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  1. #631
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Against my better judgement, I sat through the first episode of King of Atlantis last night. I finished my 3rd glass of wine halfway through, and it got surprisingly better! Still not what I would want from an Aquaman animated series, but whatever.

    Oh, and the last time the Atlantean monarchy was depicted well was Jurgens & Epting's run - 20 years ago.
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  2. #632
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    Against my better judgement, I sat through the first episode of King of Atlantis last night. I finished my 3rd glass of wine halfway through, and it got surprisingly better! Still not what I would want from an Aquaman animated series, but whatever.

    Oh, and the last time the Atlantean monarchy was depicted well was Jurgens & Epting's run - 20 years ago.
    Well Johns at least had Arthur settling in as king and Parker didn't treat it badly at all.

  3. #633
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Abnett's opening arc for Rebirth was a great showcase of Arthur's immense pressures as a king and I thought he gave us a very textured Atlantis until he started writing about Trumpism with Rath.
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  4. #634
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Abnett's opening arc for Rebirth was a great showcase of Arthur's immense pressures as a king and I thought he gave us a very textured Atlantis until he started writing about Trumpism with Rath.
    Yeah, I kind of missed when the book was about Arthur trying to get out there and build the surface world and Atlantis together and not getting undermined and overthrown for the umpteenth time.

  5. #635
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Abnett's opening arc for Rebirth was a great showcase of Arthur's immense pressures as a king and I thought he gave us a very textured Atlantis until he started writing about Trumpism with Rath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, I kind of missed when the book was about Arthur trying to get out there and build the surface world and Atlantis together and not getting undermined and overthrown for the umpteenth time.
    As much as I liked Abnett's run, that's why I didn't mention it. His endgame was always Corum Rath, so that good Atlantean stuff early on was just set up imo.
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  6. #636
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    As much as I liked Abnett's run, that's why I didn't mention it. His endgame was always Corum Rath, so that good Atlantean stuff early on was just set up imo.
    I still overall enjoyed the run, even if I was fatigued by the ending arc. From New 52 until KSD, the only time I wasn't enjoying Aquaman was Cullen Bunn's run.
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  7. #637
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I mean, if Atlantis being a monarchy is such a problem why not just have Atlantis/Themyscira adopt a Parlimentary system like Great Britain, New Zealand or India?

    I enjoy monarchies as much as the next guy but I feel like too many fiction nowadays romanticize it too much and the only drama they seem to be able to squeeze out of it is characters fighting for the throne and that's getting old.

  8. #638
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I mean, if Atlantis being a monarchy is such a problem why not just have Atlantis/Themyscira adopt a Parlimentary system like Great Britain, New Zealand or India?

    I enjoy monarchies as much as the next guy but I feel like too many fiction nowadays romanticize it too much and the only drama they seem to be able to squeeze out of it is characters fighting for the throne and that's getting old.
    You're not wrong. The biggest problem I have with the monarchy as portrayed in the comics is that, well, it's the usual remix of "long live the king! How dare this half-breed adopt progressive policy! Kill the king! SAVE US ARTHUR! Long live the king..." Rinse, repeat.

    But going full-blown democracy did kind of homogenize it with respect to the larger DCU, so I don't know if that was the best take.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
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  9. #639
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You're not wrong. The biggest problem I have with the monarchy as portrayed in the comics is that, well, it's the usual remix of "long live the king! How dare this half-breed adopt progressive policy! Kill the king! SAVE US ARTHUR! Long live the king..." Rinse, repeat.

    But going full-blown democracy did kind of homogenize it with respect to the larger DCU, so I don't know if that was the best take.
    I think it's just a thing where, like with Black Panther, being king of Altantis and King of the Sea is baked into Aquaman's character so it's not something you can completely divorce from him permanently.

  10. #640
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's just a thing where, like with Black Panther, being king of Altantis and King of the Sea is baked into Aquaman's character so it's not something you can completely divorce from him permanently.
    Not without replacing it with something equally interesting, and while being a parent is an interesting hook, it has an expiration date. People are going to want to see Andy Curry interacting with other characters.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  11. #641
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Not without replacing it with something equally interesting, and while being a parent is an interesting hook, it has an expiration date. People are going to want to see Andy Curry interacting with other characters.
    And people also want to see Arthur as a hero and leader and not just a dad, in my opinion.

    (and also not shirtless all the time, but that's another thing).

  12. #642
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And people also want to see Arthur as a hero and leader and not just a dad, in my opinion.

    (and also not shirtless all the time, but that's another thing).
    I agree on all counts, but typically you need to be additive to make a lasting change. The monarchy and its vicious cycle will return eventually because nothing narratively juicy was installed in its place.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
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  13. #643
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You're not wrong. The biggest problem I have with the monarchy as portrayed in the comics is that, well, it's the usual remix of "long live the king! How dare this half-breed adopt progressive policy! Kill the king! SAVE US ARTHUR! Long live the king..." Rinse, repeat.

    But going full-blown democracy did kind of homogenize it with respect to the larger DCU, so I don't know if that was the best take.
    Democracy isn't going to be the same for every country. Even the US democracy is different from other democracies since other countries don't have electoral colleges or filibusters. Especially if it's a country like Atlantis that is just transitioning from a full blown Monarchy to a Democracy.

    I don't know how KSD handled it but there is tons of conflict that would arise from Atlantis becoming a democracy. I mean, Arthur had to worry about Orm before? Now he is going to have to worry about corrupt Atlanteans and opportunists and con artists from hijacking government institutions for their own gain, he has to worry about ensuring a free media while said media can be used against him, he has to deal with the large number of skeptical Atlanteans who wants to return to the 'old ways', he has to deal with wilful ignorance and wilful cynicism, Atlantean nationalists, outside forces who want to interfere in his country during it's most vulnerable time, etc, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's just a thing where, like with Black Panther, being king of Altantis and King of the Sea is baked into Aquaman's character so it's not something you can completely divorce from him permanently.
    Hence why him becoming the 'Head of State' would probably be the best solution if writers have trouble with the 'ethics' of a monarchy.

  14. #644
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Democracy isn't going to be the same for every country. Even the US democracy is different from other democracies since other countries don't have electoral colleges or filibusters. Especially if it's a country like Atlantis that is just transitioning from a full blown Monarchy to a Democracy.

    I don't know how KSD handled it but there is tons of conflict that would arise from Atlantis becoming a democracy. I mean, Arthur had to worry about Orm before? Now he is going to have to worry about corrupt Atlanteans and opportunists and con artists from hijacking government institutions for their own gain, he has to worry about ensuring a free media while said media can be used against him, he has to deal with the large number of skeptical Atlanteans who wants to return to the 'old ways', he has to deal with wilful ignorance and wilful cynicism, Atlantean nationalists, outside forces who want to interfere in his country during it's most vulnerable time, etc, etc.



    Hence why him becoming the 'Head of State' would probably be the best solution if writers have trouble with the 'ethics' of a monarchy.
    We don't know much. Mera just hits the basics of democracy, abdicates the throne and the book ended.

    Yes, there are many avenues to a democratic government, but what I remember didn't come off as particularly nuanced so much as "monarchs bad. Representative government good," which I agree with in life but fiction is a different beast.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  15. #645
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    We don't know much. Mera just hits the basics of democracy, abdicates the throne and the book ended.

    Yes, there are many avenues to a democratic government, but what I remember didn't come off as particularly nuanced so much as "monarchs bad. Representative government good," which I agree with in life but fiction is a different beast.
    And it really just came off like she wanted to be done with it so she and Arthur can just be done with Atlantis and politics.

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