Danny Rand: Iron Fist Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

I thought it self evident that I was discussing modern trends. Like how Kirkman said it was important that his main character of Firepower was Asian

Although he looks pretty white passing in my opinion. You'd be forgiven for not realizing he's Asian until you see what his mom looked like.

Well in Nick Fury’s case, that was more so synergy when it came to them bringing a black Nick Fury to 616. And it’s not as though that version of Fury came out of nowhere considering that Ultimate had been using that version for a couple of years at the time and the MCU had been blending aspects of 616 and Ultimate in its early years. This Iron Fist is just out of the blue though and feels like an annoying trend that’s been going on lately of creating a legacy character with no establishment and just replacing the person who is known for the mantle with it

Not that the black Fury we ended up with in 616 was anything like what people were expecting.

[Ascended]

There's a lot of frustration here. But I strive to find the positives. Perhaps this new Iron Fist will make amends. Maybe Danny Rand can redeem himself in the eyes of critics. Maybe there's a way to please all Iron Fist fans and non-Iron Fist fans. As I've always done, I'm just keeping those Iron Fists crossed.

Pretty much my stance. I'm hoping that they do right by Danny, that this gets attention from non-fans while also doing right by what has come before. Hell, when it comes to Iron Fist I'm practically a non-fan myself; I like him with Luke far more than I like him on his own, even though I adore the Kun Lun setting and the mythology behind it.

This "could" be good. Or it could be a crap gimmick. But I'm hoping it's good.

Would you rather they'd cast an expert martial artist who couldn't act? Though I suppose they could've used a Power Ranger, the actors for that get training before filming starts so they'd at least know the basics

If I recall correctly there were time limits on the first season of Iron Fist, so Finn didn't have time to hit the gym or get a lot of fight training in. More of a problem with circumstance than something they just overlooked. And if my choices are "bad actor who can fight" and "good actor who can't fight" I'll take the good actor. We saw what Hayden Christianson did to Anakin Skywalker, and stunt doubles are a thing, so I'll take the guy who can act over the guy who can fight every time.

Exactly. That would be a marketing fiasco. Why name him after a much less popular brand? I get Iron Fist tends to sell more comics, but Marvel is all about the synergy.

It'd be easy to call a new book "Shang Chi: the Iron Fist" and benefit from Shang's increased profile as well as Iron Fist's higher direct market sales power (such as it is, not like either IP can usually carry a solo). Both names are right there, easy to see for fans of either IP. Hell, the movie having so much mythological stuff in it might even be a driving force behind giving Shang the iron fist; synergy.

Again, not saying it's a *good* idea but this particular thing isn't actually a hurdle.

Given that the direct market almost never benefits from larger media adaptations it's not something the publishers should even think much about anyway. Shang Chi's film could have made a trillion dollars and the comics likely still wouldn't see much of a sales increase. But that's never stopped Marvel from chasing synergy anyway.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I was hoping Danny would pop up in Shang's title. The Yang run is more of a team-up/versus book. So having an issue devoted to Danny and Shang would be cool.

[John Venus]

I don't think Shang Chi needs to be Iron Fist. He's got enough stuff on his own in the spy/martial arts genre and the MCU has expanded his sandbox by giving him the Mandarin and the Ten Rings.

The MCU has successfully managed to elevate Wong and the Mandarin. Shang Chi showed that an immortal warlord who wields the power of magical rings granted to him by alien space dragons is actually a pretty cool concept once you remove the Yellow Peril elements that have plagued the character so long. They've successfully humanized the Mandarin and turned Wong from a lowly man servant to a sorcerer who is on an equal footing with Strange.

The same could be done for Iron Fist if they could somehow cut off the 'White Savior' aspect of the IF mythos. Because K'unn L'unn, the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven, the Steel Serpeant and Shao Lao are all awesome and bad ass that deserves to be done right on screen.

If I recall correctly there were time limits on the first season of Iron Fist, so Finn didn't have time to hit the gym or get a lot of fight training in. More of a problem with circumstance than something they just overlooked. And if my choices are "bad actor who can fight" and "good actor who can't fight" I'll take the good actor. We saw what Hayden Christianson did to Anakin Skywalker, and stunt doubles are a thing, so I'll take the guy who can act over the guy who can fight every time.

You would have a point but Finn's co-star Jessica Henwick had no experience with martial arts either but she put in more time and effort and as a result her scenes were much better than Finn's.

While I think some of the vitriol against Finn was a bit too much at times and I can't blame him for jumping at the opportunity to star in something as lucrative as Marvel, he does deserve flack for not adequately preparing to play this character.

[John Venus]

I was hoping Danny would pop up in Shang's title. The Yang run is more of a team-up/versus book. So having an issue devoted to Danny and Shang would be cool.

Seconded.

