start a new Outsiders, something.

[Superlad93]

Why not make Jon the queer character of the Super family?

I'd imagine there's enough "heat" on Jon as an IP due to the age up and taking the Superman mantle. They may not want that for him on top of that. Which would further explain putting fan favorite Taylor on his book to smooth things over.

Plus, House of El confirms that the majority of the Els we see (at the very least the twins and Brandon and his daughter) are of Jon's direct line. This means something because House of El wasn't PKJ's idea, but rather an idea that they came to PKJ with to write. The same goes for Mon-El in Legion if you want an in continuity example. That's not to say there aren't other ways of having biological children or that this excludes being bi, but DC his rarely that nuanced, so I tend to think that means the intent is that he's straight.

They can try to make Jon queer. His sexuality has never been touched on and so it wouldn't feel out of place.

Simply because of his relatively short publication life it isn't wall to wall stories, but it's certainly been touched on. Feelings for Kathy were implied when he was a kid, and he flat out dated Saturn Girl.

Also, as previously stated, Mon-El is his 6x great grandson directly from his line, and in House of El the Superman of the 31st century, his sister, and their nearest cousins, Brandon Kent and his daughter, are from Jon's line (the twins were even explicitly stated to be of his line in the solicitation for the book). And this isn't a book PKJ thought up, but rather a book that DC editorial thought up and told PKJ to write

[witchboy]

I kinda think they're be potential in navigating the idea of Kon being straight and he and Tim confronting and dealing with one's attraction to the other that's not reciprocated. That's part of life too, and if done well could be pretty touching. I can't recall something of significance like that being a storyline before. Quite probable there has been but I just can't recall one. Who knows what they want to do though. I would disagree with what was said earlier in my belief that Tim had the bigger, more impactful relationshipin relation to Stephanie. I just don't think Conner/Cassie lasted long enough to be as impactful. So in my mind he really has no iconic female partner, despite personally always digging his dynamic with Cass Cain. So its not something that they couldn't do. Just don't know if its on the radar. Could be they're more interested in creating a character specifically for Tim in the Bat-line, be it this new guy who asked him out on a date or someone entirely new for the long run.

They did they story in the JLA in the 90s, where Obsidian told Nuklon he loved him. Nuklon didn't reciprocate, was a little freaked out, but they ultimately had a stronger friendship. And Obsidian, who wasn't really out at the time, didn't want to label his feelings anyways.

[witchboy]

Just gotta point out though: bromance is not for cowards. There's room for both things. Bromances are real and awesome, whether they keep Tim and Conner as that or not.

As a gay man the term bromance grates on my nerves. I find it low key homophobic even. It muddies the waters between friendship and romance, and I sometimes see it used for actual same sex relationships. It gives the impression a same sex relationship is closer to friendship than a "real" romance.

[13th Superman]

I'd imagine there's enough "heat" on Jon as an IP due to the age up and taking the Superman mantle. They may not want that for him on top of that. Which would further explain putting fan favorite Taylor on his book to smooth things over.

Plus, House of El confirms that the majority of the Els we see (at the very least the twins and Brandon and his daughter) are of Jon's direct line. This means something because House of El wasn't PKJ's idea, but rather an idea that they came to PKJ with to write. The same goes for Mon-El in Legion if you want an in continuity example. That's not to say there aren't other ways of having biological children or that this excludes being bi, but DC his rarely that nuanced, so I tend to think that means the intent is that he's straight.



Simply because of his relatively short publication life it isn't wall to wall stories, but it's certainly been touched on. Feelings for Kathy were implied when he was a kid, and he flat out dated Saturn Girl.

Also, as previously stated, Mon-El is his 6x great grandson directly from his line, and in House of El the Superman of the 31st century, his sister, and their nearest cousins, Brandon Kent and his daughter, are from Jon's line (the twins were even explicitly stated to be of his line in the solicitation for the book). And this isn't a book PKJ thought up, but rather a book that DC editorial thought up and told PKJ to write

That wouldn't stop him from being bi though. You have plenty of bisexual men in heterosexual relationships. If some can imagine that with Conner than you can imagine that with Jon. Jon's sexuality wasn't nearly as touched on to the extent as Conner's. Tana Moon, Knockout, Serling Roquette, Cassandra Cain, and of course Cassandra Sandsmark. I can go on.

