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  1. #46
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, Garth was never Arthur's son. I am not exactly a Dolphin/Arthur shipper but this situation is not a Bruce/Barbara thing.
    Not biologically, but he was basically a father figure to Garth.

    I remember Arthur being ticked at the Titans when he thought they endangered Garth. Then he went on the warpath to find him.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Where was her age even stated?

    Later writers not following up on what PAD did is not a mark against his run. DC has rebooted and retconned multiple beloved and iconic stories simply because they could. They did it with Perez and Rucka's Wonder Woman, with Cassandra Cain, with everything about Wally West. PAD was the reason anyone in the 90s even gave a damn about Aquaman and the character would have languished as a joke and relic from the Silver Age if not for him. Hell, he introduced the first main character of color into the Aquaman mythos years before Lorena and Jackson showed up so getting rid of everything he did isn't without its own unfortunate implications.

    He brought Mera back eventually and there was nothing about his run that needed to be tossed out. Johns pretty much followed the same formula as David, the only major difference is he used Mera and other characters he was interested in instead of utilizing the rest of the cast. It's not as if Mera had anything interesting going for her at the time of the 90s. She's only an interesting character because of Johns.




    Also, where was this ever stated?
    ErfYn3TXAAEbbQY.jpg
    Johns Run is a TOTAL repudiation of this Aquaman of PAD. In which He was ridiculous, who he maimed as none ever before him. The only good in that run was some World building but with awful characters.

    Dan Didio related that Aquaman was always a problem and that until Johns various writers approached with a solution for Aquaman, one of which he actually went for it - Sword of Atlantis and it proved a disaster.
    Had PAD left some awesome legacy others would have continued in his footsteps, just as Parker, Abnett and KSD did after Johns. While with PAD the writers that followed him in the issues immediately after, they distanced themselves from him his run.
    PAD also failed to see the potential in Mera, if she had nothing interesting going for her in the 90's same could be said before Johns. But the later was clever enough to see that potential and today she is an Awesome character, probably with Wonder Woman and Supergirl, the most powerful DC female character.

  3. #48
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Ah, glad she was just as old as his surrogate son who she later married. Not creepy at all to be dating someone your kid's age.



    Well-drawn as that scene is, considering how much she hated being referred to as Aquawoman, I really didn't enjoy her putting the costume on. Glad that thread dropped in Rebirth.
    The pic I posted was intended as comparison between Mother and daughter.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    Johns Run is a TOTAL repudiation of this Aquaman of PAD. In which He was ridiculous, who he maimed as none ever before him.
    Showing one image out of context does not prove anything.

    And as we know Johns never maimed Aquaman or any other character.



    David maiming Aquaman is not inherently a flaw just because no one had done it before.


    Dan Didio related that Aquaman was always a problem and that until Johns various writers approached with a solution for Aquaman, one of which he actually went for it - Sword of Atlantis and it proved a disaster.
    Didio is also the same guy who screwed over the Milestone characters, ruined Wally West and kept trying to off Dick Grayson.

    Had PAD left some awesome legacy others would have continued in his footsteps, just as Parker, Abnett and KSD did after Johns.
    Again, DC throwing out what a previous writer did does not mean that writer's run was bad. They've done it numerous times for no other reason based on the whims of the editors and writers at the time. David rescued Aquaman from the scrappy heap after he had spent decades as a joke because of Superfriends.


    PAD also failed to see the potential in Mera, if she had nothing interesting going for her in the 90's same could be said before Johns. But the later was clever enough to see that potential and today she is an Awesome character, probably with Wonder Woman and Supergirl, the most powerful DC female character.
    So your argument against PAD boils down to him just not using a character he wasn't interested in but you wanted? Sorry, but that's just being petty. David is not the first nor last writer who didn't have any interest in certain supporting characters. It does not inherently make him a bad writer. If Mera didn't become an interesting character until the late 2000s despite having been around since the 1960s maybe you should take a look at what was wrong with her before that period. For every character Johns revamps, there's about three more he's screwed up.

    And no, Mera is not the most powerful DC female character.

    Johns didn't repudiate anything David did. If anything, his run has been even more of a soap opera especially when it comes to Mera's sanity.

  5. #50
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, Garth was never Arthur's son. I am not exactly a Dolphin/Arthur shipper but this situation is not a Bruce/Barbara thing.




    That is objectively not true. Regardless of your feelings about the run, it's the reason DC continued to see Aquaman as a viable comic IP well into the 21st Century.
    I mean, damn dude, if sales is the metric of doing a character favors then I guess Liefeld was a great artist in the 90s and remains one of the titans of industry we should emulate because he moved books.