10char

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think Shang Chi needs to be Iron Fist. He's got enough stuff on his own in the spy/martial arts genre and the MCU has expanded his sandbox by giving him the Mandarin and the Ten Rings.

The MCU has successfully managed to elevate Wong and the Mandarin. Shang Chi showed that an immortal warlord who wields the power of magical rings granted to him by alien space dragons is actually a pretty cool concept once you remove the Yellow Peril elements that have plagued the character so long. They've successfully humanized the Mandarin and turned Wong from a lowly man servant to a sorcerer who is on an equal footing with Strange.

The same could be done for Iron Fist if they could somehow cut off the 'White Savior' aspect of the IF mythos. Because K'unn L'unn, the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven, the Steel Serpeant and Shao Lao are all awesome and bad ass that deserves to be done right on screen.

Cutting Danny off from the white savior trope would be so damn easy if they just stopped presenting Kun Lun as a city of Asians with issues Americans associate with some Asian cultures (treatment of women).

I don't recall anyone ever saying Kun Lun was based on any Asian myth, so no appropriation there. It's Iron Fist's to own and alter as it suits his character.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Cutting Danny off from the white savior trope would be so damn easy if they just stopped presenting Kun Lun as a city of Asians with issues Americans associate with some Asian cultures (treatment of women).

I don't recall anyone ever saying Kun Lun was based on any Asian myth, so no appropriation there. It's Iron Fist's to own and alter as it suits his character.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Mountains

It's the name of a real life myth/location so it's harder to disassociate. Granted I rather get rid of the Rand-corporation than Kun Lun.

To me, I rather make Danny mixed race and have one of his parents come from Kun Lun. I prefer his mom because she doesn't have a huge role in the stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Mountains

It's the name of a real life myth/location so it's harder to disassociate. Granted I rather get rid of the Rand-corporation than Kun Lun.

To me, I rather make Danny mixed race and have one of his parents come from Kun Lun. I prefer his mom because she doesn't have a huge role in the stories.

lol, that's the first I'm seeing of this.

Alter that, then. Revamp Iron Fist's home town is still a step they need to take. Make the place more diverse, and have some non Asian Iron Fists.

[Ascended]

You would have a point but Finn's co-star Jessica Henwick had no experience with martial arts either but she put in more time and effort and as a result her scenes were much better than Finn's.

While I think some of the vitriol against Finn was a bit too much at times and I can't blame him for jumping at the opportunity to star in something as lucrative as Marvel, he does deserve flack for not adequately preparing to play this character.

Memory is vague but I wanna say Finn was tied up with Game of Thrones, or some other project, and had a short window before filming on Iron Fist began. So if that's true then Finn can't be totally blamed for things. But if I'm wrong, or even if I'm right and Finn was just lazy with the short amount of training time he did have, then yeah he deserves criticism for it. If you take a role playing a martial arts master and don't put in the effort for fight training you deserve to fail.

And I agree the blowback got out of proportion a lot of the time, and I didn't even like the show.

[Panic]

You would have a point but Finn's co-star Jessica Henwick had no experience with martial arts either but she put in more time and effort and as a result her scenes were much better than Finn's.

While I think some of the vitriol against Finn was a bit too much at times and I can't blame him for jumping at the opportunity to star in something as lucrative as Marvel, he does deserve flack for not adequately preparing to play this character.

That's not entirely true though, is it? I mean Jessica Henwick was trained in martial arts choreography for Spirit Warriors, the BBC children's show she starred in as her first big break. She may not have actually had real competitive kung fu training, but if you watch the backstage video she was trained in Wushu by the show's martial arts master for four weeks before filming, so the 'no martial arts training' is at best an exaggeration. I think Iron Fist's martial arts choreographer was kind of throwing Finn under the bus with that remark. I think Finn was probably a bit slack, whilst Jessica is very much a type-A personality, but he had a much steeper learning curve than she did.

Edit: at around 5.50 they talk about her training for the martial arts moves:

[Tien Long]

Cutting Danny off from the white savior trope would be so damn easy if they just stopped presenting Kun Lun as a city of Asians with issues Americans associate with some Asian cultures (treatment of women).

As for the white savior trope, I've had my issues with it. A white person goes to a foreign land and becomes the best. That automatically means that the indigenous or native peoples are inferior and stupid..............I never got that vibe from Danny. I never saw him insult, make fun of, or throw shade on the people of K'un Lun. If people saw otherwise, I think they were projecting too much. To me, a non-Asian becoming the best at something Asian, that's to be celebrated. Because there was a time when non-Asians saw Asian culture as backward and stupid. There were times when Chinese excluded non-Chinese from learning Kung Fu (this wasn't just in America by the way.) Yes Danny is white. However, that opened the door for others to learn Asian culture. And eventually, stand up for Asians.