[13th Superman]

As a gay man the term bromance grates on my nerves. I find it low key homophobic even. It muddies the waters between friendship and romance, and I sometimes see it used for actual same sex relationships. It gives the impression a same sex relationship is closer to friendship than a "real" romance.

Wow I had no idea. I'm guilty of using the term but never looked at it from that perspective. Sorry about that.

[Vordan]

Why not make Jon the queer character of the Super family?

That wouldn't stop him from being bi though. You have plenty of bisexual men in heterosexual relationships. If some can imagine that with Conner than you can imagine that with Jon. Jon's sexuality wasn't nearly as touched on to the extent as Conner's. Tana Moon, Knockout, Serling Roquette, Cassandra Cain, and of course Cassandra Sandsmark. I can go on.

They totally could, but Jon being the blood son with Lois Lane and their plans for him are why they won’t. If WB is in fact eyeing Jon up for a movie, making him bi would be a negative in their eyes. There’s a reason most LGBT rep in big movies is either just a quick cameo, easily edited out, or a side character. The overseas box office would be negatively impacted, China and Russia might even ban your movie.

And it’s all about the movie/TV show/video game money these days.

Honestly I’ve never felt there’s any evidence for either of those two being queer and I still prefer Midnighter and Apollo as the official gay members of the Superfamily over pandering to Tumblr. Tim being bi/gay is fine with me though.

[Superlad93]

That wouldn't stop him from being bi though. You have plenty of bisexual men in heterosexual relationships. If some can imagine that with Conner than you can imagine that with Jon. Jon's sexuality wasn't nearly as touched on to the extent as Conner's. Tana Moon, Knockout, Serling Roquette, Cassandra Cain, and of course Cassandra Sandsmark. I can go on.

It certainly would not, but...lets be serious: given DC's track record with Jon Kent do you honestly think they'd go for this? Honestly.

They've treated this character so preciously and have painstakingly gone through the trouble of making it clear that he's the "chip off the ol' block" of the Superman family that it's unlikely the intent is for anything more than interracial homosexual relationship.

When asking yourself who DC's willing to take the risk with when it comes to this you have to remember that one of these characters was actively sidelined multiple times, and seems to be continuing to be sidelined (as not to "muddy the waters") so the other could fully stretch out. I imagine it's the same with Damian and Tim. One may be younger and have next to nothing in terms of a romantic history, but that same one is also held far closer to the vest, thus they're less willing to make moves with them that they can't run back.

[witchboy]

They totally could, but Jon being the blood son with Lois Lane and their plans for him are why they won’t. If WB is in fact eyeing Jon up for a movie, making him bi would be a negative in their eyes. There’s a reason most LGBT rep in big movies is either just a quick cameo, easily edited out, or a side character. The overseas box office would be negatively impacted, China and Russia might even ban your movie.

And it’s all about the movie/TV show/video game money these days.

Honestly I’ve never felt there’s any evidence for either of those two being queer and I still prefer Midnighter and Apollo as the official gay members of the Superfamily over pandering to Tumblr. Tim being bi/gay is fine with me though.

I really want a gay - or two - male Superfamily member.
I don't really consider Apollo and Midnighter to be Superfamily members. If DC wants to claim them as such they really need to build up their presence and relationships with other Superfamily members. I just don't see the connection being there at this time. And Apollo and Midnighter were far more interesting to me in Wildstorm than as part of the main DCU.
I'd much prefer Conner or Jon as the gay Superfamily members.

[13th Superman]

Honestly I’ve never felt there’s any evidence for either of those two being queer and I still prefer Midnighter and Apollo as the official gay members of the Superfamily over pandering to Tumblr. Tim being bi/gay is fine with me though.

Oh I completely agree with you 100%. Wish they brought Apollo and Midnighter into the Super Family fold on a regular basis.They're pretty much like Nightwing and Flambird.

[witchboy]

Wow I had no idea. I'm guilty of using the term but never looked at it from that perspective. Sorry about that.

I really appreciate you having an open mind on that. I don't think most people who use the term see why it's a problem and I'm sure mean no harm. I don't take it that people mean it that way, but the implication is there, just unintended mostly.