    Top-to-bottom, I think PAD's run harmed pretty much every character involved. Yes, it probably kept Arthur alive during that time, but that's its only saving grace. Considering he didn't disappear after Sword of Atlantis died and until New 52 he had no publication, I'm inclined to believe that no Aquaman book isn't worse than a trash one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    The pic I posted was intended as comparison between Mother and daughter.
    I know. I just have mixed feelings about that picture of Mera.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    "What are you crying about, Aquaman? You should be used to this sort of thing".

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Johns didn't repudiate anything David did. If anything, his run has been even more of a soap opera especially when it comes to Mera's sanity.
    Are we talking about Red Lantern Mera? Because she was pretty sane in his Aquaman run.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I mean, damn dude, if sales is the metric of doing a character favors then I guess Liefeld was a great artist in the 90s and remains one of the titans of industry we should emulate because he moved books.
    David's run was nothing like anything Liefeld ever wrote. For one thing, David actually gave his characters a sense of humor and his books have always been far better acclaimed than anything Liefeld ever wrote. Not that sales should be discounted given this was Aquaman we are talking about.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Showing one image out of context does not prove anything.

    And as we know Johns never maimed Aquaman or any other character.



    David maiming Aquaman is not inherently a flaw just because no one had done it before.




    Didio is also the same guy who screwed over the Milestone characters, ruined Wally West and kept trying to off Dick Grayson.



    Again, DC throwing out what a previous writer did does not mean that writer's run was bad. They've done it numerous times for no other reason based on the whims of the editors and writers at the time. David rescued Aquaman from the scrappy heap after he had spent decades as a joke because of Superfriends.




    So your argument against PAD boils down to him just not using a character he wasn't interested in but you wanted? Sorry, but that's just being petty. David is not the first nor last writer who didn't have any interest in certain supporting characters. It does not inherently make him a bad writer. If Mera didn't become an interesting character until the late 2000s despite having been around since the 1960s maybe you should take a look at what was wrong with her before that period. For every character Johns revamps, there's about three more he's screwed up.

    And no, Mera is not the most powerful DC female character.

    Johns didn't repudiate anything David did. If anything, his run has been even more of a soap opera especially when it comes to Mera's sanity.
    You are the only one who claims that Johns didn't redefine Aquaman. When he is universally acclaimed that he did. His run unlike PAD was a commercial and critical success. And he did not give Arthur a crazy ex wife, a love interest that was old enough to be his daughter, a hook hand, sons springing out from nowhere (Koryak and AJ) among the many other things and you don't call that a soap opera!

    As for PAD the two writers that followed him Abnett and Larsen distanced themselves from him to an extent that they removed that hook hand immediately and much more. And we are not speaking of years but in the months after he left. But it transpires that you hate Johns and try to diminish whatever he did

    I did not say that Mera is the most powerful female character in DC but she comes after Wonder Woman and Supergirl. She defeated the entire Justice League alone (Vol3.24) and as Batman said in that issue she wasn't even at full power - BTW it wasn't Johns who wrote that issue.

    Anyhow if you don't like Mera, this is an appreciation page of hers, so.........

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    You are the only one who claims that Johns didn't redefine Aquaman. When he is universally acclaimed that he did. His run unlike PAD was a commercial and critical success.
    Just because you hate David's run doesn't mean he did not redefine Aquaman nor that his run wasn't a critical and commercial success.


    And he did not give Arthur a crazy ex wife, a love interest that was old enough to be his daughter, a hook hand, sons springing out from nowhere (Koryak and AJ) among the many other things and you don't call that a soap opera!
    You keep throwing the word soap opera around as if this doesn't define superhero comics, let alone the numerous popular ones. NTT was a soap opera as well. And Johns had plenty of soap opera nonsense in his run and many of the other stuff he's written.

    As for PAD the two writers that followed him Abnett and Larsen distanced themselves from him to an extent that they removed that hook hand immediately and much more.

    Yeah, how'd that work out for them?

    But it transpires that you hate Johns and try to diminish whatever he did
    I could say the same of you when it comes to David. Unlike you, I'm actually capable of acknowledging any good Johns has done and I'm not pretending his run was a flop just because I have some issues with his writing.

    I did not say that Mera is the most powerful female character in DC but she comes after Wonder Woman and Supergirl.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    PAD also failed to see the potential in Mera, if she had nothing interesting going for her in the 90's same could be said before Johns. But the later was clever enough to see that potential and today she is an Awesome character, probably with Wonder Woman and Supergirl, the most powerful DC female character.

    She defeated the entire Justice League alone (Vol3.24) and as Batman said in that issue she wasn't even at full power - BTW it wasn't Johns who wrote that issue.
    Grail did the same thing in Darkseid War under Johns's pen.


    Anyhow if you don't like Mera, this is an appreciation page of hers, so.........
    Who said I hated her? At what point did I ever say I hated her?

