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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    I wouldn't say man without a pride, nor weak. I'd say a STUD IN LOVE.

    Love makes us do stupid things. It's one of it's charms. <3
    Love does not make you become someone without moral principles.

  2. #47
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    It does, unfortunately or fortunately. I've seen my fair share of friends, colleagues, cousins and all around human race trample over themselves for love.

    It's a weird human condition and brain sometimes has no input in it.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    It does, unfortunately or fortunately. I've seen my fair share of friends, colleagues, cousins and all around human race trample over themselves for love.

    It's a weird human condition and brain sometimes has no input in it.
    So you will tell other people to keep stealing stuffs if you have feelings for them?

  4. #49
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Am I Catwoman in this scenario or Batman?

    Because if we are talking about Batman, he is not very emotionally mature to be in a relationship. All he ever had was a molehill of models, actresses, supervillainesses for hot steamy one time only romance/sex. So it's not too far fetched that he loses his mind like a schoolboy first time in love for a hot woman in a skintight leather.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Am I Catwoman in this scenario or Batman?

    Because if we are talking about Batman, he is not very emotionally mature to be in a relationship. All he ever had was a molehill of models, actresses, supervillainesses for hot steamy one time only romance/sex. So it's not too far fetched that he loses his mind like a schoolboy first time in love for a hot woman in a skintight leather.
    I feel repelled if you think Batman should be that kind of hero. The kind of crime fighter that tells other to steal.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-28-2021 at 09:35 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Also i dont like the way DC just pulled the wedding stunt and still make it not look like a big deal. Why do they have Batman keep pursuing a relationship with a woman who left him at the altar? It makes him look weak. Not only he is a morally compromised crime fighter but also a man without pride.
    I always hated that, but more because it was such an overwrought melodrama it no longer felt like a real story to me, but a long-winded pseudo-philosophical attempt at emotionally evaluating Batman, Catwoman, and the world around the with bad dialogue.

    A better writer could have had them get married, than had more believable issues emerge, or have something more substantial break them up before th wedding.

    Nothing about the overall concept of the marriage was wrong... until Tom King tried to pull the whole “Can Batman be happy?” balderdash.

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Love does not make you become someone without moral principles.
    Love *can* make someone behave worse... and love *can* make someone behave better... but especially in fictional stories.

    Earth Two Catwoman basically reformed entirely when she and Batman got together, both in the Pre-Crisis and New 52 versions.

    Half the fun of a seriously-considered Batman and Catwoman romance outside of parallel universes is how you approach their different moralities and feelings to each other. It’s no coincidence that her first solo series, where she was mostly a classy thief and outlaw anti-hero, didn’t make her a serious love interest to Batman, but rather a flirt with some unresolved sexual tension and an admiration for him. It’s also no coincidence that almost immediately after her second solo launched with her as a more straight up crime fighter, she became a “serious” love interest.

    Good writers make sure that Batman himself doesn’t get comprise send by the relationship, and it mostly just leads to Catwoman acting more heroic.

    Even when Dini was splitting hairs between Gotham City Sirens Catwoman and her romance, it was clear she was more heroic than not.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Love *can* make someone behave worse... and love *can* make someone behave better... but especially in fictional stories.

    Good writers make sure that Batman himself doesn’t get comprise send by the relationship, and it mostly just leads to Catwoman acting more heroic.

    Even when Dini was splitting hairs between Gotham City Sirens Catwoman and her romance, it was clear she was more heroic than not.
    I can buy that Batman could let Catwoman off the hooks for a few times. But when you have Batman let her off the hooks too many times, it makes the hero look bad. When you have Batman tell other to steal, it looks worse.

    I dont see a crime fighting Catwoman being more interesting than other Batfam characters anyway. Because i love him so i fight crime with him is a weak motive. So when you dont love him anymore, you give up on crime fighting? Its more believable that she would be the person trying to pull him out of crime fighting instead of joining with him. She is just that character that hits a narrative dead end.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-28-2021 at 10:09 AM.

  8. #53
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    An interesting conversation you guys got there. That reminds me that once upon a time Bruce said to Talia and Selina that he can't be with them as long as they're committing crimes, or supporting her father.

    This is more of a Bruce question than Selina's question, to be honest, but I'm not finished with a Bruce question in the Bruce thread, so I'll just ask here. When's the first time he compromised? Specifically about Selina since this is a Selina thread?

    ...Nevermind. I remember immediately that he let her go the first time he met because he was so smitten, but he's not committed to her yet. So he had that problem from the start.

    So a more specific question. When's the first time he made a compromise for her while they're in a relationship?

    Wait, hold on, when's every time they have an official relationship? No more rooftop chase, but actual boyfriend and girlfriend? I remember Earth-2, Hush, and King, that's it. Are there others?

    Oh right, they're almost dating in the Pre to Post Crisis transition when Jason Todd was Robin.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 02-28-2021 at 10:44 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    An interesting conversation you guys got there. That reminds me that once upon a time Bruce said to Talia and Selina that he can't be with them as long as they're committing crimes, or supporting her father.

    This is more of a Bruce question than Selina's question, to be honest, but I'm not finished with a Bruce question in the Bruce thread, so I'll just ask here. When's the first time he compromised? Specifically about Selina since this is a Selina thread?

    ...Nevermind. I remember immediately that he let her go the first time he met because he was so smitten, but he's not committed to her yet. So he had that problem from the start.

    So a more specific question. When's the first time he made a compromise for her while they're in a relationship?