If we are talking about power dynamics, that Danny has the privilege and the others don't, that he gets the spotlight and others don't, again I don't see how excluding Danny helps resolve that imbalance. That creates resentment. Promoting Shang-Chi, now that's how you solve the imbalance.

Still, I've always been supportive of an Asian taking over the Iron Fist role. First off, it's been done. (Remember folks, Danny is only the 60 something Iron Fist. There were a ton of other, Asian Iron Fists before Danny. There will be a ton of Asian Iron Fists after Danny dies). Secondly, while there's nothing wrong with an a white guy becoming the best at a martial art, there is an issue when it's the ONLY story told. And that I can see is a problem. When that story is told again and again, that is what causes people to feel unseen and unheard. When I saw Finn Jones play Danny and have that intense romantic relationship with Jessica Henwick's Colleen Wing, I was cool with it. But I also felt dejected. Because in America, you never saw the Asian guy like me hook up with the attractive girl, whether white, Asian, Black, Latina, etc.

So yes, changing the story, increasing that story, where Asians are in a lead role, like an Iron Fist, I support that. When it's done not out of excluding another, but uplifting another, that's what will work.

[Tien Long]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Mountains

It's the name of a real life myth/location so it's harder to disassociate. Granted I rather get rid of the Rand-corporation than Kun Lun.

Thanks for pointing that out, bro. Yep, K'un Lun figures in Chinese mythology. It's actually a rather old myth, dating back millennia. There used to be incense burners shaped like the sacred mountains where the immortals dwelled, like a K'un Lun, that were placed in Han dynasty tombs:

Pretty much my stance. I'm hoping that they do right by Danny, that this gets attention from non-fans while also doing right by what has come before. Hell, when it comes to Iron Fist I'm practically a non-fan myself; I like him with Luke far more than I like him on his own, even though I adore the Kun Lun setting and the mythology behind it.

This "could" be good. Or it could be a crap gimmick. But I'm hoping it's good.

Thanks for the shout out, bro.

If I recall correctly there were time limits on the first season of Iron Fist, so Finn didn't have time to hit the gym or get a lot of fight training in. More of a problem with circumstance than something they just overlooked. And if my choices are "bad actor who can fight" and "good actor who can't fight" I'll take the good actor. We saw what Hayden Christianson did to Anakin Skywalker, and stunt doubles are a thing, so I'll take the guy who can act over the guy who can fight every time.

I liked Finn's acting. Dude sold me on that the second episode of season 1. Was he a victim of circumstance and scheduling conflict? I'll keep an open mind.

That's not entirely true though, is it? I mean Jessica Henwick was trained in martial arts choreography for Spirit Warriors, the BBC children's show she starred in as her first big break. She may not have actually had real competitive kung fu training, but if you watch the backstage video she was trained in Wushu by the show's martial arts master for four weeks before filming, so the 'no martial arts training' is at best an exaggeration. I think Iron Fist's martial arts choreographer was kind of throwing Finn under the bus with that remark. I think Finn was probably a bit slack, whilst Jessica is very much a type-A personality, but he had a much steeper learning curve than she did.

Edit: at around 5.50 they talk about her training for the martial arts moves:

Yeah, that was something I considered as well. Henwick did have some type of action experience before Iron Fist.

[Ascended]

I liked Finn's acting. Dude sold me on that the second episode of season 1. Was he a victim of circumstance and scheduling conflict? I'll keep an open mind.

I just want to emphasize that I vaguely recall hearing something along these lines back when season 1 was first out. My memory could be off, or it could have just been a rumor, or who knows what. Point is, take my comments here with a grain of salt.

I did think Finn was a solid casting choice though. He had the right look and did well in Game of Thrones. I'd have liked to see him tackle Danny with the full power of Marvel Studios behind him; better material to work with, better/more training, etc.

[Writerblog]

That's not entirely true though, is it? I mean Jessica Henwick was trained in martial arts choreography for Spirit Warriors, the BBC children's show she starred in as her first big break. She may not have actually had real competitive kung fu training, but if you watch the backstage video she was trained in Wushu by the show's martial arts master for four weeks before filming, so the 'no martial arts training' is at best an exaggeration. I think Iron Fist's martial arts choreographer was kind of throwing Finn under the bus with that remark. I think Finn was probably a bit slack, whilst Jessica is very much a type-A personality, but he had a much steeper learning curve than she did.

Edit: at around 5.50 they talk about her training for the martial arts moves:

This looks really old, if you dont practice you probably "forget" about it. Finn was really that bad on Martial arts, they should at least put a actor who could do something convincing. Instead we got some memes about how embarassing he was.

[Digifiend]

Spirit Warriors aired in 2010.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit...rs_(TV_series)

Benedict Wong, who went on to play Wong in Doctor Strange, is also in it.