  11. #56
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Just because you hate David's run doesn't mean he did not redefine Aquaman nor that his run wasn't a critical and commercial success.




    You keep throwing the word soap opera around as if this doesn't define superhero comics, let alone the numerous popular ones. NTT was a soap opera as well. And Johns had plenty of soap opera nonsense in his run and many of the other stuff he's written.




    Yeah, how'd that work out for them?



    I could say the same of you when it comes to David. Unlike you, I'm actually capable of acknowledging any good Johns has done and I'm not pretending his run was a flop just because I have some issues with his writing.







    Grail did the same thing in Darkseid War under Johns's pen.



    Who said I hated her? At what point did I ever say I hated her?
    Come on Mention the soap opera stuff Johns did in his Aquaman run?

    If PAD did a great job Aquaman's reputation would have been rehabilitated and Johns would have not been needed.
    You are contradicting yourself.

    No PAD Aquaman was no commercial success and neither critical. Nobody relates to his run and its has been pretty much repudiated by all those that followed. While with Johns all those that followed him, kept in his footsteps, with exception of Bunn and we have seen the results.

    Its Not true that I diminish all that David did, on the contrary I mentioned various times that PAD was good at world building and in Aquaman history, there are only two other writers that did world building Johns and KSD. But for the rest his portrait of characters was awful. His Aquaman was a middle aged man who had sons coming out from no where. Don't tell me that Koryak was a great idea? and don't justify it that it was done with some other characters.

    If you don't hate Mera it doesn't transpire that you like her, for example you diminish her strength, when its now being recognized that she is one of the most powerful female characters.
    https://www.cbr.com/most-powerful-woman-in-dc/

  12. #57
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Garth was never adopted by Arthur. This isn't Bruce/Barbara we are talking about here.
    Man, that's some revisionist history.

    I mean you're free to make an appreciation thread for the abysmal PAD era of Aquaman if ya want! This one is Mera's.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-15-2021 at 12:56 PM.

  13. #58
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Man, that's some revisionist history.

    I mean you're free to make an appreciation thread for the abysmal PAD era of Aquaman if ya want! This one is Mera's.
    Exactly, and considering how little PAD did for Mera... Let's talk about the Queen of the Seven Seas! Gonna make my silver age brothers make Sophie's Choice.

    WHO DREW THE BETTER MERA? Ramona Fradon or Nick Cardy? There are no wrong answers.

  14. #59
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Exactly, and considering how little PAD did for Mera... Let's talk about the Queen of the Seven Seas! Gonna make my silver age brothers make Sophie's Choice.

    WHO DREW THE BETTER MERA? Ramona Fradon or Nick Cardy? There are no wrong answers.
    Ah man that's a rough one!

    I'm going to go with Ramona Fradon. She's tops. I wish she was still taking commissions- I would love to get a Mera sketch by her. Nick Cardy's THE CREATURE THE DEVOURED DETRIOT cover on A-Man #56 is a hardcore favourite cover of mine though (Mera ain't on it, but felt like mentioning it).
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-15-2021 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    Come on Mention the soap opera stuff Johns did in his Aquaman run?
    Arthur's feud with Black Manta, his brother being his enemy, Black Manta having a son that came out of nowhere.

    If PAD did a great job Aquaman's reputation would have been rehabilitated and Johns would have not been needed.


    You are contradicting yourself.
    No I am not. David got the ball rolling on rescuing Aquaman from the scrappy heap. It didn't happen over night but he was very much instrumental in Aquaman's popularity rising.

    No PAD Aquaman was no commercial success and neither critical.
    Citation needed.

    Nobody relates to his run and its has been pretty much repudiated by all those that followed.
    Repeating something does not make it true.

    While with Johns all those that followed him, kept in his footsteps, with exception of Bunn and we have seen the results.
    Again, David's run not being followed up on is not proof it was bad. I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse here.


    Its Not true that I diminish all that David did, on the contrary I mentioned various times that PAD was good at world building and in Aquaman history, there are only two other writers that did world building Johns and KSD. But for the rest his portrait of characters was awful. His Aquaman was a middle aged man who had sons coming out from no where. Don't tell me that Koryak was a great idea? and don't justify it that it was done with some other characters.
    You really are one of those people who thinks hyperbole makes for a good argument aren't you? AJ being Aquaman's son wasn't even clear and Koryak isn't any worse an idea than Damian or Jackson.

    If you don't hate Mera it doesn't transpire that you like her, for example you diminish her strength, when its now being recognized that she is one of the most powerful female characters.
    https://www.cbr.com/most-powerful-woman-in-dc/
    So, because I said Mera is not the most powerful female in the DCU, it means I'm diminishing her strength? Are you for real?

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