Danny Rand: Iron Fist Appreciation 2021

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think the best path for Danny now would be if he pulls a Nightwing and creates his own identity (Iron Wing? Iron Dragon?) which is totally his own and represents the fact that he doesn't feel like he fully belongs in either of the worlds he lives in.

I disagree because Danny feels more of an Outsider to Kun Lun than Earth. He found his place as a Defender of NY with Luke Cage and the others.

It was more applicable to his introduction and early years than who he is currently. Right now he's more like Tim Drake. Both characters outgrew their initial niche and need new directions to explore.

I'm not sure a name change is gonna help Danny. He's been the weak part of Iron Fist to me. But him trying to find a new ID is a good theme to explore- reinvention.

[taozen]

The really sad part is that this is the most active this page has been because of him walking away from the mantle. We just didn't get many great stories with Danny in the past 20 years. Immortal Iron Fist was great and it opened up the story telling possibilities but none of the writers since really dove into the new lore. I thought there were a treasure trove of stories utilizing the Book of the Iron Fist and the other Immortal Weapons. What a waste.

[Hypestyle]

I would love a series where we see him running the day to day at his company and trying to hostilely take over villainous corporations like A.I.M. or Roxxon.

It would be so dope to see him against Dario Agger or the leader of Madripoor

a corporate-culture superhero that is not Batman. Make it happen!

[Panic]

The really sad part is that this is the most active this page has been because of him walking away from the mantle. We just didn't get many great stories with Danny in the past 20 years. Immortal Iron Fist was great and it opened up the story telling possibilities but none of the writers since really dove into the new lore. I thought there were a treasure trove of stories utilizing the Book of the Iron Fist and the other Immortal Weapons. What a waste.

I feel that.

There was such a positive buzz in the Brubaker/Fraction/Aja run, but when they all jumped ship sooner than expected IF never regained the momentum.

[charliehustle415]

I feel that.

There was such a positive buzz in the Brubaker/Fraction/Aja run, but when they all jumped ship sooner than expected IF never regained the momentum.

Writers just didn't do anything interesting with the character at all.

Like why didn't they lean into heavenly cities and immortal weapons angle?

Like why not explore immortal weapons of other alien species? It's not like humans have a monopoly on fighting and different fighting styles.

What about heavenly cities of alien species as well, there are so many things writers could have done but didn't

[John Venus]

Okay, I know this is going to come across as a little confrontational, and really I don't want to cause trouble or pick a fight, but... IF's stunt co-ordinator didn't say "little or no" experience, he said "zero martial arts experience", which is simply not true. If he had said "little-to-no" experience I wouldn't have a problem with it, but he didn't. Now maybe he really didn't know, in which case he was simply mistaken rather than being deliberately misleading. Looking back down the thread, I can see you knew though, because I realise you were the one who first brought Spirit Warriors up. The fact that you have decided that the Spirit Warriors fight scenes aren't particularly good doesn't mean you can pretend that a months worth of martial arts training didn't happen. You were deliberately being inaccurate presumably because it packs so much more of a punch to claim she'd no experience of martial arts before; and you've massaged what the stunt co-ordinator actually said presumably to make it sound less disingenuous. It's a crappy way of arguing, imo.

On your overall point of Finn being to blame for not putting the time in, I agree that's probably true and he deserves a fair bit of the flak, I just don't like the way you've argued it.

Again, no issue with you personally, just this sort of thing bugs me.

No harm done.

Yes, there is an inconsistency in how I worded but tbf, I've been doing this debate on/off over the course of a couple of weeks.

To get back on track, here is what the stunt co-ordinator said:

“You know, [we] spent 21-22 hour days trying to make it work and having directors say, ‘Ah, no’ or having Marvel say, ‘Ah, no,’” noted Chan. “Everyone is fighting and the actor doesn’t want to train. And it’s like, ‘Guys, throw me a bone. Give me something to work with here.’”

“That is why some of our best sequences were with Jessica Henwick,” said Chan. “Because she trained four hours a day and she has zero martial arts experience. And we had great guys. Teaching aikido judo, and some kinjustsu. And then delivered some kung fu to add in there. It was just…yeah.”

https://www.superherohype.com/tv/502...fused-to-train

Now, as I've said in my last post, the failure wasn't just on the part of Finn (whether he was unable to or unwilling to train) but also on the producer, showrunner and even directors side.

As for Jessica Henwick's prior martial arts experience. You are correct that the stunt co-ordinator said that she had zero experience in it. Now, another poster pointed that she studied Wushu for 4 weeks for Spirit Warriors. Now remember, she was 16 in 2009 when she was cast in Spirit Warriors and 24 when she was cast as Colleen Wing in Iron Fist. How much she retained that depends on how much she kept at it after Spirit Warriors. She also played Nymera Sands for Games of Thrones (Finn was also a part of that show) for which she had to learn how to use a bullwhip. For IF, the stunt co-ordinator listed aikido, judo, kinjustsu and kung fu which are very different styles and disciplines compared to wushu or using a bullwhip. So maybe she was able to pick up some stuff easier because she had some prior experience but others she had zero experience in hence the stunt co-ordinator's comment (plus I don't expect people to be 100% literal all the time).

I disagree because Danny feels more of an Outsider to Kun Lun than Earth. He found his place as a Defender of NY with Luke Cage and the others.

It was more applicable to his introduction and early years than who he is currently. Right now he's more like Tim Drake. Both characters outgrew their initial niche and need new directions to explore.

I'm not sure a name change is gonna help Danny. He's been the weak part of Iron Fist to me. But him trying to find a new ID is a good theme to explore- reinvention.