    Wait, hold on, when's every time they have an official relationship? No more rooftop chase, but actual boyfriend and girlfriend? I remember Earth-2, Hush, and King, that's it. Are there others?
    I believe Moench’s Pre-Crisis runs and others in the Bronze Age had them as a crime fighting couple for a while - there was a strong tradition of her being more anti-heroine than not by that point even outside fo Earth Two.

    Then you have Paul Dini kind of creating a “they’re a couple in *my* books at least” think during his runs on Detective Comics and Streets of Gotham before the New 52.

    Though to your main point... I can’t think of any time that he specifically “allowed” her to do something “bad” while they were in a relationship, at least not without caveats (like how in the Gotham City Sirens books, it was very ambiguous just how villainous the three leads were at the time, and Selina was still portrayed as the good one in their group.)

    Though more interesting for me is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    I can buy that Batman could let Catwoman off the hooks for a few times. But when you have Batman let her off the hooks too many times, it makes the hero look bad. When you have Batman tell other to steal, it looks worse.

    I dont see a crime fighting Catwoman being more interesting than other Batfam characters anyway. Because i love him so i fight crime with him is a weak motive. So when you dont love him anymore, you give up on crime fighting? Its more believable that she would be the person trying to pull him out of crime fighting instead of joining with him. She is just that character that hits a narrative dead end.
    First off, most of the time that her being a heroine and dating him corresponds, she’s a heroine *before* she dates him, and the remains such *after* they break up.

    BUT! There actually *have* been times where Bruce has hired Selina to steal something, or allowed her to escape from some larceny because her actions have suited some strangers he has...

    ...Which often plays into what exactly the audience thinks Batman’s job is more about - “Fighting Crime” or “Pursuing Justice.” Whenever he character is portrayed more as the former, he tends to be much more of an antagonist to Selina who doesn’t give her any leeway - she just has to escape him, and the reason he ain’t always pursuing her is because he simply has bigger fish to fry. However, there’ve been a few times when Bruce has been portrayed as the former, and since “justice” is a much less concrete and passionless ideal, Batman himself is more outlaw than not... at which point Catwoman’s more “Robin Hood” aspects become a boon to his story and cause.

    But also, to be blunt, Catwoman herself has vxiallated as to what type of thief she is often enough she can be a “loveable rogue” committing “victimless crimes” that makes it easier for Batman to not bother - if she just robs rich jerks of stuff they’ve insured, and especially if she uses it to support others, it’s pretty hard to justify Batman being unforgiving with her in an ultimately fictional world.

    She sure as heck doesn’t have a “narrative dead end,” though.
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  10. #55
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    I think I remember during Incorporated, the one time Morrison used Catwoman he had Bruce and Selina teaming-up in Japan(?) and Selina ends up hijacking the mission for a heist or trying to get something out of it.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think I remember during Incorporated, the one time Morrison used Catwoman he had Bruce and Selina teaming-up in Japan(?) and Selina ends up hijacking the mission for a heist or trying to get something out of it.
    Yeah it's in Japan, they're trying to recruit Jiro, but I haven't read it. I only saw the giant octopus in the preview.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah it's in Japan, they're trying to recruit Jiro, but I haven't read it. I only saw the giant octopus in the preview.
    They couldn't resist making a tentacle rape joke .

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But also, to be blunt, Catwoman herself has vxiallated as to what type of thief she is often enough she can be a “loveable rogue” committing “victimless crimes” that makes it easier for Batman to not bother - if she just robs rich jerks of stuff they’ve insured, and especially if she uses it to support others, it’s pretty hard to justify Batman being unforgiving with her in an ultimately fictional world.

    She sure as heck doesn’t have a “narrative dead end,” though.
    Bruce's parents were rich people who got murdered and had their possessions taken a way by a mugger so i dont think you could argue that Batman would allow Catwoman to steal even if its from rich people. Batman knows stealing is wrong even if its from rich people.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post

    ...Which often plays into what exactly the audience thinks Batman’s job is more about - “Fighting Crime” or “Pursuing Justice.” Whenever he character is portrayed more as the former, he tends to be much more of an antagonist to Selina who doesn’t give her any leeway - she just has to escape him, and the reason he ain’t always pursuing her is because he simply has bigger fish to fry. However, there’ve been a few times when Bruce has been portrayed as the former, and since “justice” is a much less concrete and passionless ideal, Batman himself is more outlaw than not... at which point Catwoman’s more “Robin Hood” aspects become a boon to his story and cause.

    But also, to be blunt, Catwoman herself has vxiallated as to what type of thief she is often enough she can be a “loveable rogue” committing “victimless crimes” that makes it easier for Batman to not bother - if she just robs rich jerks of stuff they’ve insured, and especially if she uses it to support others, it’s pretty hard to justify Batman being unforgiving with her in an ultimately fictional world.
    This is how I always see Batman anyway. He HIMSELF is an outlaw, breaking the law every single night for the "greater good," right? And yet he won't forgive her for being a jewel thief? That's weak. I don't think it makes sense either, because she's been more heroic than villainous for decades now. Talia is a different story, because she kills but Catwoman's crimes should hardly be a dealbreaker. They're a perfect match really.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    This is how I always see Batman anyway. He HIMSELF is an outlaw, breaking the law every single night for the "greater good," right? And yet he won't forgive her for being a jewel thief? That's weak. I don't think it makes sense either, because she's been more heroic than villainous for decades now. Talia is a different story, because she kills but Catwoman's crimes should hardly be a dealbreaker. They're a perfect match really.
    He works with the GCPD. If Catwoman comes to the GCPD, she would be put in jail. You dont seem to understand Batman.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-28-2021 at 12:51 PM.

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