I....don't think we are on the opposite page on this. Danny does need a different direction. Create a new identity for himself.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

a corporate-culture superhero that is not Batman. Make it happen!

You forgot Iron Man. Christopher Cantwell from Iron Man might be a good pick for this story arc. He has experience writing business drama from his show "Halt and Catch Fire".

The really sad part is that this is the most active this page has been because of him walking away from the mantle. We just didn't get many great stories with Danny in the past 20 years. Immortal Iron Fist was great and it opened up the story telling possibilities but none of the writers since really dove into the new lore. I thought there were a treasure trove of stories utilizing the Book of the Iron Fist and the other Immortal Weapons. What a waste.

I feel that.

There was such a positive buzz in the Brubaker/Fraction/Aja run, but when they all jumped ship sooner than expected IF never regained the momentum.

Writers just didn't do anything interesting with the character at all.

Like why didn't they lean into heavenly cities and immortal weapons angle?

Like why not explore immortal weapons of other alien species? It's not like humans have a monopoly on fighting and different fighting styles.

What about heavenly cities of alien species as well, there are so many things writers could have done but didn't

Plus Danny was getting married to Misty and having a kid. He opened up a martial arts Dojo with Colleen. And Kun Lun is easier to access because their is a portal he could use. The latter is a boon because it makes it easier to travel between Kun Lun and earth.

No harm done.

Yes, there is an inconsistency in how I worded but tbf, I've been doing this debate on/off over the course of a couple of weeks.

To get back on track, here is what the stunt co-ordinator said:





https://www.superherohype.com/tv/502...fused-to-train

Now, as I've said in my last post, the failure wasn't just on the part of Finn (whether he was unable to or unwilling to train) but also on the producer, showrunner and even directors side.

As for Jessica Henwick's prior martial arts experience. You are correct that the stunt co-ordinator said that she had zero experience in it. Now, another poster pointed that she studied Wushu for 4 weeks for Spirit Warriors. Now remember, she was 16 in 2009 when she was cast in Spirit Warriors and 24 when she was cast as Colleen Wing in Iron Fist. How much she retained that depends on how much she kept at it after Spirit Warriors. She also played Nymera Sands for Games of Thrones (Finn was also a part of that show) for which she had to learn how to use a bullwhip. For IF, the stunt co-ordinator listed aikido, judo, kinjustsu and kung fu which are very different styles and disciplines compared to wushu or using a bullwhip. So maybe she was able to pick up some stuff easier because she had some prior experience but others she had zero experience in hence the stunt co-ordinator's comment (plus I don't expect people to be 100% literal all the time).



I....don't think we are on the opposite page on this. Danny does need a different direction. Create a new identity for himself.

Oh ok.

I'd settle for him joining SWORD or SHIELD as an agent.

[SecretWarrior]

I'm hoping the next Iron Fist is a native English-speaker, so that not all of Marvel's Asian males come across as foreigners to the West.

[charliehustle415]

I'm hoping the next Iron Fist is a native English-speaker, so that not all of Marvel's Asian males come across as foreigners to the West.

Good point, I think save for Amadeus most of the other prominent Asians are non native English speaker

[HsssH]

Plus Danny was getting married to Misty and having a kid. He opened up a martial arts Dojo with Colleen. And Kun Lun is easier to access because their is a portal he could use. The latter is a boon because it makes it easier to travel between Kun Lun and earth.

That ended up being one weird story. Swierczynski in my opinion was really wrong guy to follow on Brubaker/Fraction/Aja and when his run ended Danny had zero momentum.

[Spiderfan001]

The really sad part is that this is the most active this page has been because of him walking away from the mantle. We just didn't get many great stories with Danny in the past 20 years. Immortal Iron Fist was great and it opened up the story telling possibilities but none of the writers since really dove into the new lore. I thought there were a treasure trove of stories utilizing the Book of the Iron Fist and the other Immortal Weapons. What a waste.

This, hit the nail on the head

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

That ended up being one weird story. Swierczynski in my opinion was really wrong guy to follow on Brubaker/Fraction/Aja and when his run ended Danny had zero momentum.

I disagree.

I actually prefer his part of the run. It felt more character focused to me. The first 16 issues were fun but felt more like a cool lore dump. Danny gets overshadowed by Orson and the Immortal Weapons.

[Panic]

The Brubaker/Fraction run (actually, I'll just refer to Fraction from now on, Brubaker has said he was only really on the credits to make it more marketable, it was largely Fraction in the driver's seat) with that stylish Aja art was great, but it did have some problems. One issue was, as mentioned by kenway above me, Danny often takes a backseat to Orson Randall and the Immortal Weapons. And I think part of this is that Fraction wasn't really an Iron Fist fan, and was way more interested in his own creations. I mean, so much of the run has Danny being talked down to by Orson, or Danny watching the Immortal Weapons... even his fight against Fat Cobra ends with Danny losing, and then doesn't give him an opportunity to redress the balance. For that matter, even long-time big bad guy Steel Serpent gets smacked down by Fraction's John Aman. The run kind of became a stealth showcase for Fraction's babies, and whilst I love that Fraction created new characters for the IF universe, I think the balance was a little off. It can be bad if a writer is too much in love with the hero he's been assigned to write, but I think it's equally bad if he has little enthusiasm for the central character and brings in what are essentially new leads for the story.

I feel Kaare Andrews was similar but worse in that respect.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-avengers-...-ant-man-thor/

Avengers Forever teases a different Thor and I hope it's Danny.

Random thought but it would be cool.

[Panic]

Ugh!

10 chars